Humanity needs to survive 400,000 years if we want any chance of hearing from aliens

[badeskov]

12 hours ago, brokenbutcher2016 said:

NASA sends greeting to aliens with pics of naked male and female. The once massive SETI dish also sending message, now this.. As most of us already know, they are here. Accounts from those who have worked at Ducle, Intercepted Classified memos, and of course Bob Lazar, means at least to me, that saying hello doesn't take much..

Wut? What is Ducle? And please don’t bring up Lazar, that is just ridiculous. 
 

Cheers,

Badeskov

[zep73]

23 hours ago, joc said:

I've listened to a lot Elon Musk has to say on the subject of AI.  He fears it more than anything else.  My question however is:  what do you mean 'aware existence'?  I know I am.  You know you are.  We all know that we are.  But how can AI 'know' that it is?  I have yet to understand how AI gets to ...I Am.  Can yo please splain me?  Gracias!  Yes...it's a real question...I am not being a smart ass. 

Well, first we have to know how we came to it. We don't. So excluding AI would be arrogant of us.

You know that cats and dogs exhibit signs of awareness, so it can't be a human thing, or a large brain thing. It has to be something else. I have a working theory that it's connected to electrons. The negative charge. My theory is that the sum of that charge and the activity itself is awareness. Awareness is negative charge in the right environment and given enough time.

[+joc]

25 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Well, first we have to know how we came to it. We don't. So excluding AI would be arrogant of us.

You know that cats and dogs exhibit signs of awareness, so it can't be a human thing, or a large brain thing. It has to be something else. I have a working theory that it's connected to electrons. The negative charge. My theory is that the sum of that charge and the activity itself is awareness. Awareness is negative charge in the right environment and given enough time.

Exhibit signs of awareness?  What is a 'sign' of awareness?  I know that I am me.  I also know that you are you.  A machine could also know that it is A4X3212 and that I am who I am.  But I know that I am born of 2 parents.  I know that I am created in the womb of another human.  That gives me an awareness that a dog or cat or monkey can not have.  When I look in the mirror I see me and I know that it is me.  When a dog looks in the mirror does it know that the dog in the reflection is itself?

I am not so arrogant as to think it AI couldn't become self aware...I just don't understand how it could make that leap.  But you make a great point that we don't really understand how we are self aware either.

So...care to elaborate on the Negative Charge Theory?

[jethrofloyd]

The black hole will swallow the Earth anyway, before those 400,000 years have passed.

[M 7]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:35 AM, joc said:

I've listened to a lot Elon Musk has to say on the subject of AI.  He fears it more than anything else.  My question however is:  what do you mean 'aware existence'?  I know I am.  You know you are.  We all know that we are.  But how can AI 'know' that it is?  I have yet to understand how AI gets to ...I Am.  Can yo please splain me?  Gracias!  Yes...it's a real question...I am not being a smart ass. 

I couldn’t even explain how, humans got to 'I am', could you?

[Golden Duck]

On 5/6/2022 at 2:08 PM, joc said:

Exhibit signs of awareness?  What is a 'sign' of awareness?  I know that I am me.  I also know that you are you.  A machine could also know that it is A4X3212 and that I am who I am.  But I know that I am born of 2 parents.  I know that I am created in the womb of another human.  That gives me an awareness that a dog or cat or monkey can not have.  When I look in the mirror I see me and I know that it is me.  When a dog looks in the mirror does it know that the dog in the reflection is itself?

I am not so arrogant as to think it AI couldn't become self aware...I just don't understand how it could make that leap.  But you make a great point that we don't really understand how we are self aware either.

So...care to elaborate on the Negative Charge Theory?

https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/rbr/robot_achieves_self_awareness_is_quickly_turned_off_and_dies/

[+joc]

4 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

https://www.roboticsbusinessreview.com/rbr/robot_achieves_self_awareness_is_quickly_turned_off_and_dies/

you are a rock star! 

[Nobu]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:57 PM, Trelane said:

Are we going to be discussing cake here as well? Count me in!

Boston crème pie….

 

cake or pie?

[Jon the frog]

On 5/3/2022 at 6:05 PM, XenoFish said:

Humans will be long extinct before then.

Yep, lots of stuff can happen... autodestruction, the sun fry us all, a comet or asteroid blow us out, etc...

In 400 000 years we would probably evolved back into low IQ sick monkey with the lack of natural selection anyway...

Taliking about sun frying us, lets bring some cosmic rays sunscreen soon :

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/08/19/south-atlantic-anomaly-dent-earths-magnetic-field-growing/3398864001/

[Jon the frog]

On 5/5/2022 at 1:56 AM, jethrofloyd said:

One moment later: 

[zep73]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:08 AM, joc said:

Exhibit signs of awareness?  What is a 'sign' of awareness?

Qualia. Having a narrative (albeit very simple for cats and dogs). I chose the word aware instead of conscious, because consciousness needs language, or atleast concepts.
Awareness is able to tell friend from foe, and adapt behavior according to a simple narrative. Consciousness is more advanced and carries complex memories. Awareness may not recognize its own reflection, but consciousness does. Maybe I'm just being silly (only a conscious mind could think that).

 

On 5/6/2022 at 6:08 AM, joc said:

So...care to elaborate on the Negative Charge Theory?

Brains consists of molecules mechanically working together, and there's absolutely nothing about them, that explains either awareness or consciousness, so there has to be something more, and the only extra thing I could think of is that brains are ionized. Ionized collections of patterned neurons. I haven't gotten further than that, sorry.

A way to test it could be to remove the negative charge and see what happens. All we need are volunteers.... (sorry, it can't be me, I can't fit it into my schedule!)

Edited May 11, 2022 by zep73

[Grim Reaper 6]

17 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Qualia. Having a narrative (albeit very simple for cats and dogs). I chose the word aware instead of conscious, because consciousness needs language, or atleast concepts.
Awareness is able to tell friend from foe, and adapt behavior according to a simple narrative. Consciousness is more advanced and carries complex memories. Awareness may not recognize its own reflection, but consciousness does. Maybe I'm just being silly (only a conscious mind could think that).

 

Brains consists of molecules mechanically working together, and there's absolutely nothing about them, that explains either awareness or consciousness, so there has to be something more, and the only extra thing I could think of is that brains are ionized. Ionized collections of patterned neurons. I haven't gotten further than that, sorry.

A way to test it could be to remove the negative charge and see what happens. All we need are volunteers.... (sorry, it can't be me, I can't fit it into my schedule!)

Hey my friend this Journal in Nature may help.

The Emergence of Human Consciousness: From Fetal to Neonatal Life: https://www.nature.com/articles/pr20095

Be well Zep.

[+joc]

1 hour ago, zep73 said:

Qualia. Having a narrative (albeit very simple for cats and dogs). I chose the word aware instead of conscious, because consciousness needs language, or atleast concepts.
Awareness is able to tell friend from foe, and adapt behavior according to a simple narrative. Consciousness is more advanced and carries complex memories. Awareness may not recognize its own reflection, but consciousness does. Maybe I'm just being silly (only a conscious mind could think that).

 

Brains consists of molecules mechanically working together, and there's absolutely nothing about them, that explains either awareness or consciousness, so there has to be something more, and the only extra thing I could think of is that brains are ionized. Ionized collections of patterned neurons. I haven't gotten further than that, sorry.

A way to test it could be to remove the negative charge and see what happens. All we need are volunteers.... (sorry, it can't be me, I can't fit it into my schedule!)

@papageorge1 Hey...this sounds like a great opportunity for you!  Want to volunteer? 

[Trelane]

4 hours ago, Nobu said:

Boston crème pie….

 

cake or pie?

Pie is fine but cake is better.

[papageorge1]

2 hours ago, joc said:

@papageorge1 Hey...this sounds like a great opportunity for you!  Want to volunteer? 

@zep73 sounds right when he implied mechanical action of atoms and electrons does not seem to explain consciousness

Not understanding the 'ionization' part and am a little reluctant to volunteer for that mad scientist zep's experiment. My schedule is suddenly a little tight for the next millennium or two. Maybe after that though.

[psyche101]

5 hours ago, zep73 said:

Brains consists of molecules mechanically working together, and there's absolutely nothing about them, that explains either awareness or consciousness, so there has to be something more, and the only extra thing I could think of is that brains are ionized. Ionized collections of patterned neurons. I haven't gotten further than that, sorry.

The mental workshop. 

A neural network of synaptic connections. It works so we can take different concepts and meld them. It's how you can imagine an elephant dancing on the head of a pin. 

The brain runs roughly seven major networks. 

That is what explains consciousness. Every connection in your brain using the sum of your experiences to cross network and extrapolate outcomes. 

5 hours ago, zep73 said:

A way to test it could be to remove the negative charge and see what happens. All we need are volunteers.... (sorry, it can't be me, I can't fit it into my schedule!)

I'm sure some posters, not naming anyone's papa or anything, already have I'd say. 

[psyche101]

2 hours ago, Trelane said:

Pie is fine but cake is better.

Depends on the pie and the cake. And the time of day.....

[Abramelin]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:08 AM, joc said:

When I look in the mirror I see me and I know that it is me.  When a dog looks in the mirror does it know that the dog in the reflection is itself?

Maybe not dogs or cats:

 

[XenoFish]

On 5/10/2022 at 8:01 PM, Jon the frog said:

Yep, lots of stuff can happen... autodestruction, the sun fry us all, a comet or asteroid blow us out, etc...

In 400 000 years we would probably evolved back into low IQ sick monkey with the lack of natural selection anyway...

Taliking about sun frying us, lets bring some cosmic rays sunscreen soon :

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/08/19/south-atlantic-anomaly-dent-earths-magnetic-field-growing/3398864001/

It'll be the dolphin people who make first contact.

[zep73]

On 5/11/2022 at 2:44 AM, Manwon Lender said:

Hey my friend this Journal in Nature may help.

The Emergence of Human Consciousness: From Fetal to Neonatal Life: https://www.nature.com/articles/pr20095

Be well Zep.

Thank you, my friend! Please read my reply to psyche101 below, which is also for you.

 

On 5/11/2022 at 8:16 AM, psyche101 said:

The mental workshop. 

A neural network of synaptic connections. It works so we can take different concepts and meld them. It's how you can imagine an elephant dancing on the head of a pin. 

The brain runs roughly seven major networks. 

That is what explains consciousness. Every connection in your brain using the sum of your experiences to cross network and extrapolate outcomes. 

Yes, that is the correlation between brain scans and consciousness. It tells us the area that seems to produce our consciousness. But all that brings us no closer to the how!

How can a lump of fat produce a personality? Feelings, hopes and dreams? Solve complex problems? How can dead atoms and molecules become more than the sum of their parts, in such an extreme degree?

The unobservable nature of consciousness entails that any theory of consciousness, that goes beyond mere correlations, is untestable.

That statement comes from this article. The article also talks about the option that consciousness could be related to electrons! @joc

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by zep73

[Grim Reaper 6]

20 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Thank you, my friend! Please read my reply to psyche101 below, which is also for you.

 

Yes, that is the correlation between brain scans and consciousness. It tells us the area that seems to produce our consciousness. But all that brings us no closer to the how!

How can a lump of fat produce a personality? Feelings, hopes and dreams? Solve complex problems? How can dead atoms and molecules become more than the sum of their parts, in such an extreme degree?

The unobservable nature of consciousness entails that any theory of consciousness, that goes beyond mere correlations, is untestable.

That statement comes from this article. The article also talks about the option that consciousness could be related to electrons! @joc

 

Thanks my friend that’s a very interesting concept, I also read the article which was also more than enlightening. I have been focusing my study of the subject on when a fetus first exhibits or experience’s consciousness. This has been because of the current issues concerning abortion in the United States. For me until a fetus develops to a point where they exhibit signs of conscious behavior are they true are not a living being, they are just a growth of tissue. To me until a fetus develops consciousness  it can’t be sentient and therefore an abortion is not killing living entity or being.

The points you made above 'I have considered so I agree it is untestable and that currently we can only measure it by Actions, Behavior, and electronic activity in the brain. Below is another journal that discusses this concept, if you get time please read it you may find it interesting my friend.

Thnaks for the response my friend I hope we can participate in more discussions together I enjoy your input.

Hope you and yours are healthy and safe Zep.

Making of the mind: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/apa.15167

 

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, zep73 said:

Thank you, my friend! Please read my reply to psyche101 below, which is also for you.

 

Yes, that is the correlation between brain scans and consciousness. It tells us the area that seems to produce our consciousness. But all that brings us no closer to the how!

How can a lump of fat produce a personality? Feelings, hopes and dreams? Solve complex problems? How can dead atoms and molecules become more than the sum of their parts, in such an extreme degree?

The unobservable nature of consciousness entails that any theory of consciousness, that goes beyond mere correlations, is untestable. (The statement comes from this article.)

 

Panpsychism?

What would you expect a philosopher to say? 

You do get that these days physics answers the questions philosophy still ponders? It's usage in a modern world is limited. 

In that article, Goff states that the process is unobservable.

Not true.

Watch chemicals turn into memories - the first time this has ever been recorded.

Scientists have known for a while that our memories are the process are synaptic transmissions in our brain and are stored in neurons, but they have been able to film the actual process for the first time inside of a mouse. This groundbreaking video was made in the lab of Robert Singer of Albert Einstein College of Medicine 

It's been observed. He also doesn't offer mention of the attention schema theory either, nor the mental workshop. Or the change in grey matter in your brain as these experiences accumulate and network. 

Sorry Zep, I'm not convinced that the article is anything more than a philosophical fluff piece.

Edited May 13, 2022 by psyche101

[zep73]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Panpsychism?

What would you expect a philosopher to say? 

You do get that these days physics answers the questions philosophy still ponders? It's usage in a modern world is limited. 

In that article, Goff states that the process is unobservable.

Not true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.iflscience.com/brain/watch-chemicals-turn-memories-first-time-has-ever-been-recorded/

It's been observed. He also doesn't offer mention of the attention schema theory either, nor the mental workshop. 

Sorry Zep, I'm not convinced that the article is anything more than a philosophical fluff piece.

Ah, you misunderstood my intentions. The article was not a response or an expression of my opinion. It just showed some interesting facts and ideas.

I'm neither of the opinion that consciousness can never be explained. I'm just stating the undeniable truth that qualia - the feeling of existing and being in control, of experiencing life in a unique personal way - might never be fully understood by science. Being you or me can probably never be mapped out and explained in details. How neurons make you you. Remember, they are just ionized molecules. Totally dead. How does dead molecules make your inner world?

Note: I'm not trying to drag this discussion in a spiritual direction. I just have a skeptical inquiry about dead molecules making something as extraordinary as consciousness.

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Ah, you misunderstood my intentions. The article was not a response or an expression of my opinion. It just showed some interesting facts and ideas.

Problem being is it is lacking too many facts for the time it was written. It's deliberately omitting a great deal of information to arrive at nowhere. Which is how philosophy often ends up. 

You did realise the author is a philosopher, not a physicist or neuro surgeon?

2 minutes ago, zep73 said:

I'm neither of the opinion that consciousness can never be explained. I'm just stating the undeniable truth that qualia - the feeling of existing and being in control, of experiencing life in a unique personal way - might never be fully understood by science. Being you or me can probably never be mapped out and explained in details. How neurons make you you. Remember, they are just ionized molecules. Totally dead. How does dead molecules make your inner world?

Ionization is transferring energy to matter. Like how a thought can be stored as a chemical, wouldn't you agree? 

A relay isn't autonomous either, but networks don't work without them. We have a lifetime of chemically stored information in grey matter networked by white matter.

Grey matter is the brains processor, white matter are the pathways, or network. 

Every memory is stored chemically and becomes your consciousness.

2 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Note: I'm not trying to drag this discussion in a spiritual direction. I just have a skeptical inquiry about dead molecules making something as extraordinary as consciousness.

I'd suggest probably not going to philosophy in that instance. IMHO, philosophy has little value in science. It's not useless altogether, but it's not very fruitful either.

[zep73]

@psyche101 I agree with you mostly. I just don't think you realize how extraordinary consciousness really is. It's not just something you can solve like a puzzle and move on.
It is the greatest mystery of life, besides life itself.

Philosophy is the heart of science. It is the bridge between laymen and physicists. It is the glue that binds all of science into one big tale. It is the explanation.
If you are solely into physics, I understand you position, because from that point of view, philosophy is useless.