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The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.


Will Due
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Posted (edited)
On 5/2/2022 at 4:33 AM, lightly said:

Top o’ the morning to you joc!     I was just talking about hope as a thought.  In life.  Aren’t thoughts real?  If I say “I hope it warms up here soon”…I’m simply expressing a thought. ..not indulging in fantasy or suffering a delusion…or lying.   If I wish someone Happy Birthday! ..it’s simply an expression of my sincere hope that they have a happy birthday.

  

Another perspective: if you say I hope it warms up here soon you are communicating a preference or something you are hoping for, this is your hope ( fantasy) because the actuality is it simply isn’t warm in the moment. I would not go as far as to say this is wrong it is simply the nature of the mind and huge aspect of the mental nature is to create narratives.

 

I think all Joc is saying is mentation is not necessarily actuality it is a representation of one’s take (perspective) mixed in will be delusion, fantasy, conditioning, beliefs, values, experiences, emotions, opinions, judgements, hope, wishes, fears, etc etc. that one holds to. Indeed, if you wish someone a Happy Birthday for you it is with the hope it is happy, but the actuality may be it isn’t a ha-pay day.. For example: For me, my narrative is an acknowledgement that it is a birthday may it be whatever it is that works for you. Some folks after a certain point do not celebrate birthdays or have a preference, some make a huge deal out of them. What a person hopes for or thinks about birthdays is their own narrative (fantasy) including mine. The actuality is one day a year the day lands on the day a person was born and this is called a birthday. Just my two cents. 

Edited by Sherapy
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for·mal·i·ty
[fôrˈmalədē]
 
NOUN
formality (noun) · formalities (plural noun) · a formality (noun)
  1. the rigid observance of rules of convention or etiquette:
    "he retained the formality of his social background"
 
ORIGIN
mid 16th century (in the sense ‘accordance with legal rules or conventions’): from French formalité or medieval Latin formalitas, from formalis (see formal).
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Posted (edited)
cus·tom
[ˈkəstəm]
 
NOUN
custom (noun) · customs (plural noun)
  1. a traditional and widely accepted way of behaving or doing something that is specific to a particular society, place, or time:
    "the old English custom of dancing around the maypole" · "custom demanded that a person should have gifts for the child"
    synonyms:
    tradition · practice · usage · observance · way · convention · procedure · ceremony · ritual · ordinance · form · formality · fashion · mode · manner · shibboleth · sacred cow · unwritten rule · mores · way of doing things · consuetude · praxis
    • a thing that one does habitually:
      "it was my custom to nap for an hour every day"
      synonyms:
      habit · practice · routine · way · wont · policy · rule · habitude
    • law
      established practice or usage having the force of law or right.
  2. BRITISH
    regular dealings with a shop or business by customers:
    "if you keep me waiting, I will take my custom elsewhere"
    synonyms:
    business · patronage · trade · support
ADJECTIVE
NORTH AMERICAN
custom (adjective)
  1. made or done to order for a particular customer:
    "a custom guitar"
Edited by Hammerclaw
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Another perspective: if you say I hope it warms up here soon you are communicating a preference or something you are hoping for, this is your hope ( fantasy) because the actuality is it simply isn’t warm in the moment. I would not go as far as to say this is wrong it is simply the nature of the mind and huge aspect of the mental nature is to create narratives.

 

I think all Joc is saying is mentation is not necessarily actuality it is a representation of one’s take (perspective) mixed in will be delusion, fantasy, conditioning, beliefs, values, experiences, emotions, opinions, judgements, hope, wishes, fears, etc etc. that one holds to. Indeed, if you wish someone a Happy Birthday for you it is with the hope it is happy, but the actuality may be it isn’t a ha-pay day.. For example: For me, my narrative is an acknowledgement that it is a birthday may it be whatever it is that works for you. Some folks after a certain point do not celebrate birthdays or have a preference, some make a huge deal out of them. What a person hopes for or thinks about birthdays is their own narrative (fantasy) including mine. The actuality is one day a year the day lands on the day a person was born and this is called a birthday. Just my two cents. 

Yup,  I’m a simple man.  :lol:   ..Glad to see you.. I dunno why, but I was a little worried and  actuality  hoping all was/is well with you .:P  Just my cent and 1/2.  

Edited by lightly
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3 hours ago, lightly said:

Yup,  I’m a simple man.  :lol:   ..Glad to see you.. I dunno why, but I was a little worried and  actuality  hoping all was/is well with you .:P  Just my cent and 1/2.  

Yes, all is fabulous for me and thank you for including me in your thoughts. Warm regards to you and your wife. :wub:

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Forgive me Will ..for straying way off topic.    Maybe I am a bit odd, because in my mind and heart..thoughts and feelings are every bit as real and actual as whatever they represent.   I have ‘written’ song lyrics and their melody..while driving.  Singing them in my head.    To me they are every bit as real and actual as when I get home and sing them out loud and write them down.    Hope, Despair, Love, Ideas, whatever …are as real to me as any Thing I can see or touch.     Ok ..I’ll try to hush up about it now.  :P

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On 5/3/2022 at 2:08 AM, lightly said:

I should have said..no one knows what will happen..In Life.   No one can see the future clearly.   So, Most seem to gravitate toward hope rather than nihilism ?   <  (I looked that word up) :P           Hope is just a sort of wish? ..while Faith is a Belief.   What one Believes could be ‘right’ or wrong!  I suppose,  but a simple,human, hope deserves no judgment or condemnation?    

As far as the sciences go, predictability is a must. 

On 5/3/2022 at 2:08 AM, lightly said:

 

        :PAnd I’m still wondering about joc’s declaration that mental processes and thoughts are not real ! ?   I guess someone should have told Einstein that E=mc2  ..was pure fantasy?   and not relevant?   …how about all the ‘thoughts’ written in all the books?   and all the thoughts that became songs?   Unreal?  :P
          …excellent point X! :)  (we posted at the same time)      Oya,  and optimism and pessimism are not fantasy either.  They are obviously real…what is in question here is their  EFFECTIVENESS.  ?

I think it's pretty clear that joc saying you can think about unicorns all day long, but it doesn't make them real.

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, psyche101 said:

As far as the sciences go, predictability is a must. 

I think it's pretty clear that joc saying you can think about unicorns all day long, but it doesn't make them real.

  Well, he stated that anything mental is fantasy and therefore, not real.   I questioned that and he backtracked and said that     well yes, thoughts are “things” and therefore, real.       All I’m saying is that  (any) thought is real.   Including hope.  

Edited by lightly
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, lightly said:

  Well, he stated that anything mental is fantasy and therefore, not real.   I questioned that and he backtracked and said that     well yes, thoughts are “things” and therefore, real.       All I’m saying is that  (any) thought is real.   Including hope.  

 

In the human experience, perhaps there isn't anything more real and significant than a person's thoughts.

 

"It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward."

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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On 5/1/2022 at 12:09 PM, lightly said:

I was ‘given’ 4 months..(if I did nothing). .to two years (no matter what I did)    to live,  4 years or so ago ^_^    My response was.  “ OK! “    I didn’t grasp at hope..or despair.   I sort of just stayed Neutral about it, and stay at peace (the best I could) and continued to feel fairly well (all treatments and things considered) ,and kept doing things that I love to do ,and loving the people I love, and living life!   I did what I was told to do and have had much better results than expected!     I know I had people ‘pulling’ for me ..and some saying a prayer now and then (which I am grateful for). and I honestly think that all helped!   (I dunno how all that stuff works,,but there is something to ‘it’)    I haven’t really prayed about it myself..(much). But ..I have uttered a few. “Thank you Lord!” s  :P    

Well said, Lightly. My mother was diagnosed with breast cancer and she embraced it and it also offered her an opportunity to forgive her own father to whom she loved deeply who died from pancreatic cancer and she was angry with him for dying and leaving her. Her cancer journey turned out to be one of the most beautiful experience of her life and she was about as religious as a person can get, yet god never came into it, her doctors sure did though, she was so grateful to them and expressed that a lot. She died of lung cancer 4 years later, passed in a month. She did not despair or hope she accepted it and used the time to wrap up loose ends. My grandmother got  breast cancer way back in the 80s and she was not in despair either she was so proud of herself for catching it early which back then led to 15 more years of life for her. My grandfather got throat cancer at 68 and was thrilled to  call it a day on his life, he chose not to do the treatment at the time due to the fact it would require removing his throat. He lived one year and lived it to the fullest and never was in hope or despair. He told me that he was ready to go. Of course, working hospice at times in my compassion care I get the great honor of being a part of the death journey and few react in despair, or hope. There comes a point as we get older that death is the end game and quality of life is the only point. 

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15 hours ago, lightly said:

  Well, he stated that anything mental is fantasy and therefore, not real.   I questioned that and he backtracked and said that     well yes, thoughts are “things” and therefore, real.       All I’m saying is that  (any) thought is real.   Including hope.  

He is saying what can exist in your mind doesn't necessarily exist on any other capacity. Thoughts are chemical reactions. That's why if you are feeling ordinary, happy thoughts can change that. 

In that sense they are real. 

What your thoughts are may well not be possible at all. 

We have this brilliant mental workshop that connects all your brain. It allows impossible thoughts, like an elephant dancing on the head of a pin. 

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

He is saying what can exist in your mind doesn't necessarily exist on any other capacity. Thoughts are chemical reactions. That's why if you are feeling ordinary, happy thoughts can change that. 

In that sense they are real. 

What your thoughts are may well not be possible at all. 

We have this brilliant mental workshop that connects all your brain. It allows impossible thoughts, like an elephant dancing on the head of a pin. 

Exactly, thoughts are a by product of consciousness, while they indeed exist as a phenomenon of the brain the content isn’t necessarily actuality when neurons fire thoughts arise this is colored by many things such as emotions, social interactions, culture, ones conditioning, one’s environment and experience, values, fears, home life  etc etc. all the latter and more create contribute to thought patterns. For ex: we see this with all of us we all have a neural signature, patterns, habits this is the hard wiring of the brain, but this doesn’t mean the content or context is anything more than an interpretation as you pointed out a large portion of what we think about is the same thing day in and day out based on the influences that trigger the neural habitual patterns, Most of it isn’t reality at all. And, if we have any kind of illnesses such as Parkinson’s or Alzheimer’s, damage from Strokes etc this will affect the quality of our brain and ability to think, even poor nutrition and lack of sleep will affect our ability to think. Great post, Andy. 

 

 

 


 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 4/12/2022 at 3:45 AM, joc said:

Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand.  

It's right in front of you.  It's right here, right now.  This is all  you have.  Right now is all you will ever have.  THIS is the Kingdom of Heaven.  

No wonder so many people miss it.  ....that was a good breath...

The kingdom of Heaven is at hand, because it is within, it is who you are, your being(ness).

If you feel inclined, place your awareness upon this being(ness), imagine ones awareness being placed upon ones awareness.

And just be...

This shall stop the mind from thinking.

Repeat.

You may find it helpful to ask, "Who am I?" every time a thought becomes apparent.

 

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On 5/5/2022 at 1:38 PM, Will Due said:

 

In the human experience, perhaps there isn't anything more real and significant than a person's thoughts.

 

"It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward."

 

 

 

I would say that it is ones feelings that lead one towards THAT, we may call GOD..

They are like a barometer, positive feelings come to those on the right path, whereas mental pain and suffering are the symptoms of a wayward misstep. 

Thoughts come and go, and are therefore unreal, (imho) and only serve to get in the way.

If you can follow your thoughts to their source!!

Feelings of love can only really lead to acts of kindness which in turn help one to gain an inner peace, which is the foundation of all spiritual paths.

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On 4/10/2022 at 12:00 PM, rashore said:

 

The Kingdom of Heaven is a theory or thought of something outside mankinds living tangible existence.

A “Kingdom” is also a government. 

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The Kingdom of Heaven is in you, and it's freaky deaky.

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Posted (edited)

I fail to see the logic, much less the morality of any government, which threatens the entirety of itself, and its subjects, with weapons of mass destruction.

Such a government should be dismissed, if not by The People, then by a Higher Power.

Jesus Christ volunteered for the job, and He gave us His credentials. He showed us His resume. Rejecting Him, in favor of the status quo will become increasingly painful. Human government will not endure the plagues that are coming. Humanity is saved, but no government built upon self annihilation as a means of defense, can or should be saved.

Edited by Raptor Witness
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The writings of every religion really seem to ‘suffer’…from translations.  And alterations.   Take the Bible (please;)  many things in it were borrowed from earlier belief systems in other languages.   Then…what? I forgot what language the Old Testament started out in..Hebrew?

anyway…then it got translated into Greek? …then what? Anyway by the time it got mangled into ‘English’ many of the meanings have been changed..from somewhat, to drastically!  Other stuff was simply added along the way ..to suit the fancies of kings and kingdoms.  
     I’m fairly sure the original concepts of ‘heaven’ or any sort of spiritual realm had nothing to do with. .. KINGDOMS ?

  

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23 minutes ago, lightly said:

The writings of every religion really seem to ‘suffer’…from translations.  And alterations.   Take the Bible (please;)  many things in it were borrowed from earlier belief systems in other languages.   Then…what? I forgot what language the Old Testament started out in..Hebrew?

anyway…then it got translated into Greek? …then what? Anyway by the time it got mangled into ‘English’ many of the meanings have been changed..from somewhat, to drastically!  Other stuff was simply added along the way ..to suit the fancies of kings and kingdoms.  
     I’m fairly sure the original concepts of ‘heaven’ or any sort of spiritual realm had nothing to do with. .. KINGDOMS ?

  

The concept had nothing to do with Jewish belief, at least not originally, but more to do with introducing elements from Greek and Roman mythology into the Jewish belief system. Hence why Sheol, the grave, becomes more and more like Hades until the belief changes enough to split the Christian Heaven from Hell. Late BC and early AD Jews and Christians were opportunistic believers and changes have continued to occur over the last 2000 +/- years. 
 

cormac

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1 hour ago, lightly said:

I’m fairly sure the original concepts of ‘heaven’ or any sort of spiritual realm had nothing to do with. .. KINGDOMS ?

 

Yeah that's right. Jesus was unable to get beyond the term "kingdom". It was too ingrained. 

However, what he repeatedly said about what the kingdom is, isn't really that hard to get. And I think it strikes the brightest chord when it is prayed "your kingdom come" when "your will be done".

Which means that the kingdom of heaven (even while still on earth) is literally just; the doing of the Father's will. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Will Due said:

Yeah that's right. Jesus was unable to get beyond the term "kingdom". It was too ingrained. 

Really? A deity stumped for words huh? 

Not your struggle to interpret something? 

9 hours ago, Will Due said:

However, what he repeatedly said about what the kingdom is, isn't really that hard to get. And I think it strikes the brightest chord when it is prayed "your kingdom come" when "your will be done".

And yet your now omitting the in heaven as it is on earth bit, which makes a distinction of two seperate places.

9 hours ago, Will Due said:

Which means that the kingdom of heaven (even while still on earth) is literally just; the doing of the Father's will. Nothing more. Nothing less.

The father is the god of the old testament, the son is supposed to have mitigated his violent nature. With a rainbow at that. Go gay Jesus. 

Which one are you actually quoting? 

I seriously doubt ad hoc preaching is any deities will. 

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11 hours ago, Will Due said:

Yeah that's right. Jesus was unable to get beyond the term "kingdom". It was too ingrained. 

Hi Will

A good teacher isn't lost for words.

11 hours ago, Will Due said:

However, what he repeatedly said about what the kingdom is, isn't really that hard to get. And I think it strikes the brightest chord when it is prayed "your kingdom come" when "your will be done".

You know Will I have in past had my mom (or others)

ask me a question then 10 minutes later tell my aunt something so radically different to what I had said that I wondered who she was talking about.;)

2000 years of people saying he said this or that is not really going to convince me that the marbles in play are his or mine.

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23 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

A good teacher isn't lost for words.

 

But it wasn't a case of the teacher being lost for words. Rather, it was a case where the teacher's words were lost as an understanding on those who were being taught.

Jesus routinely used family relations as an illustration for the purpose of instruction regarding the important things about, what in those days was regarded as "the kingdom of heaven". Here's an example of how it sometimes went:

After several hours of discussion on how the characteristics of family life are fundamental in understanding the true relationship between man and God, this question was asked:

 

“But, Master, we do not find that the Father in heaven always deals kindly and mercifully with us. Many times we grievously suffer on earth, and not always are our prayers answered. Where do we fail to grasp the meaning of your teaching?”

“Thomas, Thomas, how long before you will acquire the ability to listen with the ear of the spirit? How long will it be before you discern that this kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, and that my Father is also a spiritual being? Do you not understand that I am teaching you as spiritual children in the spirit family of heaven, of which the fatherhead is an infinite and eternal spirit? Will you not allow me to use the earth family as an illustration of divine relationships without so literally applying my teaching to material affairs? In your minds cannot you separate the spiritual realities of the kingdom from the material, social, economic, and political problems of the age? When I speak the language of the spirit, why do you insist on translating my meaning into the language of the flesh just because I presume to employ commonplace and literal relationships for purposes of illustration? 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Will Due said:

When I speak the language of the spirit, why do you insist on translating my meaning into the language of the flesh just because I presume to employ commonplace and literal relationships for purposes of illustration? 

Or, in plain language, "I'm at a loss for words."

As has already been pointed out by @jmccr8, a teacher should be able to teach. Jesus picked his students personally, or so the story goes. It's a bit much for him to complain about them when he fails to communicate.

Most people seem to get the Sermon on the Mount fairly readily (Matthew chapters 5-7). Maybe it wasn't such a great idea to pad the story out so much 1900 years later. Maybe what needed to be said had already been said. Just a thought.

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