The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.

[XenoFish]

Spirituality is faith without the shackles of religion. At its most basic it is just a view that life is a little something more than chemical reactions. Which is pretty harmless, unless such a simple form of meaning making is triggering to those who's lives have none.

So I suppose a Spiritual person might operate under the assumption that.

1)Life has meaning.

2)The feeling of universal belonging.

3)That they/us are more than meat robots.

Spirituality is not religion. Religion is just codified spirituality.

[psyche101]

17 minutes ago, Will Due said:

True religion is the doing of the Father's will (The Kingdom of Heaven here on earth).

That's not abandoning others, better instruction or spiritual support. 

I don't think gods advocate such at all. 

All spirituality is, is saying I don't like your version, I'll make my own up. That actually sounds more like the false gods in the Bible that readers are supposed to avoid. 

It sounds to me like spirituality is most certainly not doing the will of the god. It's more like flipping the bird at god and saying I can do it better than you. 

Things the alleged god of the Bible has actually been claimed to have said:

 

Hebrews 10:25
Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 

Romans 12:5
... so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.

The above sounds like you are not doing gods will at all. It sounds like he approves of church and encourages people to gather.

Even Jesus of the Bible was a regular at church, yet you feel it's below you? Interesting. If Jesus existed I honestly doubt he would agree with you.

Luke 4:16 says, "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom." 

As was his custom. Therefore Jesus was a regular at church. But it's not good enough for you? That's true religion?

I seriously doubt it. It's an anti authority version of faux faith. 

Edited April 27, 2022 by psyche101

[Will Due]

6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Luke 4:16 says, "He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom." 

 

Yes, for most people, who are engaged in the business of true religion, if not all, going to Church or going to Synagogue or going to Mosque or going to any place where people of the same organized religion congregate, going there at the usual designated time is an activity that occurs regularly or at least sometimes. Even places where people congregate for non-religious reasons are places to be engaged in true religion because true religion (doing of the Father's will) is usually an act of helpful service to others.

 

You remember what he said to the woman at the well?

 

"the day is soon coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father"

 

In other words, you will worship the Father anywhere, anytime. Including Church and perhaps especially there.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2022 by Will Due

[jmccr8]

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Kings and popes are human beings, and if their followers weren't wiling to fight ,wars would not have existed 

Hi Walker

People still do what their authority demands whether they like it or not.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Not at all sure that your second point is completely true  

Oh I thought everyone a t communion  had at least a sip   

Not in the Catholic church only the priest get the wine during the service, I was and alter boy and part of my job was filling his cup.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I was raised atheist, and so wasn't encouraged to go to church groups, but all my mates reckoned that the catholic youth group on a Friday night was the best place to meet a girl   (outside of school) 

Hmm, lets see, I had religion classes 5 days a week and mass several time a week sorry but Friday evening hanging out with more religion never happened for me. I wouldn't play sports after school for the school and did only the time I had to for church and school. I didn't love doing either so the least amount of time I had to spend with people I didn't like the better.

13 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Later, when I was investigating different churches, I found many young women who wanted a relationship/marriage, but by then I was already committed  

Yes it's being open to the opportunity but, especially in the past, church was the best opportunity just to meet young  men or women You also knew something about their  beliefs moralities and values, just from them being church members. Parents (back in the day when their opinion had to be taken seriously) were usually a lot happier if you were dating a church member 

Yes I did know people from my church and they were religious for an hour on Sunday hungover or not. Maybe some people lived life the way you did and I didn't, I already told you that I spent a lot of time grounded in my youth and when I was in grade 6 had to work if I wanted to buy anything like a pair of jeans so me working was a way to get out of the yard and the neighborhood. I didn't talk much to my parents other than a yes or no and they really weren't interested in anything I might say so me not hanging with the people at church or school meant nobody was flapping their gums about what I did.

[Ove]

9 hours ago, Will Due said:

You remember what he said to the woman at the well?

"the day is soon coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father"

In other words, you will worship the Father anywhere, anytime. Including Church and perhaps especially there.

Christ said this to the Samaritan woman, because the Samaritans worshiped God on Mount Gerizim and the Jews worshiped God on Mount Moriah (Temple Mount) The true worshipers of God, will worship God in a new Tempel. The new Tempel is the body of Christ. To worship God in spirit and in truth, is to worship God through Christ.

John 14:6 “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

John 2:19 Jesus answered, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again.” “This temple took forty-six years to build,” the Jews replied, “and You are going to raise it up in three days?” But Jesus was speaking about the temple of His body

The Christians are the extended body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 "Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it."

1 Corinthians 3:16 "Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?"

Edited April 27, 2022 by Ove

[psyche101]

13 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Yes, for most people, who are engaged in the business of true religion, if not all, going to Church or going to Synagogue or going to Mosque or going to any place where people of the same organized religion congregate, going there at the usual designated time is an activity that occurs regularly or at least sometimes. Even places where people congregate for non-religious reasons are places to be engaged in true religion because true religion (doing of the Father's will) is usually an act of helpful service to others.

 

You remember what he said to the woman at the well?

 

"the day is soon coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father"

 

In other words, you will worship the Father anywhere, anytime. Including Church and perhaps especially there.

 

 

Close but no cigar Will 

Jews only worshipped in the temple. Samarians only worshipped on Mount Gerizim.

Jesus explains that, once His mission is complete, that worship will not be confined to any one place on earth. The opposite of what you are suggesting. More cohesive.

I can't see anything in there about going rogue, deciding what Gods will is and interpretation to how one sees such fit for purpose.

It's more like an apprentice deciding he doesn't need a tradesman because he can figure it out himself. That's a recipe for disaster.

I can't see true religion as abandoning the flock and revising scripture to ones personal desires. That seems anything but true religion. True religion would be more along the lines of the hard slog if Bible stories are any indication. True religion would be inclusive of regular church attendance. Tailored spirituality can create it's own boundaries. That sounds more like what you are talking about.

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

True religion would be inclusive of regular church attendance. 

 

Yes. Because true religion (doing the Father's will) is a religion within a religion (as well as sometimes, a religion outside of religion).

Doing the Father's will (true religion) is also The Kingdom of Heaven.

And The Kingdom of Heaven will never be confined to any one place on earth. 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Will Due

[psyche101]

33 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Yes. Because true religion (doing the Father's will) is a religion within a religion (as well as sometimes, a religion outside of religion).

But making it up and reinterpretation is not. 

Religion outside religion makes zero sense. It's just waffle that means nothing. Which is what happens when an apprentice tries to do something he isn't trained to do. You get confusing answers that are meaningless. Spirituality and individualism aren't especially good qualities for true religion. More for a personal spiritual view.

33 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Doing the Father's will (true religion) is also The Kingdom of Heaven.

Not it's not. It's how you get there. 

Doing someone's will is an action. Not a place. You seem terribly confused about that.

33 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And The Kingdom of Heaven will never be confined to any one place on earth. 

It's not on earth. Earth is supposed to be the test to see if you are worthy. I doubt rewriting and reinterpretation is God's will at all. If I was god, I'd be particularly annoyed at such suggestions. 

33 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Edited April 28, 2022 by psyche101

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

It's not on earth. 

 

Then explain what is meant by:

 

Your kingdom come; your will be done

On earth as it is in heaven.

 

 

 

[psyche101]

18 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

Then explain what is meant by:

 

Your kingdom come; your will be done

On earth as it is in heaven.

 

 

 

That one will succumb to gods will and enter him into your heart.

As it is in heaven is the clincher here. As it is does not indicate one place but two. You comply that the god is the highest authority in the most important place. Basically the culmination of the Bible as a whole. 

The kingdom of God isn't on earth let alone any church. Nothing indicated that. 

[Will Due]

18 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

As it is in heaven is the clincher here. 

 

Yes.

On earth as it is in heaven.

Certainly it's a matter of interpretation I suppose but I don't see how it can be missed that in order for the kingdom to come on earth (as it is in heaven) it's just a matter of the Father's will being done now. As well as in heaven later.

 

 

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

But making it up and reinterpretation is not. 

Religion outside religion makes zero sense. It's just waffle that means nothing. Which is what happens when an apprentice tries to do something he isn't trained to do. You get confusing answers that are meaningless. Spirituality and individualism aren't especially good qualities for true religion. More for a personal spiritual view.

Not it's not. It's how you get there. 

Doing someone's will is an action. Not a place. You seem terribly confused about that.

It's not on earth. Earth is supposed to be the test to see if you are worthy. I doubt rewriting and reinterpretation is God's will at all. If I was god, I'd be particularly annoyed at such suggestions. 

Excellent point, Andy.

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Because true religion (doing the Father's will) is a religion within a religion (as well as sometimes, a religion outside of religion).

Hi Will

God's will, by who's definition of god's will do you base your belief of what god's will is? You read some books that have some guys words in it and are choosing which ones to adapt to your personal needs and personality, Nothing wrong with that if you understand that it applies uniquely to you and where you live and each of us have other variables in life and tools to work with not to mention adaptability skills.

I don't believe in many things, I believe that I am having an experience of me and that I will try to be the best me that I can be. To me god is a word that describes the use of intelligence, our intelligence, I don't need to make a god to explain things and for the most part I don't care why we are here or why we are intelligent because we are so just enjoy it.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, Will Due said:

Yes.

On earth as it is in heaven.

Certainly it's a matter of interpretation I suppose but I don't see how it can be missed that in order for the kingdom to come on earth (as it is in heaven) it's just a matter of the Father's will being done now. As well as in heaven later.

I can't see how it's a matter of interpretation 

On earth

As it is

In heaven.

Two distinct places. You get to the second by subjugation to your chosen god in the first instance. In this instance, the Abrahamic god. 

You get to the kingdom of heaven by doing gods will on earth. Which actually includes church attendance from what I can tell. The building doesn't matter, those in it do. They gather to praise their god, which is his will being a jealous god and all. 

Depending on your interpretation, earth will be run like heaven after the rapture. In the meantime it's just supposed to be some twisted testing ground. 

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I can't see how it's a matter of interpretation 

On earth

As it is

In heaven.

Two distinct places. You get to the second by subjugation to your chosen god in the first instance. In this instance, the Abrahamic god. 

You get to the kingdom of heaven by doing gods will on earth. Which actually includes church attendance from what I can tell. The building doesn't matter, those in it do. They gather to praise their god, which is his will being a jealous god and all. 

Depending on your interpretation, earth will be run like heaven after the rapture. In the meantime it's just supposed to be some twisted testing ground. 

 

I understand your point of perspective. It appears that many others have the same idea about it.

But what do you think the meaning is, of the phrase "your kingdom come"?

 

 

 

[Golden Duck]

13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Not in the Catholic church only the priest get the wine during the service, I was and alter boy and part of my job was filling his cup.

It is part of Catholic Communion.

https://www.catholic.org.au/council-documents/national-liturgical-council-2/national-liturgical-documents-for-australia-1/bishops-commission-for-liturgy-2/1268-communion-under-the-form-of-bread-and-wine-1986-rev-2008-1/file

But, I would not consider a sip, even of fortified wine, as drinking at Church.

[Will Due]

18 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

On earth

As it is

In heaven.

 

Which is saying:

In one place

As it is

In another.

 

 

[Will Due]

36 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

who's definition of god's will do you base your belief of what god's will is? 

 

But that's not what's important.

It's what you believe God's will is, that's important.

 

 

[jmccr8]

26 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

But that's not what's important.

It's what you believe God's will is, that's important.

 

 

Hi Will

Is it god's will or Will's will for god? I think it's important to try to live a good life and deal with what it brings and will do so under my will because it is the one I know and answer for here in this life.

[+Hammerclaw]

36 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

But that's not what's important.

It's what you believe God's will is, that's important.

 

 

Well, if everything is predestinated, according to "God's Will" or "God's Plan" we're all playing our assigned roles and doing God's work. I was supposed to be a rakehell and shameless fornicator in my youth(which I was)and Judas was suppose to betray Christ for thirty silver coins because that was what God wanted.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Hammerclaw

[jmccr8]

48 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

It is part of Catholic Communion.

https://www.catholic.org.au/council-documents/national-liturgical-council-2/national-liturgical-documents-for-australia-1/bishops-commission-for-liturgy-2/1268-communion-under-the-form-of-bread-and-wine-1986-rev-2008-1/file

But, I would not consider a sip, even of fortified wine, as drinking at Church.

Hi Golden

Thanks, I have never seen it done but then it's been some decades since I've gone to church

[+Hammerclaw]

57 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

It is part of Catholic Communion.

https://www.catholic.org.au/council-documents/national-liturgical-council-2/national-liturgical-documents-for-australia-1/bishops-commission-for-liturgy-2/1268-communion-under-the-form-of-bread-and-wine-1986-rev-2008-1/file

But, I would not consider a sip, even of fortified wine, as drinking at Church.

Of course not. According the Doctrine of Transubstantiation, once the wine passes your lips, it's transformed into Christ's blood and the wafer into Christ's flesh. That means Catholics eat tons of Jesus, every year.

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

I understand your point of perspective. It appears that many others have the same idea about it.

But what do you think the meaning is, of the phrase "your kingdom come"?

It means the kingdom of God is allegedly the final goal. It's everything you could want it to be, and you get there through subjugation to God's word. If he says kill your son, you have to kill him to test your faith and know he goes to gods side where you may one day follow for your obedience.

Again, this clearly depends on your religion. Wether you go straight to the kingdom of wait until the rapture has passed. 

According to JWs, only one hundred and forty four thousand will go to heaven, the rest will reside on the earth under God's rule after he battles and bests the devil. 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Which is saying:

In one place

As it is

In another.

Yes, as it is, in another, clearly not the same place. 

That's actually what you posted if you read it again. You said 

In one place

As it is

In another.

Two places. Not one. Otherwise it would clearly say the earth will become the kingdom of heaven. It only implies it will be eventually very similar in law and politics.

48 minutes ago, Will Due said:

But that's not what's important.

It's what you believe God's will is, that's important.

Which is why church gatherings are supposed to be important. So you can all work together on what God wants. 

Determining that by oneself is analogous to the apprentice without a tradesman. A potentially fatal mistake.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

I understand your point of perspective. It appears that many others have the same idea about it.

Which is why true religion would require at least some church attendance. Otherwise you are dictating terms for God, which I can't see being his will. 

[+Hammerclaw]

On 4/27/2022 at 12:03 AM, XenoFish said:

Spirituality is faith without the shackles of religion. At its most basic it is just a view that life is a little something more than chemical reactions. Which is pretty harmless, unless such a simple form of meaning making is triggering to those who's lives have none.

So I suppose a Spiritual person might operate under the assumption that.

1)Life has meaning.

2)The feeling of universal belonging.

3)That they/us are more than meat robots.

Spirituality is not religion. Religion is just codified spirituality.

Not even that. Faith and Belief do not become an organized religion until a Priesthood and an ecclesiastical hierarchy are created.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Hammerclaw