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Alien civilizations could be doomed to stagnate or collapse


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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, UM-Bot said:

Two researchers have come up with a possible answer as to why we have yet to encounter intelligent aliens.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/news/357590/alien-civilizations-could-be-doomed-to-stagnate-or-collapse

Nonsense!:no:

JIMO

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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This idea is based on the idea (probably incorrect) idea that all aliens are just like us with the same failings and stupidities. IF aliens are out there and spreading then they are very unlikely to be anything like us. We spend too much of our energies fighting an killing each-other to amount to much of an interplanetary species much less and interstellar one.

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49 minutes ago, DanL said:

This idea is based on the idea (probably incorrect) idea that all aliens are just like us with the same failings and stupidities. IF aliens are out there and spreading then they are very unlikely to be anything like us.

Once again astrobiologists making a hypothesis based on a sample of one. They might as well have written the plot for a science fiction novel.

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I think there are many reason why we haven't had contact.  Maybe the small slice of time we are in is too late or too early so be alive together. 

i assume there is probably just a small % on intelligent life out there.   Who knows what kinds of living things may be on livable planets.   The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.   Dinosaurs ruled for 165 million years.  Humans have only been around for around 250,000 years and only technologically advanced enough to send signals for the past 50 or so years.  They may just be too far away.

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10 hours ago, UM-Bot said:

Two researchers have come up with a possible answer as to why we have yet to encounter intelligent aliens.

Two builders could come up with a 'possible' answer as to why we have yet to encounter intelligent aliens.

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2 hours ago, Myles said:

I think there are many reason why we haven't had contact.  Maybe the small slice of time we are in is too late or too early so be alive together. 

i assume there is probably just a small % on intelligent life out there.   Who knows what kinds of living things may be on livable planets.   The Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.   Dinosaurs ruled for 165 million years.  Humans have only been around for around 250,000 years and only technologically advanced enough to send signals for the past 50 or so years.  They may just be too far away.

The question of intelligent life in our Universe is a major issue in the Scientific community. Like you said above the Earth is approximately 4.5 Billion years old ( Actually our entire Solar System ) in a a Universe that’s approximately 13.7 Billion years old so in our grand scheme of things our Solar System is young. The two major schools of thought on this subject is that either life is rare or it’s very plentiful across our Universe and this comes from astrophysics and astrobiologists. Theoretically it is possible that civilizations and intelligent alien species have risen and died out, because of natural catastrophes, self destruction or others reasons we have not considered yet.

In my opinion it’s very difficult to believe that life is so rare in a Universe filled with the same chemical components that allowed life to begin and thrive on Earth, or planets that can support some form of life are rare. Then when you look at the age of our Universe and our Solar System it becomes theoretically very possible that life could have began, developed intelligence, and still exists on other planets more than a Billion years before the our Solar System even existed. Like I said above if that’s the case certainly some of those civilizations and species have died out, but it’s possible some may still exist. Which would make their technology developed capable of hiding from our detection methods.

If species like I am describing do exist and are advanced there is no way to know what form of communication technology they even use, it’s assumed that Binary is the true Universal language and communication method.  It’s very possible that when they reached our level of technology and were using communication systems similar to ours, our Solar system did not even exist and therefore signals we would recognize today May have passed by our Solar system before we could interpret them. It seems to me that an advanced civilizations theoretically do exist that are far beyond our level of technology along with civilizations at and below our level of technology.

I believe life across the Universe is plentiful, the question for me is what are these species compromised of, are they Carbon based like us, or is that life based upon a different element, and it’s reasonable to also assume that most of this life may not be what we call intelligent ( animal or other biological life forms ). This is a very interesting subject, that I doubt will be answered anytime some but one thing I firmly don’t believe is that extraterrestrials have had any hand in our development or that they have ever visited Earth. Our planet is a fly speck of dust in the Universe, and there is nothing here ( resources) that an advanced extraterrestrial species could not find in millions of other places in the Universe.

JIMO

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5 hours ago, DanL said:

This idea is based on the idea (probably incorrect) idea that all aliens are just like us with the same failings and stupidities. IF aliens are out there and spreading then they are very unlikely to be anything like us. We spend too much of our energies fighting an killing each-other to amount to much of an interplanetary species much less and interstellar one.

Cool enlightened misanthropy man.  But, how does self loathing disprove asymptotic burnout?

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"Growth outstrips  their demand for energy" seems like a flimsy foundation to base this hypothesis.  On the Kardashev scale, that might be a Type I Civilization, but they can still plod along.  Energy might not be much of a problem at all for higher civilizations. 

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17 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

In my opinion it’s very difficult to believe that life is so rare in a Universe filled with the same chemical components that allowed life to begin and thrive on Earth

i agree

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6 hours ago, DanL said:

We spend too much of our energies fighting an killing each-other 

no we do not!! the vast majority of folk on this planet just want to live in peace

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54 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

"Growth outstrips  their demand for energy" seems like a flimsy foundation to base this hypothesis.  On the Kardashev scale, that might be a Type I Civilization, but they can still plod along.  Energy might not be much of a problem at all for higher civilizations. 

Won't demand for energy be an exponential formula.  While available energy might be something like a constant multiplied by area or volume.

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Posted (edited)

Ancient civilizations could be populated by ronald mcdonald lookalikes.

Whatever you can think of is a "could be". You don't need a doctorate to think in maybes.

Edited by moonman
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3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

In my opinion it’s very difficult to believe that life is so rare in a Universe filled with the same chemical components that allowed life to begin and thrive on Earth, or planets that can support some form of life are rare.

Life isn't just the product of a bunch of chemicals. It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events.

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10 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events.

i disagree.... i think these 'conditions' are the norm in the universe

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

Life isn't just the product of a bunch of chemicals. It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events.

Well sorry your confused, but life on Earth began from a series of chemical compounds. Above you say that It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events, and I don’t disagree that certain conditions and events must occur the question is how unlikely is this?

According to biologists and astrobiologists various environments have been proposed as plausible sites for the origin of life. However, discussions have focused on a limited stage of chemical evolution, or emergence of a specific chemical function of proto-biological systems. It remains unclear what geochemical situations could drive all the stages of chemical evolution, ranging from condensation of simple inorganic compounds to the emergence of self-sustaining systems that were evolvable into modern biological ones.

Chemical evolution requires at least eight reaction conditions of (1) reductive gas phase, (2) alkaline pH, (3) freezing temperature, (4) fresh water, (5) dry/dry-wet cycle, (6) coupling with high energy reactions, (7) heating-cooling cycle in water, and (8) extraterrestrial input of life's building blocks and reactive nutrients. The necessity of these mutually exclusive conditions clearly indicates that life's origin did not occur at a single setting; rather, it required highly diverse and dynamic environments that were connected with each other to allow intra-transportation of reaction products and reactants through fluid circulation.

Thanks for the chance to respond, that’s the only respectful manner to handle things when you give someone a Confused emoji!

Origins of building blocks of life: A review: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1674987117301305

Edited by Manwon Lender
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8 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

i disagree.... i think these 'conditions' are the norm in the universe

Well there are certainly theories that point in both directions, I agree with you completely!

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Maybe we haven’t encountered intelligent aliens because there aren’t any.  But, what most likely does exist is intelligent human beings and supercomputers from the future.

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I think there is a middle road when it comes to analyzing the factors that lead to life and eventually intelligent life here. There certainly needed be specific chemicals and reactions to occur. There also are the facts we have a unique moon in regard to our planet and also our large gas giants that have saved the planet many times from massive collisions. 

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15 hours ago, Dejarma said:

i disagree.... i think these 'conditions' are the norm in the universe

What specific conditions are you talking about? And why did you put conditions in quotes?

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15 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Well sorry your confused, but life on Earth began from a series of chemical compounds. Above you say that It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events, and I don’t disagree that certain conditions and events must occur the question is how unlikely is this?

I don't think my confused. These chemicals didn't just appear out of nowhere. They were generated through events. If you study the history of Earth you'll find that it went through several changes that allowed the creation of life, and most importantly, prevented its destruction.

15 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Chemical evolution requires at least eight reaction conditions of (1) reductive gas phase, (2) alkaline pH, (3) freezing temperature, (4) fresh water, (5) dry/dry-wet cycle, (6) coupling with high energy reactions, (7) heating-cooling cycle in water, and (8) extraterrestrial input of life's building blocks and reactive nutrients. The necessity of these mutually exclusive conditions clearly indicates that life's origin did not occur at a single setting; rather, it required highly diverse and dynamic environments that were connected with each other to allow intra-transportation of reaction products and reactants through fluid circulation.

Yes, read this paper!!! Each theory (and they are just theories) clearly describes a long series of extremely unlikely events and conditions. As you know the likelihood of a series of events is the product of all its probabilities so the end result is gigantically improbable.

This huge paper also leaves out many many other critical factors, like what was needed to keep life from destruction. Well it did touch on bombardment but didn't acknowledge how fortunate that bombardment stopped because it would have exterminated all early life. There easily could have been an event that changed Earth's environment enough to wipe out all life. Somehow Earth avoided this.

It also didn't include a fundamental problem of life: it consumes all resources and dies. This nearly led to the destruction of all life on Earth two billion years ago.

Unfortunately getting from life to an intelligent civilization is vastly more complicated topic than what that paper described. If things had gone differently, Earth could still be inhabited by unintelligent dinosaurs right now with no intelligent beings anywhere.

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5 hours ago, astrobeing said:

What specific conditions are you talking about?

you tell me.... you said: It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events.

i didn't say that.............what 'extremely unlikely conditions' are YOU referring to?

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14 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

you tell me.... you said: It was created through a series of extremely unlikely conditions and events.

i didn't say that.............what 'extremely unlikely conditions' are YOU referring to?

So when you said...

Quote

i disagree.... i think these 'conditions' are the norm in the universe

... you didn't know what conditions I was talking about, yet you claimed they were "the norm" in the universe?

And now you're asking me to tell you what you disagreed with?

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45 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

.. you didn't know what conditions I was talking about, yet you claimed they were "the norm" in the universe?

And now you're asking me to tell you what you disagreed with?

Oh right-- ALL the conditions (whatever they are is irrelevant with regards to looking at it in general) that created life on earth. 
Many people suggest life in our universe is rare because the likelihood of these conditions all coming together to create life is highly unlikely....

I'm suggesting it may not be as rare as some seem to think... IMO all these amazing conditions are normal throughout the universe & life is abundant.

I mean, what's the point of such a vast universe if there's nothing much living in it= just tons of rocks & gas.. Oh well, what do I know- it's just an opinion/ feeling whatever

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