Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.


Will Due
 Share

Recommended Posts

 

Picture a classroom filled with students taking an exam. A few fail while most pass satisfactorily.

Was the teacher able to teach?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

But it wasn't a case of the teacher being lost for words. Rather, it was a case where the teacher's words were lost as an understanding on those who were being taught.

Jesus routinely used family relations as an illustration for the purpose of instruction regarding the important things about, what in those days was regarded as "the kingdom of heaven". 

Actually it’s a case of nobody, INCLUDING YOU, knowing what Jesus really said or believed about any aspect of the Judeo-Christian faith as there is no evidence contemporary to his lifetime of his words or beliefs neither written by him nor his immediate followers, nor even the Romans. All there is is hear-say from 30+ years after his death. All that shows is that someone created a believable story, at least for the times. 
 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/16/2022 at 11:47 PM, Will Due said:

But it wasn't a case of the teacher being lost for words. Rather, it was a case where the teacher's words were lost as an understanding on those who were being taught.

Hi Will

Then he was not teaching if his followers could not understand a teacher evaluates a students skill level and if they are having trouble comprehending then either the student has no interest in the subject or the teacher is not sufficiently expressing direction.

As far as this

On 5/16/2022 at 11:47 PM, Will Due said:

But, Master, we do not find that the Father in heaven always deals kindly and mercifully with us. Many times we grievously suffer on earth, and not always are our prayers answered. Where do we fail to grasp the meaning of your teaching?”

“Thomas, Thomas, how long before you will acquire the ability to listen with the ear of the spirit? How long will it be before you discern that this kingdom is a spiritual kingdom, and that my Father is also a spiritual being? Do you not understand that I am teaching you as spiritual children in the spirit family of heaven, of which the fatherhead is an infinite and eternal spirit? Will you not allow me to use the earth family as an illustration of divine relationships without so literally applying my teaching to material affairs? In your minds cannot you separate the spiritual realities of the kingdom from the material, social, economic, and political problems of the age? When I speak the language of the spirit, why do you insist on translating my meaning into the language of the flesh just because I presume to employ commonplace and literal relationships for purposes of illustration? 

who knows who said what or if they said anything none of this was recorded in notes during class in the school of Christ by which we can compare what Jesus taught 

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
On 5/17/2022 at 9:21 AM, Will Due said:

Picture a classroom filled with students taking an exam. A few fail while most pass satisfactorily.

Was the teacher able to teach?

I know you believe that the Bible is corrupted, and you have the definitive revelation (funny how Muslims say the very same exact thing which is most convenient for the confirmation bias prone). So I know this will activate the Teflon of God in you, but with that aside.

The pseudograph 2 Peter is aware that someone is saying that the Gospels are literary fabrications.

2 Peter 1:16a

"16a For we did not follow cleverly devised myths"

Also the forger is aware that there are things in Pauls letters that does not line up with the narrative they are pushing. 

2 Peter 3:16

"16 speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."

It's strange that there are things by Paul that are hard to understand when Paul, and Pauline teachings are meant to be clear, or easy to understand.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2

"1 And so, brothers and sisters, I could not speak to you as spiritual people, but rather as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for solid food. Even now you are still not ready,"

Hebrews 5:12

"11 About this we have much to say that is hard to explain, since you have become dull in understanding. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic elements of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food; 13 for everyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is unskilled in the word of righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties have been trained by practice to distinguish good from evil."

It's not strange when one realises that the first Gospel called Mark (which the others are based on pushing the author's doctrine) is a parable, and not literal history.

Plato: Theaetetus

"SOCRATES: In the name of the Graces, what an almighty wise man Protagoras must have been! He spoke these things in a parable to the common herd, like you and me, but told the truth, "his Truth" (a book by Protagoras) in secret to his own disciples."

Mark 4:10-12

"10 When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that 'they may indeed look, but not perceive, and may indeed listen, but not understand; so that they may not turn again and be forgiven (Isa. 6:9-10).'"

Paul's Gentile inclusion theology means some will stumble while others included in order to have riches for all.

Romans 11:7-12

"7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written, "God gave them a sluggish spirit, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day. (Deut. 29:4)" 9 And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; 10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see, and keep their backs forever bent. (Psa. 69:22-23)" 11 So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their stumbling salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!"

Here's an obvious example: In Mark faith is rewarded while in 2 Kings unfaithfulness is punished. One person is lowered gets healed by the one true God while a king falls then dies for seeking other Gods.

Mark 2:3-5, :11 "3 And they came, bringing to him a paralytic carried by four men. 4 And when they could not get near him because of the crowd, they removed the roof above him; and when they had made an opening, they let down the pallet on which the paralytic lay. 5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”' "11 “I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.”'

2 Kings 1:2-4

"2 Now Ahazi′ah fell through the lattice in his upper chamber in Samar′ia, and lay sick; so he sent messengers, telling them, “Go, inquire of Ba′al-ze′bub, the god of Ekron, whether I shall recover from this sickness.” 3 But the angel of the Lord said to Eli′jah the Tishbite, “Arise, go up to meet the messengers of the king of Samar′ia, and say to them, ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Ba′al-ze′bub, the god of Ekron?’ 4 Now therefore thus says the Lord, ‘You shall not come down from the bed to which you have gone, but you shall surely die.' So Eli′jah went."

Here's some examples of Mark being influenced by Paul's letters:

Rich in Heaven

2 Cor. 8:9

"9 For you know the generous act of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich."

Mark 10:21-22

"21 Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said, "You lack one thing; go, sell what you own, and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me." 22 When he heard this, he was shocked and went away grieving, for he had many possessions."

Move Mountains

1 Cor. 13:2

"2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

Mark 11:23

"23 Truly I tell you, if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' and if you do not doubt in your heart, but believe that what you say will come to pass, it will be done for you."

Foundation/Cornerstone

1 Cor. 3:10-11

"10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building on it. Each builder must choose with care how to build on it. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one that has been laid; that foundation is Jesus Christ."

Mark 12:10-11

"10 Have you not read this scripture: 'The stone that the builders rejected  has become the cornerstone; 11 this was the LORD's doing, and it is amazing in our eyes'? (Psa. 118:22-23)"'

Pay What's Due

Rom. 13:7

"7 Pay to all what is due them — taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due."

Mark 12:17

"17 Jesus said to them, "Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were utterly amazed at him."

Body Leads to Sin

Rom. 6:12-14

"12 Therefore, do not let sin exercise dominion in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions. 13 No longer present your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and present your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."

Mark 9:43-47

"43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed than to have two hands and to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame than to have two feet and to be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, tear it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and to be thrown into hell,"

Give Plenty

2 Cor. 9:6-7, :10

"6 The point is this: the one who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and the one who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

"10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness."

Mark 12:41-44

"41 He sat down opposite the treasury, and watched the crowd putting money into the treasury. Many rich people put in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which are worth a penny. 43 Then he called his disciples and said to them, "Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. 44 For all of them have contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, all she had to live on."'

Adversarial Teachers

2 Cor. 11:13-15

"13 For such boasters are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is not strange if his ministers also disguise themselves as ministers of righteousness. Their end will match their deeds."

Mark 13:21-23

"21 And if anyone says to you at that time, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'Look! There he is!' — do not believe it. 22 False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. 23 But be alert; I have already told you everything."

Love Thy Neighbor

Gal. 5:13-15

"13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters; only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become slaves to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

Mark 12:28-34

"28 One of the scribes came near and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, he asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" 29 Jesus answered, "The first is, 'Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one; 30 you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32 Then the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that 'he is one, and besides him there is no other'; 33 and 'to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength,' and 'to love one's neighbor as oneself,' — this is much more important than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34 When Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that no one dared to ask him any question."

Be Awake

1 Thes. 5:4-11

"4 But you, beloved, are not in darkness, for that day to surprise you like a thief; 5 for you are all children of light and children of the day; we are not of the night or of darkness. 6 So then let us not fall asleep as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober; 7 for those who sleep sleep at night, and those who are drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build up each other, as indeed you are doing."

Mark 13:32-37

"32 "But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 33 Beware, keep alert; for you do not know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his slaves in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch. 35 Therefore, keep awake — for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or at dawn, 36 or else he may find you asleep when he comes suddenly. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Keep awake."'

Body of Glory

Phil. 3:21

"21 He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself."

Mark 12:25

"25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

Come From Heaven

1 Thes. 4:16

"16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first."

Mark 14:62

"62 Jesus said, "I am; and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power,' and 'coming with the clouds of heaven.'"

Cephas/Peter in Opposition

Gal. 2:11

"11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood self-condemned; 12 for until certain people came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But after they came, he drew back and kept himself separate for fear of the circumcision faction."

Mark 8:33

"33 But turning and looking at his disciples, he rebuked Peter and said, "Get behind me, Satan! For you are setting your mind not on divine things but on human things."'

Abba/Father

Gal. 4:6

"6 And because you are children, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"'

Mark 14:36

"36 He said, "Abba, Father, for you all things are possible; remove this cup from me; yet, not what I want, but what you want."'

Yeast of Evil

1 Cor. 5:6-8

"6 Your boasting is not a good thing. Do you not know that a little yeast leavens the whole batch of dough? 7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch, as you really are unleavened. For our paschal lamb, Christ, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore, let us celebrate the festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

Mark 8:15 

"15 And he cautioned them, saying, "Watch out — beware of the yeast of the Pharisees and the yeast of Herod."'

 

This is just the tip of the iceberg on the unreliability of the Gospels as historical documents, and any writting treating it as such (also saying that Paul is a corruption of it) is unaware of it's inside secret.

"Despite scholarly efforts to detect an underlying Aramaic original for Mark or Matthew, it is probable that all the evangelists wrote in the common (koinē) Greek of their day. Further, the vast majority of Hebrew Bible citations in the New Testament are taken from the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible (the Septuagint)."

"Large sections of Matthew, Mark, and Luke repeat stories about and sayings of Jesus in nearly identical words. Hence these three Gospels are referred to as the “Synoptic” Gospels (from Gk synoptikos, “viewed together”). On a linguistic level, both Luke and Matthew improve on Mark’s style, smoothing out inelegant expressions and repetitions. Luke eliminates Mark’s characteristic use of parataxis (one short phrase following another without indicating how they are related) by employing balancing particles and subordinate clauses. Matthew follows Mark’s outline, though the insertion of considerable sections of discourse material may obscure that relationship for the casual reader. Luke knows most of Mark but has no parallels to Mk 6.45–8.26; whether Luke chose to omit this section or had a different version of Mark remains unclear. Detailed analysis of the traditions shared by Matthew, Mark, and Luke provides strong support for the view that Mark provided the template that Matthew and Luke revised, both correcting and smoothing out its language and expanding the Jesus material it contained."

"While the Synoptic Gospels have a close literary relationship, the Fourth Gospel, the Gospel of John, presents a much greater puzzle. Its chronology of Jesus’s ministry differs from that of the Synoptics. In John, Jesus spends three years preaching, during which he journeys between Galilee and Jerusalem; in the Synoptic Gospels, he visits Jerusalem only once, at the end of a ministry that apparently lasted less than a year. The episode denouncing the sellers in the Temple, which enrages the religious authorities and leads to his death in the Synoptics, occurs near the beginning of the three-year ministry in John (Jn 2.13–22). John claims that Jesus’s popularity with Jerusalem crowds after he dramatically restored Lazarus to life awakened political fears for the safety of the nation (Jn 11.45–57; 12.9–11). John’s account of the passion also differs markedly: there is no agony. Conscious of his unity with the Father and the cross as his exaltation and return to preexistent glory, Jesus controls all the events;..."

The New Oxford Annotated Bible NRSV, pp. 1380-1381

ZomboMeme 18052022165959.jpg

Edited by Davros of Skaro
Grammer
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Davros of Skaro said:

I know you believe that the Bible is corrupted

 

I wouldn't exactly put it that way on its own without pointing out that there were many things humanly natural involved with how the Bible became what it is. But alright, using your terminology, the Bible is corrupted.

But taking it as a given, what's interesting to me about that (and I suspect to many others too) is that the teaching of something rather significantly true is still alive within it.

And with not too much effort, in my opinion, it's rather easy to understand what that is. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

But alright, using your terminology, the Bible is corrupted.

Hi Will,

You know those were your words when you first started in this part of the forum.:D:tu:

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

But taking it as a given, what's interesting to me about that (and I suspect to many others too) is that the teaching of something rather significantly true is still alive within it.

Yes and those truths would be about the nature of man, other than that not much can be proven about the existence of god or what god is.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

And with not too much effort, in my opinion, it's rather easy to understand what that is. 

Yes be good to others. You promote the UB in many of you posts and links and have made over the years you have said this planet corrupted the bible and the UB is the truth, not sure why you would question someone else for saying the bible is corrupted even if it is for different reasons.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

I wouldn't exactly put it that way on its own without pointing out that there were many things humanly natural involved with how the Bible became what it is. But alright, using your terminology, the Bible is corrupted.

How about "perverted"? Does that work? (btw I know you wil be thrilled that I quote from the Urantia)

Urantia

5:4.14 (68.2)  "It must therefore be evident that composite Christian theology encounters great difficulty in attaining consistency. This difficulty is further aggravated by the fact that the doctrines of early Christianity were generally based on the personal religious experience of three different persons: Philo of Alexandria, Jesus of Nazareth, and Paul of Tarsus."

 

97:8.6 (1071.4) "New Testament authors and later Christian writers further complicated the distortion of Hebrew history by their well-meant attempts to transcendentalize the Jewish prophets. Thus has Hebrew history been disastrously exploited by both Jewish and Christian writers. Secular Hebrew history has been thoroughly dogmatized. It has been converted into a fiction of sacred history and has become inextricably bound up with the moral concepts and religious teachings of the so-called Christian nations."


97:8.7 (1071.5)  "A brief recital of the high points in Hebrew history will illustrate how the facts of the record were so altered in Babylon by the Jewish priests as to turn the everyday secular history of their people into a fictitious and sacred history."

97:9.1 (1071.6)  "There never were twelve tribes of the Israelites—only three or four tribes settled in Palestine. The Hebrew nation came into being as the result of the union of the so-called Israelites and the Canaanites. “And the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites. And they took their daughters to be their wives and gave their daughters to the sons of the Canaanites.” The Hebrews never drove the Canaanites out of Palestine, notwithstanding that the priests’ record of these things unhesitatingly declared that they did."

196:2.1 (2091.10)  "Some day a reformation in the Christian church may strike deep enough to get back to the unadulterated religious teachings of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. In the enthusiasm of Pentecost, Peter unintentionally inaugurated a new religion, the religion of the risen and glorified Christ. The Apostle Paul later on transformed this new gospel into Christianity, a religion embodying his own theologic views and portraying his own personal experience with the Jesus of the Damascus road. The gospel of the kingdom is founded on the personal religious experience of the Jesus of Galilee; Christianity is founded almost exclusively on the personal religious experience of the Apostle Paul.
Almost the whole of the New Testament is devoted, not to the portrayal of the significant and inspiring religious life of Jesus, but to a discussion of Paul’s religious experience and to a portrayal of his personal religious convictions. The only notable exceptions to this statement, aside from certain parts of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are the Book of Hebrews and the Epistle of James. Even Peter, in his writing, only once reverted to the personal religious life of his Master. The New Testament is a superb Christian document, but it is only meagerly Jesusonian."

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

But taking it as a given, what's interesting to me about that (and I suspect to many others too) is that the teaching of something rather significantly true is still alive within it.

Let me take a guess at that would be. Let me have "Immortality" for $400 Alex.

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

And with not too much effort, in my opinion, it's rather easy to understand what that is. 

Yet so many worship the flesh rather than the spirit.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

If it's true (due to the influences of Philo and Paul) that Christianity became something other than what Jesus intended, the question becomes, what is the part of Christianity that is only meagerly Jesusonian?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's something for people to ponder over.

6grut8.jpg

6gi9xv.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

If it's true (due to the influences of Philo and Paul) that Christianity became something other than what Jesus intended, the question becomes, what is the part of Christianity that is only meagerly Jesusonian?

Well the basic message got through (wether Jesus existed, or not). 

You asked that what part of Christianity contains the historical Jesus. This is debated by secular scholars to this day, and not to mention the many crank books people have a Jesus this, or that in. The evidence is precarious dispite what people say otherwise.

I believe in my humble opinion that the Disciples/Apostles did believe that Jesus was killed, resurrected, and then exalted by God. Just because they believed, it does not make it true, and we should be skeptical of things presented as truth.

If only some new Book that fills in all, or some of the gaps in our knowledge came forth some how, or some way. Hhmmn... :mellow: 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, GoldenWolf said:

Here's something for people to ponder over.

Those sheepheaded Catholics are always mucking about, and ruining everybody's fun. Gee whiz!

 

 

 

20220519_200710.jpg

20220519_200740.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Well the basic message got through (wether Jesus existed, or not). 

You asked that what part of Christianity contains the historical Jesus. This is debated by secular scholars to this day, and not to mention the many crank books people have a Jesus this, or that in. The evidence is precarious dispite what people say otherwise.

I believe in my humble opinion that the Disciples/Apostles did believe that Jesus was killed, resurrected, and then exalted by God. Just because they believed, it does not make it true, and we should be skeptical of things presented as truth.

If only some new Book that fills in all, or some of the gaps in our knowledge came forth some how, or some way. Hhmmn... :mellow: 

Which IMO begs the question “who’s” message? If, for arguments sake, it wasn’t Jesus’ message but perhaps Paul’s or some others then it makes Christianity ultimately based on a lie which was NOT centered on anything Jesus said/did/believed etc. 
 

Yet literally billions take it as incontrovertible fact. 
 

cormac

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Well the basic message got through 

 

In your opinion, excluding anything from Philo or Paul, or anyone else for that matter, what is the basic Jesusonian message?

 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which IMO begs the question “who’s” message? If, for arguments sake, it wasn’t Jesus’ message but perhaps Paul’s or some others then it makes Christianity ultimately based on a lie which was NOT centered on anything Jesus said/did/believed etc. 

Jesus could be the imagination, and fervent religious belief in OT scripture (a divination of it to fulfill expectant prophecy) by the founders, but now obscured.

21 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Yet literally billions take it as incontrovertible fact. 

You should see the fanciful things apologists push as fact.

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Will Due said:

In your opinion, excluding anything from Philo or Paul, or anyone else for that matter, what is the basic Jesusonian message?

I would break down as:

We are in a spiritual family in a foreign land. We get to go back home as long as we love God, and each other. Jesus made it possible by imitating the Father who handed over the keys of Heaven for his Righteousness until Death is abolished (by Jesus).

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Davros of Skaro said:

by imitating the Father 

 

Can you elaborate a little more about this?

By imitating the Father, what do you think he did specifically and how does it fit into the context of what he meant, when he said "follow me"?

 

 

Edited by Will Due
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Jesus could be the imagination, and fervent religious belief in OT scripture (a divination of it to fulfill expectant prophecy) by the founders, but now obscured.

You should see the fanciful things apologists push as fact.

Jesus could just as well be misrepresented because, guess what, he’s already dead. Who’s gonna question a dead man that no one contemporary wrote about about his beliefs? 
 

cormac

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/19/2022 at 9:56 PM, Will Due said:

Can you elaborate a little more about this?

By imitating the Father, what do you think he did specifically and how does it fit into the context of what he meant, when he said "follow me"?

Well when God put two men in the Garden one had to be taught while the other was God's Firstborn, and was made with Divine Wisdom. 

What he did was not to seek equality with God, but emptied his powers, and humbled himself to death.

In other words what Jesus did was not to think himself equal, or better than God, and he also did not worship the flesh. So this act God gave him right of acces to God's Temple. So to follow, or imitate the one that imitates the Father means to honor God, and not the flesh.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/19/2022 at 10:43 PM, cormac mac airt said:

Jesus could just as well be misrepresented because, guess what, he’s already dead. Who’s gonna question a dead man that no one contemporary wrote about about his beliefs? 
 

cormac

Will you answer two muliple choice questions for me? Keep in mind it's a little wordy for clarity (about less than five minutes to read).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Will you answer two muliple choice questions for me? Keep in mind it's a little wordy for clarity (about less than five minutes to read).

If I can. 
 

cormac

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

If I can. 

Well people do have trouble with it which is why even though it's wordy it's simplified with two translations for each question.

In the context of what Paul wrote:

1) Who would most likely kill Jesus just for looking like, and believed to be just a human as related in the Kenosis Hymnal in Philippians? In other words who would find it a crime just for looking like, and believed to be human that's punishable by death?

Philippians 2:7-8

NRSV

"but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death —  even death on a cross."

YLT

"but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,"

A) Romans B ) Jews C) Satan

In the context of what Paul wrote:

2) Who would most likely not kill Jesus if was made known to them (without a doubt) that killing Jesus would fulfill God's preordained secret plan for mankinds salvation as per God's will? In other words who would be against eternal life for humans in that they would not follow through in killing Jesus because it would give said humans a chance at immortality?

Note: Rulers of this Age (Principalities); Rulers of the Earth realm is interchangeable with rulers of the spiritual realm to the ancient reader.

1 Corinthians 2:6-8

NRSV

"Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

YLT

"And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless, but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;"

A) Romans B ) Jews C) Satan

Taking these verses all together; We have Jesus not taking equality with the Father, but lowered himsellf taking on a flesh disguise, and ventured where it is a crime punishable by death for being a human. In this same place (Paul does not say where) of being found in human form whoever it is would not kill Jesus if it was made known to them. Whoever it is does not want the gift of immortality for mankind from the Creator. Who best describes killing humans on site, and not wanting eternal life for them?

Jews/Romans: Did they go around enforcing death sentences for the crime of looking like a flesh & blood human? If they were made known with no doubt, and whatever misconceptions they had were corrected of the plan of the Highest God (note: Romans seen their highest God Jupiter & the Jewish God Yahweh as the same deity, but they worshipped it differently)? Would they be for their own destruction, or for their own immortality (a gift from an all loving God)?

Satan: Would Satan attack flesh, and, or kill a human? Would Satan be against humans gaining a chance at immortality?

Take note:

1 Cor. 5:5 "5 you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

2 Cor. 12:7bc "7 Therefore, to keep me from being too elated, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me, to keep me from being too elated."

Gal. 4:3 "So with us; while we were minors, we were enslaved to the elemental spirits of the world."

Gal. 4:9 "Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again?") 

Psa. 78:49 "49 He let loose on them his fierce anger, wrath, indignation, and distress, a company of destroying angels."

Job 1:7 "7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."'

Edited by Davros of Skaro
Stupid emoji pops up for "B)" so I spaced them
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Well people do have trouble with it which is why even though it's wordy it's simplified with two translations for each question.

In the context of what Paul wrote:

1) Who would most likely kill Jesus just for looking like, and believed to be just a human as related in the Kenosis Hymnal in Philippians? In other words who would find it a crime just for looking like, and believed to be human that's punishable by death?

Philippians 2:7-8

NRSV

"but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death —  even death on a cross."

YLT

"but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made, and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,"

A) Romans B) Jews C) Satan

In the context of what Paul wrote:

2) Who would most likely not kill Jesus if was made known to them (without a doubt) that killing Jesus would fulfill God's preordained secret plan for mankinds salvation as per God's will? In other words who would be against eternal life for humans in that they would not follow through in killing Jesus because it would give said humans a chance at immortality?

Note: Rulers of this Age (Principalities); Rulers of the Earth realm is interchangeable with rulers of the spiritual realm to the ancient reader.

1 Corinthians 2:6-8

NRSV

"Yet among the mature we do speak wisdom, though it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to perish. But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

YLT

"And wisdom we speak among the perfect, and wisdom not of this age, nor of the rulers of this age -- of those becoming useless, but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory, which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;"

A) Romans B) Jews C) Satan

Taking these verses all together; We have Jesus not taking equality with the Father, but lowered himsellf taking on a flesh disguise, and ventured where it is a crime punishable by death for being a human. In this same place (Paul does not say where) of being found in human form whoever it is would not kill Jesus if it was made known to them. Whoever it is does not want the gift of immortality for mankind from the Creator. Who best describes killing humans on site, and not wanting eternal life for them?

Jews/Romans: Did they go around enforcing death sentences for the crime of looking like a flesh & blood human? If they were made known with no doubt, and whatever misconceptions they had were corrected of the plan of the Highest God (note: Romans seen their highest God Jupiter & the Jewish God Yahweh as the same deity, but they worshipped it differently)? Would they be for their own destruction, or for their own immortality (a gift from an all loving God)?

Satan: Would Satan attack flesh, and, or kill a human? Would Satan be against humans gaining a chance at immortality?

Take note:

1 Cor. 5:5 "5 you are to hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."

2 Cor. 12:7bc "7 Therefore, to keep me from being too elated, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me, to keep me from being too elated."

Gal. 4:3 "So with us; while we were minors, we were enslaved to the elemental spirits of the world."

Gal. 4:9 "Now, however, that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits? How can you want to be enslaved to them again?") 

Psa. 78:49 "49 He let loose on them his fierce anger, wrath, indignation, and distress, a company of destroying angels."

Job 1:7 "7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it."'

1) None of the above as the Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish religious beliefs, the Jews didn't want to be responsible for Jesus’ death themselves which is why they tried to pawn the responsibility off onto the Romans and Satan CANNOT take a life without God’s express permission. 
 

2) Also none of the above as once again the Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish religious beliefs, the Jews expected a living breathing Messiah to save them within their lifetime NOT a dying savior and Satan STILL couldn’t do anything without God’s express permission. 
 

cormac

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

1) None of the above as the Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish religious beliefs, the Jews didn't want to be responsible for Jesus’ death themselves which is why they tried to pawn the responsibility off onto the Romans and Satan CANNOT take a life without God’s express permission. 
 

2) Also none of the above as once again the Romans didn’t give a damn about Jewish religious beliefs, the Jews expected a living breathing Messiah to save them within their lifetime NOT a dying savior and Satan STILL couldn’t do anything without God’s express permission. 
 

cormac

Then who killed Jesus?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now Davros a question for you if I may?
 

Considering that the available evidence shows that El, a Canaanite Creator deity NOT related to Yahweh, a Midianite storm/mountain deity was the early Hebrews original deity and was subsumed into the merger with Yahweh under the latters name as the one and only God, after the Exile, as well as considering that Yahweh’s place under El was originally as a subordinate “son of El” with no mention of Yahweh’s having had a son named Jesus/Yeshua/Yehoshua for some 1300+ years prior to his birth then why are we supposed to believe suddenly AFTER Jesus death that he was the “Son of God”?

cormac

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Now Davros a question for you if I may?
 

Considering that the available evidence shows that El, a Canaanite Creator deity NOT related to Yahweh, a Midianite storm/mountain deity was the early Hebrews original deity and was subsumed into the merger with Yahweh under the latters name as the one and only God, after the Exile, as well as considering that Yahweh’s place under El was originally as a subordinate “son of El” with no mention of Yahweh’s having had a son named Jesus/Yeshua/Yehoshua for some 1300+ years prior to his birth then why are we supposed to believe suddenly AFTER Jesus death that he was the “Son of God”?

cormac

Did you not see what Paul wrote?

"But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

Remember that Paul is adamant his Gospel is not from humans, but from scripture, and visions/dreams (Gal. 1:11-12, :15-17, Rom. 15:4, 1 Cor. 15:3-8). A secret hidden through the ages now revealed (Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Cor. 2:6-7). Also Paul says his apostleship is by the same means as the founding Pillars (Gal. 2:6-9).

Who killed Jesus if not the Romans, Jews, or Satan?

Edited by Davros of Skaro
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.