The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.

[Golden Duck]

17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If this is true, then it also resembles  some churches  and how their members behave  toward church leaders and even god 

If you don't like one team you swap allegiances to another or give up attending at all.

Faith is put to the test every day  If your team lets you down it can hurt

I was pointing out the difference between a church/team and individual faith/belief (in the game or in the power of god ) 

You must have difernt psychological make up to me, and to many. Even  the supporters of "wooden  spooners"  generally stay loyal( if critical )  and support each other    In a church 

 the hierarchy   is often scrutinised by the members and the various levels of the church hierarchy itself.  

Basically my point is this Humans join churches for the same reasons they join any group, but particularly sporting clubs. 

The sporting club analogy is particularly bad.  Sporting clubs are required to produce evidence on a weekly basis.  Optimism may exist at the start of a season; but, that is not faith.

No one is satisfied with the wooden spoon.  The remedy is imtense individual judgment.

The scrutiny of the various institutions was extraordinary.  There is no judgement of the individual bit of behaviour.

[Golden Duck]

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Ok that makes sense 

When i read "the christian church," I understood it to include every form of Christianity. There IS no ONE Christian church   every church is A Christian church.

All Christian churches constitute " THE christian church. "  to differentiate it from  "THE  Islamic church" or, " THE Judaic church" 

The Christian view of Heaven is not consistent within Chistianity.  Furthermore, I doubt, a generalised Christian view of heaven would even be unique to Christianity.

[jmccr8]

52 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I do agree that following Christ means more than behaviour. It goes to being like Christ in both thought and behaviour 

Neither faith, nor works, alone is enough. IMO both are essential 

Hi Walker

A Christian is one who believes that they are saved by Christ and that generally means that they share a membership/brotherhood with fellow believers in an organized structure and follow all of the bible and are not independent cherry pickers with no affiliation. Yes people can follow Christ's teachings and not make a commitment and the Christian churches do not accept them as Christian because they have not been baptized/cleansed.

[jmccr8]

50 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Wow you poor old thing  To live without hope in your life 

Hi Walker

I don't live with or for hope, I have determination and work what I know I can.

51 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

We hope to be alive tomorrow Some hope for life after death. Neither is certain or assured but t hats where hope comes in It enables us to feel safe strong and comfortable in the now.

I don't hope I am alive tomorrow, I have had a full life and enjoyed it but to be honest I don't think about if there is something after nor do I hope for it. If I wake up tomorrow then I will have things to do and if I don't then I won't have things to do and am fine with this is it and maybe somewhat thankful that it ends one day.

[Mr Walker]

On 4/12/2022 at 12:56 PM, Golden Duck said:

The sporting club analogy is particularly bad.  Sporting clubs are required to produce evidence on a weekly basis.  Optimism may exist at the start of a season; but, that is not faith.

No one is satisfied with the wooden spoon.  The remedy is imtense individual judgment.

The scrutiny of the various institutions was extraordinary.  There is no judgement of the individual bit of behaviour.

That is not how I see an individual's relationship with a sporting club.

It is more a criticism of the club (like a criticism of a church)

  My point was that football clubs meet the same; social; psychological, and spiritual needs   of human beings, as churches do ,

Optimism is indeed faith. It is a positive belief in a future, unknown and unknowable, outcome 

Like religion, sport is often referred to as,  "an opiate of the people.", and for the same reasons. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

On 4/12/2022 at 1:37 PM, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

A Christian is one who believes that they are saved by Christ and that generally means that they share a membership/brotherhood with fellow believers in an organized structure and follow all of the bible and are not independent cherry pickers with no affiliation. Yes people can follow Christ's teachings and not make a commitment and the Christian churches do not accept them as Christian because they have not been baptized/cleansed.

All true, but not definitive. You are still letting an organisation define an individual's relationship with god  Churches would like you to believe that they provide the only path to salvation but Christ said otherwise.  Faith, and belief in him, are all that are required. (but true faith will manifest in a perron's way of living )

Ps almost no church "follows all the bible " Most have reinterpreted it and rewritten their understanding of it over the millennia 

and so, again,  you don't need to be accepted by any christian church to BE a Christian  Indeed, it is harder to be like Christ, if you are a believer in some church theologies and doctrines . 

[Mr Walker]

On 4/12/2022 at 1:01 PM, Golden Duck said:

The Christian view of Heaven is not consistent within Chistianity.  Furthermore, I doubt, a generalised Christian view of heaven would even be unique to Christianity.

I agree completely. The  early Christian view of heaven and judgement evolved, at least in part, from  Egyptian and Mesopotamian theological beliefs which informed Judaism and then later, pagan views of the afterlife.  

[Golden Duck]

9 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I agree completely. The  early Christian view of heaven and judgement evolved, at least in part, from  Egyptian and Mesopotamian theological beliefs which informed Judaism and then later, pagan views of the afterlife.  

Which renders the question in OP as rhetorical. So, why was it asked.

[Golden Duck]

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That is not how I see an individual's relationship with a sporting club.

It is more a criticism of the club (like a criticism of a church)

  My point was that football clubs meet the same; social; psychological, and spiritual needs   of human beings, as churches do ,

Optimism is indeed faith. It is a positive belief in a future, unknown and unknowable, outcome 

Like religion, sport is often referred to as,  "an opiate of the people.", and for the same reasons. 

Your thoughts on sporting clubs are not what I have experienced.  Scrutiny of the individual is constant even between players.  The concept of team changes depending on which side of the white line you're on.  You can see evidence of the need for superiority over teammates at the professional level in the form of ratchet clauses and personal insight as was all over the media after Wayne's death.

Thus behaviour is not seen at Church.  No priest will say they can't find a place for a parishioner, and they can look for oppotunities for salvatiom elsewhere.

The Monday's Experts conversations don't exist at Church.

Optimism is not faith.  Optimism is hoping Australian Rugby becoming more competive against toptier nations.  Faith is that the "Australian style" that has failed for the last couple of decades will be successful this season.

[+Sherapy]

On 4/11/2022 at 8:19 PM, Mr Walker said:

Wow you poor old thing  To live without hope in your life 

We hope to be alive tomorrow Some hope for life after death. Neither is certain or assured but t hats where hope comes in It enables us to feel safe strong and comfortable in the now.

We don't know what happens after death for sure, and that uncertainty makes hope valid   You don't know that reality means there is no life after death (even though I  agree thst it is scientifically unlikely)   

Fantasy is not harmful. Indeed it is an evolved safety net of human cognition and psychology which protects us from m psychological harm caused by reality   A  person without fantasy is incomplete, unprotected,  and less likely to survive happily, than one capable of fantasy. 

and no,   there is no reason why you  cant have both.

Embrace the moment in hand while hoping for something in the future We do this all the time with everything.

  Live life to the full, without fear, but hope for another million years of such a life.

That is both normal and healthy.  

 

To live without hope is an earmark of a healthy lifestyle when one lives their life mindfully, it is a life that embraces the uncertainty, with this comes resilience, liberation, an inherent freedom. Clinging to hope is little more than clinging to much “woo about nothing” holding ones fears at bay at the most a way to cope with the life one does have as opposed to living it as it is and embracing all its polarities, embracing  the opportunities and challenges that setting aside the narratives and fantasies and facing reality for what is. 
 

I do not feel sorry for Joc, I admire how he walks his talk and as a result shares viable wisdoms and a spirit of contentment. If one is embracing the moment there is no need for hope in fact, hope is the desire for things to be something other than what they are, hence the clinging to fantasy. it is running away from that which is as opposed to accepting it, Death is a fact of life, it is what it is. You would be better served making peace with your fears by facing them try it and let us know how it goes. I will not be surprised if you share that you connect to a deep sense of gratitude and wonder for the life you do have. Just framing a clearer picture infused with compassion from one who too once clung to blue sky fantasy, there are better ways. All the best to you. 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2022 by Sherapy

[jmccr8]

On 4/12/2022 at 10:26 PM, Mr Walker said:

My point was that football clubs meet the same; social; psychological, and spiritual needs   of human beings, as churches do ,

Hi Walker

If that is true then maybe mass should be held in sports pubs so everyone can watch on the big screen while they drink beer and flirt with the girls.

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

If that is true then maybe mass should be held in sports pubs so everyone can watch on the big screen while they drink beer and flirt with the girls.

You can meet the same psychological needs with different social  activities 

eg both churches and religions have 

Hymns 

Liturgical garments.

 Regular  gatherings of people 

Competition between different teams.

Followers who range from  only just attached, to fanatical. 

Historically, many football clubs were associated with particular churches or religions 

Here is a humorous comparison

quote

Church Football

Benchwarmer - Those who do not sing, pray, work, or apparently do anything but sit.

Quarterback Sneak - Church members quietly leaving during the invitation.

Draw Play - What many children do with the bulletin during worship.

Halftime - The period between Sunday 5chool and worship when many choose to leave

Backfield-in-Motion - Making a trip to the back (restroom or water fountain) repeatedly during the service.

Staying in the Pocket - What happens to a lot of money that should be given to the Lord’s work.

Instant Replay - The preacher loses his notes and falls back on last week’s illustrations.

Trap - You’re called on to pray and are asleep.

End Run - Getting out of church quick, without speaking to any guest or fellow member.

Flex Defense - The ability to allow absolutely nothing said during the sermon to affect your life.

Blitz - The rush for the restaurants following the closing prayer.

Two-minute Warning - The point at which you realize the sermon is almost over and begin to gather up your children and belongings.

Halfback Option - The decision of 75% of the congregation not to return for the evening service.

Sudden Death - What happens to the attention span of the congregation if the preacher goes "overtime".

http://www.gospelweb.net/ChurchHumor4/ChurchMemberSimilaritiesToFootballPlayers.htm

 

 Both faith and football have an incredible power to both unite and divide, people and communities. 

[eight bits]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Two-minute Warning - The point at which you realize the sermon is almost over and begin to gather up your children and belongings.

 

[jmccr8]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 Both faith and football have an incredible power to both unite and divide, people and communities. 

Hi Walker

When I see inquisitions in footfall with players being burnt at the stake or being forced to renounce a team the as heretics then they might have more in common and I did not see beer and flirting in your playbook either.

[Davros of Skaro]

Looks like the OP dropped a turd, and left the room.

[Will Due]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:53 PM, Davros of Skaro said:

There is no sin in the Kingdom of Heaven which is the difference.

 

Since as you said, "there is no sin in the Kingdom of Heaven" which by all means is certainly true and since as Jesus said many times "the kingdom is within you" then the difference between the Church and the Kingdom is that in only one of those places control over what gets done deliberately is completely in the hands of the individual.

 

 

[jmccr8]

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Since as you said, "there is no sin in the Kingdom of Heaven" which by all means is certainly true and since as Jesus said many times "the kingdom is within you" then the difference between the Church and the Kingdom is that in only one of those places control over what gets done deliberately is completely in the hands of the individual.

 

 

Hi Will

There was no sin in the garden of Eden until they ate from the tree of knowledge so then knowledge is sin and when those that believe die and after judgement day are transformed/glorified and will live in blissful harmony. All that says to me is that ignorance is bliss in an odd sort of way 

Will there be knowledge in heaven and still no sin?

[Davros of Skaro]

24 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Since as you said, "there is no sin in the Kingdom of Heaven" which by all means is certainly true and since as Jesus said many times "the kingdom is within you" then the difference between the Church and the Kingdom is that in only one of those places control over what gets done deliberately is completely in the hands of the individual.

The difference to that fine tuning is even though the individual has The Kingdom within them chances are they will sin in some matter (high bar). While fully in The Kingdom it's impossible to sin. 

[Will Due]

2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Will there be knowledge in heaven and still no sin?

 

If the kingdom of heaven is within us, even while yet on earth, and in total control of what we do deliberately what other knowledge would we need in heaven that we don't already have now?

If the kingdom of heaven and the knowledge of its experiences (the "kingdom" being the doing of the Father's will) is already within us, then it would go to figure that the kingdom and all of it's accompanying knowledge will be within us anywhere we happen to find ourselves. Heaven certainly included as well as right here, right now.

 

 

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

 

If the kingdom of heaven is within us, even while yet on earth, and in total control of what we do deliberately what other knowledge would we need in heaven that we don't already have now?

If the kingdom of heaven and the knowledge of its experiences (the "kingdom" being the doing of the Father's will) is already within us, then it would go to figure that the kingdom and all of it's accompanying knowledge will be within us anywhere we happen to find ourselves. Heaven certainly included as well as right here, right now.

 

 

Hi Will

Apparently when in the garden of Eden man was okay with no knowledge and god and the serpent were the only ones that were clued in and it was god's knowledge that the world spun by. Everything you have said about heaven is god's knowledge and for man knowledge is his detriment that is how he got sin in the first place so it stands to reason is that either man has to give up knowledge or suspend it for things to work in heaven, it's my way or the hi-way sort of thing.

Edited April 21, 2022 by jmccr8

[Will Due]

22 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

The difference to that fine tuning is even though the individual has The Kingdom within them chances are they will sin in some matter.

 

Yes but as experience grows and the desire to gain more and more knowledge increases of what the "kingdom" is all about (literally the doing of the Father's will) after a while, there won't be as much room for doing something wrong deliberately anymore. The doing of the one will push out the doing of the other. Doing something wrong deliberately is a part of learning how to live without it. I guess it must be essential.

 

22 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

While fully in The Kingdom it's impossible to sin. 

Yeah I agree. Then there isn't any time for it.

 

 

[Will Due]

13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Apparently when in the garden of Eden man was okay with no knowledge and god and the serpent were the only ones that were clued in and it was god's knowledge that the world spun by. Everything you have said about heaven is god's knowledge and for man knowledge is his detriment that is how he got sin in the first place so it stands to reason is that either man has to give up knowledge or suspend it for things to work in heave, it's my way or the hi-way sort of thing.

 

I don't think a person has ever or can ever suspend their knowledge of whether or not they're doing something wrong deliberately.

Doing something wrong while not knowing it's wrong is an entirely different matter that I believe is not only allowed but necessary to learn and grow.

 

 

[jmccr8]

27 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

I don't think a person has ever or can ever suspend their knowledge of whether or not they're doing something wrong deliberately.

Doing something wrong while not knowing it's wrong is an entirely different matter that I believe is not only allowed but necessary to learn and grow.

 

 

Hi Will

Learn what to do what? If things are working on the god said let it be and it was theory than you don't have to build grow or do anything just say it.

What do you think transformed/glorified means if it is not a change from what we are? Adam and Eve were created in god's image and had no knowledge so things went pretty good up until man understood choice by eating from the tree of knowledge and yes a sin is only a sin when you know it is and do it anyway so if you did not know it is not a sin it was not which is what attaining knowledge cost.

What knowledge do you think you will need in heaven if everything is given it's not like you will be building that mopar to cruise the hi-ways of heaven.

[Will Due]

21 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

If you did not know it is not a sin 

 

Yes. 

But if Adam and Eve didn't have any knowledge as you've said, then they didn't commit a sin. Which completely nullifies the fall of man idea does it not?

 

 

[jmccr8]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes. 

But if Adam and Eve didn't have any knowledge as you've said, then they didn't commit a sin. Which completely nullifies the fall of man idea does it not?

 

 

Hi Will

Yes they did fall according to god he threw them out of paradise because they gained knowledge from the tree so if that is what god wants then man having his knowledge in heaven works against him and you continuously talk about god's knowledge in heaven so that is what takes president and your transformation/glorification could be the removal of man's knowledge so that they are pure. It doesn't say god is going to share his knowledge only that it will be his will and who knows you may not have will in heaven because you have no desire everything is given.