The Christian Church/The Kingdom of Heaven.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Then who killed Jesus?

If the Bible is to be believed he’s killed for the trumped up charge of sedition, which had nothing to do with why the Jews really wanted him gone. He wasn’t the Messiah they expected and that p***ed them off. Their (Jewish) mindset was basically “the ends justify the means”.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

3 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Did you not see what Paul wrote?

"But we speak God's wisdom, secret and hidden, which God decreed before the ages for our glory."

Remember that Paul is adamant his Gospel is not from humans, but from scripture, and visions/dreams (Gal. 1:11-12, :15-17, Rom. 15:4, 1 Cor. 15:3-8). A secret hidden through the ages now revealed (Rom. 16:25-26, 1 Cor. 2:6-7). Also Paul says his apostleship is by the same means as the founding Pillars (Gal. 2:6-9).

Who killed Jesus if not the Romans, Jews, or Satan?

Paul makes a lot of claims that are unevidenced/unattested. 
 

cormac

[Davros of Skaro]

3 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Paul makes a lot of claims that are unevidenced/unattested. 
 

cormac

I am going by what Paul wrote which is the earliest Christian writings we have. You don't have to believe it.

7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

If the Bible is to be believed he’s killed for the trumped up charge of sedition, which had nothing to do with why the Jews really wanted him gone. He wasn’t the Messiah they expected and that p***ed them off. Their (Jewish) mindset was basically “the ends justify the means”.

cormac

Notice you are avoiding the question? Remember what you said about people believing things as fact?

So going by what Paul wrote: Who killed Jesus for looking like a human, and not knowing who he was because Jesus was in a flesh disguise. Also they would not do it if they knew it was part of God's plan of salvation.

Who killed Jesus?

[cormac mac airt]

5 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

I am going by what Paul wrote which is the earliest Christian writings we have. You don't have to believe it.

Notice you are avoiding the question? Remember what you said about people believing things as fact?

So going by what Paul wrote: Who killed Jesus for looking like a human, and not knowing who he was because Jesus was in a flesh disguise. Also they would not do it if they knew it was part of God's plan of salvation.

Who killed Jesus?

The Romans killed Jesus, but it had NOTHING to do with any form he took and it had NOTHING to do with God’s plan. It had EVERYTHING to do with the Jews believing that they had a pretender in their midst who was attempting to overturn their proverbial applecart and they couldn’t let that stand. 
 

cormac

[Will Due]

 

And that all sounds very familiar with what's happening today instead this time, it involves the pseudo religion of politics.

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Romans killed Jesus, but it had NOTHING to do with any form he took and it had NOTHING to do with God’s plan. It had EVERYTHING to do with the Jews believing that they had a pretender in their midst who was attempting to overturn their proverbial applecart and they couldn’t let that stand. 
 

cormac

So would you agree that from what Paul wrote (about Jesus being killed for being found in human form, and that the killer, or killers wouldn't do it if they new the plan) makes no sense with the Gospel narratives?

[Davros of Skaro]

5 minutes ago, Will Due said:

And that all sounds very familiar with what's happening today instead this time, it involves the pseudo religion of politics.

Are you a pseudophile?

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Davros of Skaro said:

So would you agree that from what Paul wrote (about Jesus being killed for being found in human form, and that the killer, or killers wouldn't do it if they new the plan) makes no sense with the Gospel narratives?

I believe that much of what Paul wrote was a bunch of horse crap. He claimed his authority originated from Jesus AFTER he died. The Jews under their own laws were prohibited from any attempt to converse with the dead which means his authority was sacrilegious. 
 

cormac

[Davros of Skaro]

7 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I believe that much of what Paul wrote was a bunch of horse crap. He claimed his authority originated from Jesus AFTER he died. The Jews under their own laws were prohibited from any attempt to converse with the dead which means his authority was sacrilegious. 
 

cormac

God is not dead to a Jew.

Does this bit of information below make more sense in light of what Paul wrote?

To Paul a physical resurrection does not inherit God's Kingdom (The Synoptics & John have a flesh resurrected Jesus).

1 Cor. 15:49 "49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

Dirty, or impoverished clothing, and clean, or gleaming clothing were seen as metaphors for Earthly/spiritual bodies in the ancient world. (Mark 14:51-52 "A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked.", 16:5 "As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.")

Rom. 4:25 "who was betrayed/handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification." Note: 1 Cor. 11:23 "betrayed" is contextually reciprocal with "handed over" in Greek (Rom. 1:24, :26, :28).

The verse Rom. 1:3b "who was descended from David according to the flesh" (2 Sam. 7:12) is good evidence for historicity. But 2 Sam. 7:12c "who shall come forth from your body," can mean God made a flesh body from David's semen for Jesus (it was a belief that the male seed contained the whole body). This is a convenient way to fulfill messianic prophecy for a celestial event instead of on Earth.

Zec. 3:1-9 "1 Then he showed me the high priest Joshua/Jesus (Savior) standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan (Adversary) standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this man a brand plucked from the fire?" 3 Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." And to him he said, "See, I have taken your guilt away from you, and I will clothe you with festal apparel." 5 And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with the apparel; and the angel of the LORD was standing by.

6 Then the angel of the LORD assured Joshua, saying 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here. 8 Now listen, Joshua, high priest, you and your colleagues who sit before you! For they are an omen of things to come: I am going to bring my servant the Branch. 9 For on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven facets, I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the guilt of this land in a single day."

Zec. 6:11-13 "11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak (Savior Son of the Righteous God); 12 say to him: Thus says the LORD of hosts: Here is a man whose name is Branch: for he shall branch out in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he that shall build the temple of the LORD; he shall bear royal honor, and shall sit upon his throne and rule. There shall be a priest by his throne, with peaceful understanding between the two of them."

Edited May 21, 2022 by Davros of Skaro

[Will Due]

8 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Does this bit of information below make more sense in light of what Paul wrote?

 

I think the following (which you posted the other day) explains succinctly why a lot of it doesn't make much sense:

 

"composite Christian theology encounters great difficulty in attaining consistency. This difficulty is further aggravated by the fact that the doctrines of early Christianity were generally based on the personal religious experience of three different persons: Philo of Alexandria, Jesus of Nazareth, and Paul of Tarsus."

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Davros of Skaro said:

God is not dead to a Jew.

Does this bit of information below make more sense in light of what Paul wrote?

To Paul a physical resurrection does not inherit God's Kingdom (The Synoptics have a flesh resurrected Jesus).

1 Cor. 15:49 "49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality."

Dirty, or impoverished clothing, and clean, or gleaming clothing were seen as metaphors for Earthly/spiritual bodies in the ancient world. (Mark 14:51-52 "A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked.", 16:5 "As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man, dressed in a white robe, sitting on the right side; and they were alarmed.")

Rom. 4:25 "who was handed over to death for our trespasses and was raised for our justification." Note: 1 Cor. 11:23 "betrayed" is contextually reciprocal with "handed over" in Greek (Rom. 1:24, :26, :28).

The verse Rom. 1:3b "who was descended from David according to the flesh" (2 Sam. 7:12) is good evidence for historicity. But 2 Sam. 7:12c "who shall come forth from your body," can mean God made a flesh body from David's semen for Jesus (it was a belief that the male seed contained the whole body). This is a convenient way to fulfill messianic prophecy for a celestial event instead of on Earth.

Zec. 3:1-9 "1 Then he showed me the high priest Joshua/Jesus (Savior) standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan (Adversary) standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2 And the LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this man a brand plucked from the fire?" 3 Now Joshua was dressed with filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. 4 The angel said to those who were standing before him, "Take off his filthy clothes." And to him he said, "See, I have taken your guilt away from you, and I will clothe you with festal apparel." 5 And I said, "Let them put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with the apparel; and the angel of the LORD was standing by.

6 Then the angel of the LORD assured Joshua, saying 7 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you shall rule my house and have charge of my courts, and I will give you the right of access among those who are standing here. 8 Now listen, Joshua, high priest, you and your colleagues who sit before you! For they are an omen of things to come: I am going to bring my servant the Branch. 9 For on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven facets, I will engrave its inscription, says the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the guilt of this land in a single day."

Zec. 6:11-13 "11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest Joshua son of Jehozadak (Savior Son of the Righteous God); 12 say to him: Thus says the LORD of hosts: Here is a man whose name is Branch: for he shall branch out in his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he that shall build the temple of the LORD; he shall bear royal honor, and shall sit upon his throne and rule. There shall be a priest by his throne, with peaceful understanding between the two of them."

Jesus most certainly was which is where Paul claimed his authority came from. 
 

It’s rather irrelevant what Paul thought as the Jews themselves expected their Messiah to be a flesh and blood person who would drive the Romans away once and for all. 
 

cormac

[Davros of Skaro]

13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Jesus most certainly was which is where Paul claimed his authority came from. 

According to Paul he along with the Apostles got their revelation of Jesus through scripture and visions.

13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

It’s rather irrelevant what Paul thought as the Jews themselves expected their Messiah to be a flesh and blood person who would drive the Romans away once and for all.

What better way to have messianic expectations fulfilled when one did not show up, but to see it already happened in the celestial realm revealed in scripture. Here we have Satan not knowing who Jesus was because of his dirty flesh disguise, his flesh taken away, spiritual flesh is given, and God exalts Jesus.

Jesus being hung up is in the OT as well.

On 5/19/2022 at 8:33 PM, cormac mac airt said:

Which IMO begs the question “who’s” message? If, for arguments sake, it wasn’t Jesus’ message but perhaps Paul’s or some others then it makes Christianity ultimately based on a lie which was NOT centered on anything Jesus said/did/believed etc. 
 

Yet literally billions take it as incontrovertible fact. 
 

cormac

Irony....

[Davros of Skaro]

19 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I think the following (which you posted the other day) explains succinctly why a lot of it doesn't make much sense:

"composite Christian theology encounters great difficulty in attaining consistency. This difficulty is further aggravated by the fact that the doctrines of early Christianity were generally based on the personal religious experience of three different persons: Philo of Alexandria, Jesus of Nazareth, and Paul of Tarsus."

I think there would be no Christianity today if it was not for two of the three, while the third did not need to exist at all. Can you guess which ones I'm talking about.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Davros of Skaro said:

According to Paul he along with the Apostles got their revelation of Jesus through scripture and visions.

What better way to have messianic expectations fulfilled when one did not show up, but to see it already happened in the celestial realm revealed in scripture. Here we have Satan not knowing who Jesus was because of his dirty flesh disguise, his flesh taken away, spiritual flesh is given, and God exalts Jesus.

Jesus being hung up is in the OT as well.

Irony....

Which are not Jesus the man himself. 
 

No it’s not, nowhere in the OT is Jesus ever mentioned by name. At best it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy on par with The Prophecies of Nostradamus. You’re trying to make it more than what it is. 
 

cormac

[Davros of Skaro]

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Which are not Jesus the man himself. 

Going by the Gospel narrative it's not. You seem to realise that Jesus has a lot of myth heaped on top of him? Why is it a far stretch to consider he's entirely myth?

You do realise that a lot of the Gospels are based off of Mark (this is not wacka doo, but known in secular scholarship with of course some debate)? You do realise that Mark is very Pauline? 

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

No it’s not, nowhere in the OT is Jesus ever mentioned by name. At best it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy on par with The Prophecies of Nostradamus. You’re trying to make it more than what it is. 
 

cormac

Here's a Jewish philosopher that's near contemporary with Paul. He believes in a chief archangel that was God's Firstborn. Compare Philo's Angel of Many Names to Paul's Christ Jesus:

Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4, Phili. 2:6), Agent of Creation (Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6) 

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I

"XVI ...Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made..." 

Celestial High Priest (Heb. 2:17, 4:14), God's Word (Heb. 1:3, 11:3), Firstborn son (Rom. 8:29) 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT 

"XXXVII ...the high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son."

Spiritual Kinship/Angel of God (Rom. 8:29, Gal. 4:5-7, :14, Heb. 1:4) 

Philo: ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES 

"XI ...In reference to which I admire those who say, “We are all one man’s sons, we are men of Peace,” (Gen. 42:11) because of their well-adapted agreement; since how, I should say, could you, O excellent men, avoid being grieved at war, and delighted in peace, being the sons of one and the same father, and he not mortal but immortal, the man of God, who being the reason of the everlasting God, is of necessity himself also immortal?" 

"XXVIII ...And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God’s image, and he who sees Israel. For which reason I was induced a little while ago to praise the principles of those who said, “We are all one man’s Sons.” (Gen. 42:11) For even if we are not yet suitable to be called the sons of God, still we may deserve to be called the children of his eternal image, of his most sacred word; for the image of God is his most ancient word...." 

Note: Gal. 1:19 "but I did not see any other apostle except James the LORD's brother." This could be a cultic title (like Peter/Cephas which means "Rock" could have been, or an idiom) rather than being a biological relation? Paul constantly refers to those "in Christ" as brothers/sisters in a spiritual family. 

Good Shepherd (Heb. 13:20) 

Philo: ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES 

"XIX ...for they have abandoned all connections with pride, and having connected themselves with lawful persuasion, choosing to become a portion of the sacred flock, of which the divine word is the leader, as his name shows, for it signifies the pastoral care of God." 

"XX But while he is taking care of his own flock, all kinds of good things are given all at once to those of the sheep who are obedient, and who do not resist his will; and in the Psalms we find a song in these words, “The Lord is my shepherd, therefore shall I lack Nothing;” (psa. 23:1) therefore the mind which has had the royal shepherd, the divine word, for its instructor,..." 

Purification/Forgiveness of Sins/Glorification (1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Cor. 3:18, 4:6) 

Philo: ON THE LIFE OF MOSES, II 

"XXVI Such then are the figurative meanings which he desires to indicate by the sacred vestments of the high priest;... ...namely the logeum, being also an emblem of that reason which holds together and regulates the universe. For it was indispensable that the man who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete, his son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings;..." 

Tested (Heb. 2:18) A Man (Rom. 5:15-19, 1 Cor. 15:45-49)

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I 

"XXXIX ...For when the sacred word has purified us with the sprinklings prepared beforehand for purification, and when it has adorned us with the select reasonings of true philosophy, and, having led us to that man who has stood the test, has made us genuine, and conspicuous, and shining,..." 

Sits Beside God (Heb. 8:1) 

Philo: ABOUT NOT MOVING LANDMARKS 

"XXXVIII... I say, should such men triumph in and insult the misfortunes of others, having no respect for justice, the ruler (Note: justice/ruler) of human life, who sits by the side of the great Ruler of the universe, who surveys all things with sleepless and most piercing eyes, and sees what is in recesses as clearly as if it was in the pure sunlight?" 

The Word is a Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:4-6) 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book II 

"XXXIII ...God, says that he is about to erect firmly his covenant full of grace (and that means his law and his word) in the soul of the just man as on a solid foundation, which shall be an image in the likeness of God, when he says to Noah, “I will establish my covenant with Thee.” (Gen. 9:11) And besides this, he also indicates two other things, one that justice is in no respect different from the covenant of God (Note: justice/covenant), the other that other beings bestow gifts which are different from the persons who receive them;... XXXVI Since then all steadiness, and stability, and the abiding for ever in the same place unchangeably and immovably, is first of all seen in the living God, and next in the word of the living God, which he has called his covenant;..." 

Sacrificial Blood (Heb. 12:24) 

Philo: WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS 

"XXXVIII ...Now, the craters of the sense of seeing are the eyes, those of hearing are the ears, those of smelling are the nostrils, and so on with the appropriate receptacles for each of the senses. On these craters the sacred word pours a portion of blood, thinking it right that the irrational part of us should become endowed with soul and vitality, and should in some manner become rational; following the guidance of admonition, and purifying itself from the deceitful alluring powers of the objects of the outward sense which aim to overcome it."

Intermediary Agent to Mortals (Rom. 8:34, Gal. 3:19-20, Heb. 12:24)

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I

"XII ...who never abandons his faith in God and his invisible comprehension of him, but who keeps to the intermediate divine word, which affords him the best suggestions, and teaches him everything which is suitable to the times. For God, not condescending to come down to the external senses, sends his own words or angels for the sake of giving assistance to those who love virtue. But they attend like physicians to the disease of the soul, and apply themselves to heal them, offering sacred recommendations like sacred laws, and inviting men to practice the duties inculcated by them, and, like the trainers of wrestlers, implanting in their pupils strength, and power, and irresistible vigour. Very properly, therefore, when he has arrived at the external sense, he is represented no longer as meeting God, but only the divine word,..."

Empties (Kenosis) Himself (Phili. 2:7-8)

Philo: Who is The Heir To Divine Things

"XLI ...but in real fact for the whole world which was created by divine wisdom may be consecrated and dedicated, being made a burnt offering of early in the morning and also in the evening. For such a life as this becomes the world, namely, continually and without ceasing to be giving thanks to its Father and Creator, so as to stop short of nothing but evaporating and reducing itself into its original element, in order to show that it stores up and conceals nothing, but dedicates itself wholly as a pious offering to God who created it."

Born of a Woman/Under the Law (Gal. 4:4b), Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24b)

Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING

"XX ...For we say that the high priest (Jos. 20:1-6) is not a man, but is the Word of God, who has not only no participation in intentional errors, but none even in those which are involuntary. For Moses says that he cannot be defiled neither in respect of his father, that is, the mind, nor his mother, that is, the external sense; "He shall not go where there is a dead body; he shall not defile himself even for his father or mother." (Lev. 21:11) because, I imagine, he has received imperishable and wholly pure parents, God being his father, who is also the father of all things, and Wisdom being his mother, by means of whom the universe arrived at creation (Prov. 3:19-20, 8:22-31); and also because he is anointed with oil, by which I mean that the principal part of him is illuminated with a light like the beams of the sun, so as to be thought worthy to be clothed with garments. And the most ancient Word of the living God is clothed with the word (Law) as with a garment, for it has put on earth, and water, and air, and fire, and the things which proceed from those elements. ...Nor will he “rend his clothes;” (Lev. 21:10) for the Word of the living God being the bond of every thing, as has been said before, holds all things together, and binds all the parts, and prevents them from being loosened or separated."

Philo: A Treatise Concerning The World

"II ...But the eternal law of the everlasting God is the strong and lasting support of the universe. This law being extended from the centre of the world to its furthest extremities, and again back from its extremities to the centre, moves on in the unwearied irresistible course of nature, uniting and binding together all the parts of the universe. For the Father who established it made it to be the indissoluble bond of the universe. Therefore we are naturally led to conclude that the whole earth will not be dissolved by water, which its bosoms contain; nor again will fire be extinguished by the air, nor again will the air be burnt up and consumed by fire, since the divine law has placed itself as a boundary to keep all these elements distinct from one another."

The High Priest's headdress had a crown representing a plant known for it's hallucinogenic properties at which a golden plate covered the forehead. On said golden plate was inscribed sacred characters for the name of God.

Josephus: THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, BOOK 3, CHAPTER 7 (172-178), CONCERNING THE GARMENTS ...OF THE HIGH PRIEST

"6. The high priest's mitre was the same that we described before, and was wrought like that of all the other priests; above which there was another, with swathes of blue embroidered, and round it was a golden crown polished, of three rows, one above another; out of which arose a cup of gold, which resembled the herb which we call Saccharus: but those Greeks that are skilful in botany call it Hyoscyamus. ...Now the fruit is preserved by this coat of the calyx, which fruit is like the seed of the herb Sideritis: it sends out a flower that may seem to resemble that of poppy. Of this was a crown made, as far as from the hinder part of the head to each of the temples; but this Ephielis, for so this calyx may be called, did not cover the forehead, but it was covered with a golden plate, which had inscribed upon it the name of God in sacred characters. And such were the ornaments of the high priest."

Hyoscyamus Niger

" ...was historically used..., as well as for its psychoactive properties in "magic brews". These psychoactive properties include visual hallucinations and a sensation of flight. ...The plant, recorded as Herba Apollinaris, was used to yield oracles by the priestesses of Apollo."

wiki/Hyoscyamus_niger

Philippians 3:5

"5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;"

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

"1 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. 3 And I know that such a person — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows — 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, III

"I There was once a time when, devoting my leisure to philosophy and to the contemplation of the world and the things in it, I reaped the fruit of excellent, and desirable, and blessed intellectual feelings, being always living among the divine oracles and doctrines, on which I fed incessantly and insatiably, to my great delight, never entertaining any low or grovelling thoughts, nor ever wallowing in the pursuit of glory or wealth, or the delights of the body, but I appeared to be raised on high and borne aloft by a certain inspiration of the soul, and to dwell in the regions of the sun and moon, and to associate with the whole heaven, and the whole universal world. At that time, therefore, looking down from above, from the air, and straining the eye of my mind as from a watch-tower, I surveyed the unspeakable contemplation of all the things on the earth, and looked upon myself as happy as having forcibly escaped from all the evil fates that can attack human life. ...Behold, therefore, I venture not only to study the sacred commands of Moses, but also with an ardent love of knowledge to investigate each separate one of them, and to endeavour to reveal and to explain to those who wish to understand them, things concerning them which are not known to the multitude."

Earth man & Heaven man (aka the "two Adams") (Rom. 5:14-19, 1 Cor. 15:21-22, :45-49)

Philo: ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, I

"XIV “And God planted a paradise in Eden, in the east: and there he placed the man whom he had Formed:” (Gen. 2:8) for he called that divine and heavenly wisdom by many names; and he made it manifest that it had many appellations; for he called it the beginning (Gen. 1:1), and the image, and the sight of God. ...the plantation of this paradise is represented in the east; for right reason never sets, and is never extinguished, but it is it's nature to be always rising. And as I imagine, the rising sun fills the darkness of the air with light, so also does virtue when it has arisen in the soul, irradiate its mist and dissipate the dense darkness."

Note: Check out Gen. 2:8 & Gen. 2:15. God twice puts a man in Eden. One man is God's self taught firstborn (to tend to the Tree Life? Gen. 2:9b, 3:22c, :24c), and the other man is Adam to cultivate the garden for it's celestial virtues (to learn). It's confusing thanks to the way the first five books of the Bible were put together, but they (Paul/Philo) talk about two separate beings in Eden.

Gen. 2:8 "8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Gen. 2:15 "15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it."

"According to the documentary hypothesis there were four sources, each originally a separate and independent book (a "document"), joined together at various points in time by a series of editors ("redactors")."

wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

The first creation story always and only refers to God as Elohim (Gen. 1:1a "when God"). The second creation story always refers to God as Yahweh, or Yahweh Elohim (Gen. 2:4b "the LORD God"), but never as Elohim alone.

The doublets in the creation story influenced Philo's perception, and philosophy on scripture. Note when Philo sees scripture refer to God as Lord it's the archangel of many names. 

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I

"LVI...Do you not see that the most important and greatest of all the powers of the living God are his beneficent and his punishing power? And his beneficent power is called God, since it is by means of this that he made and arranged the universe. And the other, or punishing power, is called Lord, on which his sovereignty over the universe depends. And God is God, not only of men, but also of gods; and he is mighty, being truly strong and truly Powerful."

Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING

"XIX ...The images of the cities of command and prohibition are the laws in the ark; that of the merciful power of God is the covering of the ark, and he calls it the mercy- seat. The images of the creative power and of the kingly power are the winged cherubim which are placed upon it. But the divine word which is above these does not come into any visible appearance, inasmuch as it is not like to any of the things that come under the external senses, but is itself an image of God, the most ancient of all the objects of intellect in the whole world, and that which is placed in the closest proximity to the only truly existing God, without any partition or distance being interposed between them: for it is said, “I will speak unto thee from above the mercyseat, in the midst, between the two Cherubim.” (Exo. 25:22) So that the word is, as it were, the charioteer of the powers, and he who utters it is the rider, who directs the charioteer how to proceed with a view to the proper guidance of the universe."

[Will Due]

57 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

I think there would be no Christianity today if it was not for two of the three, while the third did not need to exist at all. Can you guess which ones I'm talking about.

 

You're right. Without Philo and Paul there would be no Christianity. But what's even more ironic is that if the teachings of Jesus would have been instituted as he instructed his followers to do (see Matthew 7:21) there would now be a long history of how the men and women of the world, instead of trying to make sense of the overly complicated wornout theologies of Philo and Paul, learned better and better the religion of Jesus --- to seek and do the will of the Father in heaven as a personal experience.

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Will Due

[cormac mac airt]

17 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Going by the Gospel narrative it's not. You seem to realise that Jesus has a lot of myth heaped on top of him? Why is it a far stretch to consider he's entirely myth?

You do realise that a lot of the Gospels are based off of Mark (this is not wacka doo, but known in secular scholarship with of course some debate)? You do realise that Mark is very Pauline? 

Here's a Jewish philosopher that's near contemporary with Paul. He believes in a chief archangel that was God's Firstborn. Compare Philo's Angel of Many Names to Paul's Christ Jesus:

Image of God (2 Cor. 4:4, Phili. 2:6), Agent of Creation (Rom. 11:36, 1 Cor. 8:6) 

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I

"XVI ...Now the image of God is the Word, by which all the world was made..." 

Celestial High Priest (Heb. 2:17, 4:14), God's Word (Heb. 1:3, 11:3), Firstborn son (Rom. 8:29) 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT 

"XXXVII ...the high priest is the Divine Word, his own firstborn son."

Spiritual Kinship/Angel of God (Rom. 8:29, Gal. 4:5-7, :14, Heb. 1:4) 

Philo: ON THE CONFUSION OF TONGUES 

"XI ...In reference to which I admire those who say, “We are all one man’s sons, we are men of Peace,” (Gen. 42:11) because of their well-adapted agreement; since how, I should say, could you, O excellent men, avoid being grieved at war, and delighted in peace, being the sons of one and the same father, and he not mortal but immortal, the man of God, who being the reason of the everlasting God, is of necessity himself also immortal?" 

"XXVIII ...And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God’s image, and he who sees Israel. For which reason I was induced a little while ago to praise the principles of those who said, “We are all one man’s Sons.” (Gen. 42:11) For even if we are not yet suitable to be called the sons of God, still we may deserve to be called the children of his eternal image, of his most sacred word; for the image of God is his most ancient word...." 

Note: Gal. 1:19 "but I did not see any other apostle except James the LORD's brother." This could be a cultic title (like Peter/Cephas which means "Rock" could have been, or an idiom) rather than being a biological relation? Paul constantly refers to those "in Christ" as brothers/sisters in a spiritual family. 

Good Shepherd (Heb. 13:20) 

Philo: ON THE CHANGE OF NAMES 

"XIX ...for they have abandoned all connections with pride, and having connected themselves with lawful persuasion, choosing to become a portion of the sacred flock, of which the divine word is the leader, as his name shows, for it signifies the pastoral care of God." 

"XX But while he is taking care of his own flock, all kinds of good things are given all at once to those of the sheep who are obedient, and who do not resist his will; and in the Psalms we find a song in these words, “The Lord is my shepherd, therefore shall I lack Nothing;” (psa. 23:1) therefore the mind which has had the royal shepherd, the divine word, for its instructor,..." 

Purification/Forgiveness of Sins/Glorification (1 Cor. 6:11, 2 Cor. 3:18, 4:6) 

Philo: ON THE LIFE OF MOSES, II 

"XXVI Such then are the figurative meanings which he desires to indicate by the sacred vestments of the high priest;... ...namely the logeum, being also an emblem of that reason which holds together and regulates the universe. For it was indispensable that the man who was consecrated to the Father of the world, should have as a paraclete, his son, the being most perfect in all virtue, to procure forgiveness of sins, and a supply of unlimited blessings;..." 

Tested (Heb. 2:18) A Man (Rom. 5:15-19, 1 Cor. 15:45-49)

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I 

"XXXIX ...For when the sacred word has purified us with the sprinklings prepared beforehand for purification, and when it has adorned us with the select reasonings of true philosophy, and, having led us to that man who has stood the test, has made us genuine, and conspicuous, and shining,..." 

Sits Beside God (Heb. 8:1) 

Philo: ABOUT NOT MOVING LANDMARKS 

"XXXVIII... I say, should such men triumph in and insult the misfortunes of others, having no respect for justice, the ruler (Note: justice/ruler) of human life, who sits by the side of the great Ruler of the universe, who surveys all things with sleepless and most piercing eyes, and sees what is in recesses as clearly as if it was in the pure sunlight?" 

The Word is a Covenant (1 Cor. 11:25, 2 Cor. 3:4-6) 

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book II 

"XXXIII ...God, says that he is about to erect firmly his covenant full of grace (and that means his law and his word) in the soul of the just man as on a solid foundation, which shall be an image in the likeness of God, when he says to Noah, “I will establish my covenant with Thee.” (Gen. 9:11) And besides this, he also indicates two other things, one that justice is in no respect different from the covenant of God (Note: justice/covenant), the other that other beings bestow gifts which are different from the persons who receive them;... XXXVI Since then all steadiness, and stability, and the abiding for ever in the same place unchangeably and immovably, is first of all seen in the living God, and next in the word of the living God, which he has called his covenant;..." 

Sacrificial Blood (Heb. 12:24) 

Philo: WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS 

"XXXVIII ...Now, the craters of the sense of seeing are the eyes, those of hearing are the ears, those of smelling are the nostrils, and so on with the appropriate receptacles for each of the senses. On these craters the sacred word pours a portion of blood, thinking it right that the irrational part of us should become endowed with soul and vitality, and should in some manner become rational; following the guidance of admonition, and purifying itself from the deceitful alluring powers of the objects of the outward sense which aim to overcome it."

Intermediary Agent to Mortals (Rom. 8:34, Gal. 3:19-20, Heb. 12:24)

Philo: ON DREAMS, THAT THEY ARE GOD-SENT Book I

"XII ...who never abandons his faith in God and his invisible comprehension of him, but who keeps to the intermediate divine word, which affords him the best suggestions, and teaches him everything which is suitable to the times. For God, not condescending to come down to the external senses, sends his own words or angels for the sake of giving assistance to those who love virtue. But they attend like physicians to the disease of the soul, and apply themselves to heal them, offering sacred recommendations like sacred laws, and inviting men to practice the duties inculcated by them, and, like the trainers of wrestlers, implanting in their pupils strength, and power, and irresistible vigour. Very properly, therefore, when he has arrived at the external sense, he is represented no longer as meeting God, but only the divine word,..."

Empties (Kenosis) Himself (Phili. 2:7-8)

Philo: Who is The Heir To Divine Things

"XLI ...but in real fact for the whole world which was created by divine wisdom may be consecrated and dedicated, being made a burnt offering of early in the morning and also in the evening. For such a life as this becomes the world, namely, continually and without ceasing to be giving thanks to its Father and Creator, so as to stop short of nothing but evaporating and reducing itself into its original element, in order to show that it stores up and conceals nothing, but dedicates itself wholly as a pious offering to God who created it."

Born of a Woman/Under the Law (Gal. 4:4b), Wisdom of God (1 Cor. 1:24b)

Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING

"XX ...For we say that the high priest (Jos. 20:1-6) is not a man, but is the Word of God, who has not only no participation in intentional errors, but none even in those which are involuntary. For Moses says that he cannot be defiled neither in respect of his father, that is, the mind, nor his mother, that is, the external sense; "He shall not go where there is a dead body; he shall not defile himself even for his father or mother." (Lev. 21:11) because, I imagine, he has received imperishable and wholly pure parents, God being his father, who is also the father of all things, and Wisdom being his mother, by means of whom the universe arrived at creation (Prov. 3:19-20, 8:22-31); and also because he is anointed with oil, by which I mean that the principal part of him is illuminated with a light like the beams of the sun, so as to be thought worthy to be clothed with garments. And the most ancient Word of the living God is clothed with the word (Law) as with a garment, for it has put on earth, and water, and air, and fire, and the things which proceed from those elements. ...Nor will he “rend his clothes;” (Lev. 21:10) for the Word of the living God being the bond of every thing, as has been said before, holds all things together, and binds all the parts, and prevents them from being loosened or separated."

Philo: A Treatise Concerning The World

"II ...But the eternal law of the everlasting God is the strong and lasting support of the universe. This law being extended from the centre of the world to its furthest extremities, and again back from its extremities to the centre, moves on in the unwearied irresistible course of nature, uniting and binding together all the parts of the universe. For the Father who established it made it to be the indissoluble bond of the universe. Therefore we are naturally led to conclude that the whole earth will not be dissolved by water, which its bosoms contain; nor again will fire be extinguished by the air, nor again will the air be burnt up and consumed by fire, since the divine law has placed itself as a boundary to keep all these elements distinct from one another."

The High Priest's headdress had a crown representing a plant known for it's hallucinogenic properties at which a golden plate covered the forehead. On said golden plate was inscribed sacred characters for the name of God.

Josephus: THE ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS, BOOK 3, CHAPTER 7 (172-178), CONCERNING THE GARMENTS ...OF THE HIGH PRIEST

"6. The high priest's mitre was the same that we described before, and was wrought like that of all the other priests; above which there was another, with swathes of blue embroidered, and round it was a golden crown polished, of three rows, one above another; out of which arose a cup of gold, which resembled the herb which we call Saccharus: but those Greeks that are skilful in botany call it Hyoscyamus. ...Now the fruit is preserved by this coat of the calyx, which fruit is like the seed of the herb Sideritis: it sends out a flower that may seem to resemble that of poppy. Of this was a crown made, as far as from the hinder part of the head to each of the temples; but this Ephielis, for so this calyx may be called, did not cover the forehead, but it was covered with a golden plate, which had inscribed upon it the name of God in sacred characters. And such were the ornaments of the high priest."

Hyoscyamus Niger

" ...was historically used..., as well as for its psychoactive properties in "magic brews". These psychoactive properties include visual hallucinations and a sensation of flight. ...The plant, recorded as Herba Apollinaris, was used to yield oracles by the priestesses of Apollo."

wiki/Hyoscyamus_niger

Philippians 3:5

"5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;"

2 Corinthians 12:1-4

"1 It is necessary to boast; nothing is to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a person in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. 3 And I know that such a person — whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows — 4 was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat."

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, III

"I There was once a time when, devoting my leisure to philosophy and to the contemplation of the world and the things in it, I reaped the fruit of excellent, and desirable, and blessed intellectual feelings, being always living among the divine oracles and doctrines, on which I fed incessantly and insatiably, to my great delight, never entertaining any low or grovelling thoughts, nor ever wallowing in the pursuit of glory or wealth, or the delights of the body, but I appeared to be raised on high and borne aloft by a certain inspiration of the soul, and to dwell in the regions of the sun and moon, and to associate with the whole heaven, and the whole universal world. At that time, therefore, looking down from above, from the air, and straining the eye of my mind as from a watch-tower, I surveyed the unspeakable contemplation of all the things on the earth, and looked upon myself as happy as having forcibly escaped from all the evil fates that can attack human life. ...Behold, therefore, I venture not only to study the sacred commands of Moses, but also with an ardent love of knowledge to investigate each separate one of them, and to endeavour to reveal and to explain to those who wish to understand them, things concerning them which are not known to the multitude."

Earth man & Heaven man (aka the "two Adams") (Rom. 5:14-19, 1 Cor. 15:21-22, :45-49)

Philo: ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION, I

"XIV “And God planted a paradise in Eden, in the east: and there he placed the man whom he had Formed:” (Gen. 2:8) for he called that divine and heavenly wisdom by many names; and he made it manifest that it had many appellations; for he called it the beginning (Gen. 1:1), and the image, and the sight of God. ...the plantation of this paradise is represented in the east; for right reason never sets, and is never extinguished, but it is it's nature to be always rising. And as I imagine, the rising sun fills the darkness of the air with light, so also does virtue when it has arisen in the soul, irradiate its mist and dissipate the dense darkness."

Note: Check out Gen. 2:8 & Gen. 2:15. God twice puts a man in Eden. One man is God's self taught firstborn (to tend to the Tree Life? Gen. 2:9b, 3:22c, :24c), and the other man is Adam to cultivate the garden for it's celestial virtues (to learn). It's confusing thanks to the way the first five books of the Bible were put together, but they (Paul/Philo) talk about two separate beings in Eden.

Gen. 2:8 "8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed."

Gen. 2:15 "15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it."

"According to the documentary hypothesis there were four sources, each originally a separate and independent book (a "document"), joined together at various points in time by a series of editors ("redactors")."

wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

The first creation story always and only refers to God as Elohim (Gen. 1:1a "when God"). The second creation story always refers to God as Yahweh, or Yahweh Elohim (Gen. 2:4b "the LORD God"), but never as Elohim alone.

The doublets in the creation story influenced Philo's perception, and philosophy on scripture. Note when Philo sees scripture refer to God as Lord it's the archangel of many names. 

Philo: THE SPECIAL LAWS, I

"LVI...Do you not see that the most important and greatest of all the powers of the living God are his beneficent and his punishing power? And his beneficent power is called God, since it is by means of this that he made and arranged the universe. And the other, or punishing power, is called Lord, on which his sovereignty over the universe depends. And God is God, not only of men, but also of gods; and he is mighty, being truly strong and truly Powerful."

Philo: ON FLIGHT AND FINDING

"XIX ...The images of the cities of command and prohibition are the laws in the ark; that of the merciful power of God is the covering of the ark, and he calls it the mercy- seat. The images of the creative power and of the kingly power are the winged cherubim which are placed upon it. But the divine word which is above these does not come into any visible appearance, inasmuch as it is not like to any of the things that come under the external senses, but is itself an image of God, the most ancient of all the objects of intellect in the whole world, and that which is placed in the closest proximity to the only truly existing God, without any partition or distance being interposed between them: for it is said, “I will speak unto thee from above the mercyseat, in the midst, between the two Cherubim.” (Exo. 25:22) So that the word is, as it were, the charioteer of the powers, and he who utters it is the rider, who directs the charioteer how to proceed with a view to the proper guidance of the universe."

Why must he be entirely myth, after all Jesus was a rather popular name in the 1st Century AD. And since nothing was written about him until AFTER his death anyone could claim whatever they wanted about him and none would be the wiser. 

cormac

 

[Davros of Skaro]

4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

You're right. Without Philo and Paul there would be no Christianity. But what's even more ironic is that if the teachings of Jesus would have been instituted as he instructed his followers to do (see Matthew 7:21) there would now be a long history of how the men and women of the world, instead of trying to make sense of the overly complicated and for all intents and purposes, wornout theologies of Philo and Paul, learned better and better the religion of Jesus --- to seek and do the will of the Father in heaven as a personal experience.

The Jesus in Matthew said to abide by the Law as well (Mat. 5:17-20). Does no bacon for breakfast bring one closer to a personal experience with the Father?

Paul, and the Pauline influenced are about doing God's will, and you're allowed some Jimmy Dean as well.

Mark 3:35

Romans 12:2

Hebrews 10:36

[Will Due]

19 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

The Jesus in Matthew said to abide by the Law as well (Mat. 5:17-20). 

 

Alright but to what degree did the recital of the Jesus of the NT become misinformation because of the non-Jesusonian religious experiences of Philo and Paul?

By "non-Jesusonian" I mean those things that were a part of the ideas of Philo and Paul that had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Will Due

[Davros of Skaro]

23 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Why must he be entirely myth, after all Jesus was a rather popular name in the 1st Century AD. And since nothing was written about him until AFTER his death anyone could claim whatever they wanted about him and none would be the wiser. 

cormac

Why does it look like you're troubled by him possibly being entirely myth?

You seen so many examples over the years in other parts of this forum of people making huge leaps of logic to support what they want to believe. Is it so hard to think that maybe that Christianity started out as patternicity seeking in scripture which led to the belief in a Saviour deity? Which replaces one that never came. Then a parable was written about said deity set on Earth for the less spiritual philosophy inclined to believe, and then thus parable led to a doctrinal war which led to being believed as history.

The pseudograph 2 Pet. 1:16 is pushback against people (likely a group of Xtians who we don't get to hear from) that are saying the Gospels are literary fabrications, and then forges an eyewitness account. Later in 2 Pet. 3:15-16 it mentions that there's things in Paul's letters that do not make sense, which is strange in light of 1 Cor. 3:2 & Heb. 5:12 in which converts are taught things easy to understand.

Jesus death, ressurection, and exaltation is in OT scripture just like Paul says it is. 

1 Cor. 15:24-26 "24 Then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father, after he has destroyed every ruler and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

Jos. 10:24-27 "24 When they brought the kings out to Joshua/Jesus, Joshua summoned all the Israelites, and said to the chiefs of the warriors who had gone with him, "Come near, put your feet on the necks of these kings." Then they came near and put their feet on their necks. (Psa. 110:1/1 Cor. 15:24-28, Rom. 16:20, Heb. 1:13, 2:5-9, 10:13) 25 And Joshua said to them, "Do not be afraid or dismayed; be strong and courageous; for thus the LORD will do to all the enemies against whom you fight." 26 Afterward Joshua struck them down and put them to death, and he hung them on five trees. And they hung on the trees until evening. 27 At sunset Joshua commanded, and they took them down from the trees and threw them into the cave where they had hidden themselves; they set large stones against the mouth of the cave, which remain to this very day. (Deut. 21:22-23/Gal. 3:13)"

Five Kings= Five Senses (Flesh)

Philo: ON ABRAHAM

"XLI These things, then, are what are contained in the plain words of the scriptures. But as many as are able to contemplate the facts related in them in their incorporeal and naked state, living rather in the soul than in the body, will say that of the nine kings (Gen.14:1-2) the four are the powers of the four passions which exist within us, the passion of pleasure, of desire, of fear, and of grief; and that the other five kings are the outward senses, being equal in number, the sense of sight, of hearing, of smell, of taste, and of touch. For these in some degree are sovereigns and rulers, having acquired a certain power over us, but not all to an equal extent; for the five are subordinate to the four, and are compelled to pay them taxes and tribute, such as are appointed by nature. For it is from the things which we see, or hear, or smell, or taste, or touch, that pleasures, and pains, and fears, and desires arise; as there is no one of the passions which has any power to exist of itself, if it were not supplied by the materials furnished by the outward senses."

Philo: WHO IS THE HEIR OF DIVINE THINGS

"XXXVIII ...Now, the craters of the sense of seeing are the eyes, those of hearing are the ears, those of smelling are the nostrils, and so on with the appropriate receptacles for each of the senses. On these craters the sacred word pours a portion of blood, thinking it right that the irrational part of us should become endowed with soul and vitality, ...purifying itself from the deceitful alluring powers of the objects of the outward sense which aim to overcome it."

Philo: QUESTIONS & ANSWERS ON GENESIS, III

"(51) What is the meaning of, “And it shall be my covenant (or agreement) in your flesh?” (Gen. 17:13). God is willing to do good, not only to the man who is endued with virtue, but he wishes that the Divine Word should regulate not only his soul but his body also, as if it had become its physician. And it must be its care to prune away all excesses of seeing, and hearing, and taste, and smell, and touch, and also those of the instrument of voice and articulation, and also all the redundant and pernicious impulses of the genitals, (morning cross? Rom. 7:23) as also of the whole body, the effect of which is, that at times we are delighted by our passions and at times pained by them."

[Davros of Skaro]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

Alright but to what degree did the Jesus of the NT become misinformation because of the non-Jesusonian religious experiences of Philo and Paul?

You're asking the wrong person because to me Philo & Paul are talking about the same thing, and the Gospels are not history.

Here's my take in order of what was written:

Paul's nonpseudographic Letters: Paul is talking about a celestial deity that went through an atonement sacrifice found in OT scripture, and possibly stuff we no longer have. 

Mark: Is influenced by Paul, and writes a parable of this deity set on Earth. The author uses mostly OT scripture to form narratives.

Matthew: Looks to be from a Petrine, or rather a pro Torah Law faction that expands, and reformats Mark.

Luke/Acts: The author smooths over the previous differences, and sets up their own doctrine.

John: Whoever he was is just doing their own thing with the previous three Gospels.

Maybe there was a Jesus, and your asking what even secular scholars even debate about.

[Will Due]

6 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

You're asking the wrong person because to me Philo & Paul are talking about the same thing, and the Gospels are not history.

Here's my take in order of what was written:

Paul's nonpseudographic Letters: Paul is talking about a celestial deity that went through an atonement sacrifice found in OT scripture, and possibly stuff we no longer have. 

Mark: Is influenced by Paul, and writes a parable of this deity set on Earth. The author uses mostly OT scripture to form narratives.

Matthew: Looks to be from a Petrine, or rather a pro Torah Law faction that expands, and reformats Mark.

Luke/Acts: The author smooths over the previous differences, and sets up their own doctrine.

John: Whoever he was is just doing their own thing with the previous three Gospels.

Maybe there was a Jesus, and your asking what even secular scholars even debate about.

 

I guess we may never know what really happened.

It's almost like someone from another planet who knows should fly by and drop off a book that explains everything. 

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

I guess we may never know what really happened.

Probably not.

2 minutes ago, Will Due said:

It's almost like someone from another planet who knows should fly by and drop off a book that explains everything. 

Who would believe that? 

[Will Due]

1 minute ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Who would believe that? 

 

Someday, after the party goers are gone and the hangover wears off, perhaps billions. 

 

 

[Davros of Skaro]

1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Someday, after the party goers are gone and the hangover wears off, perhaps billions. 

You could be reverenced as a prophet centuries from now, and what you say online is canon in the book named after you. People will marvel at how blind to your wisdom the people are who interact with you.