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Turkey backtracking on not closing door to Sweden, Finland NATO entry, Erdogan advisor says


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ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Turkey has not shut the door to Sweden and Finland joining NATO but wants negotiations with the Nordic countries and a clampdown on what it sees as terrorist activities especially in Stockholm, President Tayyip Erdogan's spokesman said on Saturday. Erdogan surprised NATO members and the two Nordic countries seeking membership by saying on Friday it was not possible for Turkey to support enlarging the alliance because Finland and Sweden were "home to many terrorist organisations". 

For years it has criticised Sweden and other European countries for their handling of organisations deemed terrorists by Turkey, including the followers of U.S.-based Islamic cleric Fethullah Gulen. Kalin said Russia's sharp criticism of Finland and Sweden over their plans was not a factor in Turkey's position. NATO membership is always a process. We will see how things go. But this is the first point that we want to bring to the attention of all the allies as well as to Swedish authorities," he added. "Of course we want to have a discussion, a negotiation with Swedish counterparts."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/exclusive-turkey-not-closing-door-to-sweden-finland-nato-entry-erdogan-advisor-says/ar-AAXgkQV?ocid=EMMX&cvid=0b6cf25a9b6a407f822e32e7aef3f85b

 

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I sympathize with the Kurdish freedom fighters, but that is not our fight. European security is. So I for one accept their terms. But it will not be forgotten.

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I don't see Turkey backtracking. Either they get want they want (Finland and Sweden drop all support to Kurdish groups) or they block their memberships.

Seems there will be some negotiations.

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2 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I don't see Turkey backtracking. Either they get want they want (Finland and Sweden drop all support to Kurdish groups) or they block their memberships.

Seems there will be some negotiations.

No **** Sherlock. Both sides will get something they want, the Kurds as always will take it in the **** and the West won’t care.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, zep73 said:

I sympathize with the Kurdish freedom fighters, but that is not our fight. European security is. So I for one accept their terms. But it will not be forgotten.

I had Kurdish interpreters when I was working as a contractor in Iraq and Syria, and the Kurds are the only people I would trust with my life in the Middle East my friend. All my trips to the Middle East, I used the same Kurdish Interpreter and the same Kurdish soldiers for security when myself and my people were outside the cantonment area. I don’t think they are in any position to dictate policy while they are still allowing Russian forces to use their Airspace and and since they control access to the Black-sea they still have not blocked Russian access to the Black Sea. Which has allowed Russian Battleships to shell Ukrainian positions from the Black-sea.

I don’t trust Turkey, they have been moving towards Russian influence for many years now. In fact the United States and Germany have canceled their defense contracts for Aircraft and Tanks because of War Crimes in Syria in addition to their support of Russia in many cases.

 Be well Zep!

Edited by Manwon Lender
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30 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

I don't see Turkey backtracking. Either they get want they want (Finland and Sweden drop all support to Kurdish groups) or they block their memberships.

Seems there will be some negotiations.

Finland and Sweden will not drop their support for the Kurds. They most likely will crack down and prevent Kurds living in their countries from harassing Turkey but that’s as far as it will go!

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I'm convinced that Erdogan will eventually leave NATO and align with Russia.  It's just a matter of time.

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1 minute ago, and then said:

I'm convinced that Erdogan will eventually leave NATO and align with Russia.  It's just a matter of time.

I agree with you and so does our country, as we speak the US is preparing to remove the remainder of the Nuclear Weapons stored in Turkey and the fact that they canceled the F-35 sales contract says it all for me!:yes:

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35 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Finland and Sweden will not drop their support for the Kurds. They most likely will crack down and prevent Kurds living in their countries from harassing Turkey but that’s as far as it will go!

“What needs to be done is clear: They have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to … exist in those countries,” he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/14/turkey-criticises-swedish-and-finnish-support-for-pkk

I don't think we'll see Finland and Sweden join NATO anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

I don't think we'll see Finland and Sweden join NATO anytime soon.

Perhaps... but Turkey cannot constrain any NATO nation from giving them security guarantees, as the UK has in one case.  It looks more and more every day as if this world is marching back into the same old evil.  I guess its time has come around again.

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38 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

“What needs to be done is clear: They have to stop allowing PKK outlets, activities, organisations, individuals and other types of presence to … exist in those countries,” he said.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/14/turkey-criticises-swedish-and-finnish-support-for-pkk

I don't think we'll see Finland and Sweden join NATO anytime soon.

You bring up the Kurds, well Turkey is fully responsible for the Kurdish uprisings that have occurred according to Civil Rights Organizations According to human rights organisations since the beginning of the uprising 4,000 villages have been destroyed, in which between 380,000 and 1,000,000 Kurdish villagers have been forcibly evacuated from their homes, mainly by the Turkish military.  What 1ctually needs to done is for to do research before you post disinformation and sadly Russian Propaganda.

Its very sad that you are unable or refuse to see that your comments are always criticized here because of your comments are based upon opinion, present half truths, or because they amount to propaganda. Misinformation and Disinformation. I would like to get along with you, but honestly many of your comments make me angry because in far to many cases you comments do not match what I have personally seen, and the fact that attack the character of people who I worked with over a number of years.

Think about what I am saying and if you do few people here will criticize you, because most here including myself do not hold grudge’s.

Be well!

Abuses by the Turkish side

Since the 1970s, the European Court of Human Rights has condemned Turkey for thousands of human rights abuses against Kurdish people.[The judgments are related to systematic executions of Kurdish civilians, forced recruitments, torturing, forced displacements, thousands of destroyed villages] arbitrary arrests, murdered and disappeared Kurdish journalists. The latest judgments are from 2014. According to David L. Philips, more than 1,500 people affiliated with the Kurdish opposition parties and organizations were murdered by unidentified assailants between 1986 and 1996. The government backed mercenaries assassinated hundreds of suspected PKK sympathizers.The Turkish government is held responsible by Turkish human rights organizations for at least 3,438 civilian deaths in the conflict between 1987 and 2000.

Massacres

In November 1992, the Turkish gendarmerie officers forced the leader of the Kelekçi village to evacuate all of the inhabitants, before shooting at them and their houses with heavy weapons. The soldiers set up fire to nine houses and forced all villagers to flee. Later soldiers burned the rest of the village and destroyed all 136 houses.

In 1993, Mehmet Ogut, his pregnant wife and all their seven children were burned to death by Turkish special forces soldiers. The Turkish authorities initially blamed the PKK and refused to investigate the case until it was opened again 17 years later. The investigations eventually came to an end in late 2014 with sentences of life imprisonment for three gendarme officers, a member of the special forces and nine soldiers.

In August 1993, Turkish security forces opened fire during the protest, killing 10 people and wounding 51.

On 8 September 1993, the Turkish Air Force dropped a bomb near the Munzur mountains, killing 2 women. In the same year, Turkish security forces attacked the town of Lice, destroying 401 houses, 242 shops and massacring more than thirty civilians, and leaving one hundred wounded.

On 26 March 1994 the Turkish military planes (F-16's) and a helicopter circled two villages and bombed them, killing 38 Kurdish civilians.The Turkish authorities blamed the PKK and took pictures of the dead children and spread in the press. The European Court of Human rights condemned Turkey to pay 2,3 million euros to the families of victims. The event is known as the Kuşkonar massacre.

In 1995, Human Rights Watch reported that it was common practice for Turkish soldiers to kill Kurdish civilians and take pictures of their corpses with weapons they carried only for staging the events. Killed civilians were shown to press as PKK "terrorists".

In 1995, The European newspaper published in its front-page pictures of Turkish soldiers who posed for camera with the decapitated heads of the KurdishPKK fighters. Kurdish fighters were beheaded by Turkish special forces soldiers.

In late March 2006, the Turkish security forces who tried to prevent the funerals of the PKK fighters clashed with the demonstrators, killing at least eight Kurdish protesters, including four children under the age of 10.

220px-Cizre_%C3%A7at%C4%B1%C5%9Fmalar%C4

 

In August 2015, Amnesty International reported that the Turkish government airstrikes killed eight residents and injured at least eight others – including a child – in a flagrantly unlawful attack on the village of Zergele, in the Kandil Mountains in the Kurdistan Region of Iraq.

On 21 January 2016, a report published by Amnesty International stated that more than 150 civilians had been killed in Cizre. According to Amnesty International, the curfews had been imposed in more than 19 different towns and districts, putting the lives of hundreds of thousands of people at risk. Additionally, the report stated that the government's disproportionate restrictions on movement and other arbitrary measures were resembling collective punishment, a war crime under the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

In 2019, Turkish soldiers killed 11 Kurdish civilians, 8 of them children in artillery attack.

Human Rights Watch notes in 1992 that:

  • As Human Rights Watch has often reported and condemned, Turkish government forces have, during the conflict with the PKK, also committed serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law, including torture, extrajudicial killings, and indiscriminate fire. We continue to demand that the Turkish government investigate and hold accountable those members of its security forces responsible for these violations. Nonetheless, under international law, the government abuses cannot under any circumstances be seen to justify or excuse those committed by Ocalan's PKK.
  • The Kurdish Workers Party (PKK), a separatist group that espouses the use of violence for political ends, continues to wage guerrilla warfare in the southeast, frequently in violation of international humanitarian law, or the laws of war. Instead of attempting to capture, question and indict people suspected of illegal activity, Turkish security forces killed suspects in house raids, thus acting as investigator, judge, jury and executioner. Police routinely asserted that such deaths occurred in shoot-outs between police and "terrorists". In many cases, eyewitnesses reported that no firing came from the attacked house or apartment. Reliable reports indicated that while the occupants of raided premises were shot and killed, no police were killed or wounded during the raids. This discrepancy suggests that the killings were summary, extrajudicial executions, in violation of international human rights and humanitarian law.[336]

Turkish–Kurdish human rights activists in Germany accused Turkey of using chemical weapons against PKK. Hans Baumann, a German expert on photo forgeries, investigated the authenticity of the photos and claimed that the photos were authentic. A forensics report released by the Hamburg University Hospital has backed the allegations. Claudia Roth from Germany's Green Party demanded an explanation from the Turkish government.The Turkish Foreign Ministry spokesman Selçuk Ünal commented on the issue. He said that he did not need to emphasize that the accusations were groundless. He added that Turkey signed to the Chemical Weapons Convention in 1997, and Turkey did not possess chemical weapons. 

In response to the activities of the PKK, the Turkish government placed Southeastern Anatolia, where citizens of Kurdish descent are in the majority, under military rule. The Turkish Army and the Kurdish village guards loyal to it have abused Kurdish civilians, resulting in mass migrations to cities.The Government claimed that the displacement policy aimed to remove the shelter and support of the local population and consequently, the population of cities such as Diyarbakır and Cizre more than doubled.However, martial law and military rule was lifted in the last provinces in 2002.

State terrorism

Since its foundation, the Republic of Turkey has pursued variously assimilationist and repressive policies towards the Kurdish people. At the beginning of the conflict, the PKK's relationship with its civilian supporters created incentives for the Turkish government to use terrorism against the Kurdish citizens in the Kurdish dominated southeast region of Turkey. Since the early 1980s, the authorities have systematically used arbitrary arrests, executions of suspects, excessive force, and torture to suppress the opponents. In 1993, the report published by Human Rights Watch stated:]

Kurds in Turkey have been killed, tortured and disappeared at an appalling rate since the coalition government of Prime Minister Suleyman Demirel took office in November 1991. In addition, many of their cities have been brutally attacked by security forces, hundreds of their villages have been forcibly evacuated, their ethnic identity continues to be attacked, their rights to free expression denied and their political freedom placed in jeopardy.

According to Human Rights Watch, the authorities even executed the Kurdish civilians and took the pictures of their corpses with the weapons, they carried for staging the events, in order to show them as Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK) "terrorists" to press. In 1995, another report published by Human Rights Watch stated:

Based on B.G.'s statement and substantial additional evidence, Human Rights Watch believes that the official government casualty estimates severely misrepresent the true number of civilians slain by government forces. It is likely that many of the persons referred to in the official estimates as "PKK casualties" were in fact civilians shot by mistake or deliberately killed by security forces. Witness testimony also demonstrates that many of the Turkish government's denials of wrong-doing by the Turkish security forces are fabrications manufactured by soldiers or officials somewhere along the government's chain of command.

Shooting and killing peaceful demonstrators was one of the methods the security forces used to spread fear. In 1992, the security forces killed more than 103 demonstrators, 93 of them during the celebration of Newroz in three Kurdish cities. No security force member was ever charged with any of the deaths. 

In the early 1990s, hundreds of people had disappeared after they had been taken into custody by security forces. Only in 1992, more than 450 people had been reportedly killed. Among those killed were journalists, teachers, doctors, human rights activists and political leaders. The security forces usually denied to have detained the victims but sometimes they claimed that they had released the victims after "holding them briefly".According to the Human Rights Association (İHD), there have been 940 cases of enforced disappearance since the 1990s. In addition to that, more than 3,248 people who were murdered in extrajudicial killings are believed to have been buried in 253 separate burial places. On 6 January 2011, the bodies of 12 people were found in a mass grave near an old police station in Mutki, Bitlis. A few months later, three other mass graves were reportedly found in the garden of Çemişgezek police station.[

In 2006, the former ambassador Rouleau stated that the continuing human rights abuses of ethnic Kurds is one of the main obstacles to Turkish membership of the EU.

Illegal abductions and enforced disappearances

During the 1990s and onward Turkish security services have detained Kurds, in some cases they were never seen again with only eyewitnesses coming forward to tell the story. In 1997, Amnesty International (AI) reported that disappearances and extrajudicial executions had emerged as new and disturbing patterns of human rights violations by the Turkish state.

The Stockholm Center for Freedom (SCF) documented eleven cases since 2016 in which people have been abducted by men identifying themselves as police officers. It appears to be mostly in the Turkish capital of Ankara as victims are forced into transit vans. Family members were unable to find out their locations from the state, indicating that they were detained secretly or by clandestine groups. In a case where one was finally located after 42 days missing, he was tortured for days, forced to sign a confession and handed over to police.

Torture

In August 1992, Human Rights Watch reported the vile practice of torture by security forces in Turkey. The victims of torture interviewed by Helsinki Watch had revealed the systematic practice of torture against detainees in police custody. Sixteen people had died in suspicious circumstances in police custody, ten of them Kurds in the Southeast.

In 2013, The Guardian reported that the rape and torture of Kurdish prisoners in Turkey are disturbingly commonplace. According to the report, published by Amnesty International in 2003, Hamdiye Aslan, a prisoner accused of supporting the Kurdish group, the PKK, had been detained in Mardin Prison, south-east Turkey, for almost three months in which she was reportedly blindfolded, anally raped with a truncheon, threatened and mocked by officers.

In February 2017, a report published by the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights stated the Turkish authorities had beaten and punched detainees, using sexual violence, including rape and threat of rape. In some cases, the detainees were photographed nude and threatened with public humiliation after being tortured by Turkish authorities.

Executions

On 24 February 1992, Cengiz Altun, the Batman correspondent for the weekly pro-Kurdish newspaper, Yeni Ülke, was killed.[353] More than 33 Kurdish journalists working for different newspapers were killed between 1990 and 1995. The killings of Kurdish journalists had started after the pro-Kurdish press had started to publish the first daily newspaper by the name of "Özgür Gündem" (Free Agenda). Musa Anter, a prominent Kurdish intellectual and journalist of Özgur Gundem, was assassinated by members of Gendarmerie Intelligence Organization in 1992.

In 1992, Turkish security forces executed seventy-four people in house raids and more than a hundred people in demonstrations.

In October 2016, amateur footage emerged showing Turkish soldiers executing two female PKK members they had captured alive.

In February 2017, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights published a report condemning the Turkish government for carrying out systematic executions, displacing civilians, and raping and torturing detainees in Southeastern Turkey.

In October 2019, nine people were executed, including Hevrin Khalaf, a 35-year-old Kurdish woman who was secretary-general of the Future Syria Party and who worked for interfaith unity.

 


 

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Erdogan playing world protagonist again.  Give the guy a stage.

 

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5 minutes ago, Black Red Devil said:

Erdogan playing world protagonist again.  Give the guy a stage.

 

Yes, he is and NATO along with the United States is fully aware of it. He is taking Turkey down a road that will lead to place the Turkish people dont want to go.:yes:

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Turkey has released its demands for what it wants to not veto Sweden and Finland joining NATO.  The demands are rather expected, they want both countries to clamp down on PKK activities in both countries essentially not allowing them to do financing in their countries it seems for the most part and Turkey wants both countries to lift sanctions on arm deals on Turkey.  

How this will all be resolved is not yet clear, more than likely some kind of concession will be made to appease Turkey but it's unlikely Turkey will get everything, they might not get any of their demands be receive something else instead to get them to shut up.

It's also important to remember next year is an election year in Turkey and Erdogan's voting block loves him taking a hardline stance against the PKK/Kurds so there will probably be a lot more theatrics and threats made before Sweden and Finland almost certainly join NATO.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DarkHunter said:

Turkey has released its demands for what it wants to not veto Sweden and Finland joining NATO.  The demands are rather expected, they want both countries to clamp down on PKK activities in both countries essentially not allowing them to do financing in their countries it seems for the most part and Turkey wants both countries to lift sanctions on arm deals on Turkey.  

How this will all be resolved is not yet clear, more than likely some kind of concession will be made to appease Turkey but it's unlikely Turkey will get everything, they might not get any of their demands be receive something else instead to get them to shut up.

It's also important to remember next year is an election year in Turkey and Erdogan's voting block loves him taking a hardline stance against the PKK/Kurds so there will probably be a lot more theatrics and threats made before Sweden and Finland almost certainly join NATO.

There really is no wiggle room. Turkey doesn't see Finland and Sweden positively. NATO ascension works by consensus. If Turkey blocks their applications, it's over. Seems those two countries have some tough negotiations and choices to make ahead of them.

Edited by Occult1
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7 minutes ago, Occult1 said:

There really is no wiggle room. Turkey doesn't see Finland and Sweden positively. NATO ascension works by consensus. If Turkey blocks their applications, it's over. Seems those two countries have some tough negotiations and choices to make ahead of them.

Turkey will negotiate, the whole thing is mostly a show for Erdogan to drum up support before next years election.  More than likely Sweden and Finland will lift weapon sanctions, Turkey will probably get a new trade deal with the EU or America, and they will probably make a show of protests but at the moment of voting will agree to Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

Turkey under Erdogan does this exact same thing every single time.

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Posted (edited)

We have the full list of demands from Turkey released by Bloomberg:

 

- Turkey asks Sweden and Finland to stop supporting PKK

-  Sweden and Finland to end arm sanctions against Turkey

- Turkey to be re-included in F-35 program

- End sanctions because of S-400s deal with Russia and allow F-16 purchases to Turkey.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-05-17/what-turkey-wants-from-sweden-and-finland-in-nato-expansion-spat

Edited by Occult1
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On 5/15/2022 at 4:49 AM, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

No **** Sherlock. Both sides will get something they want, the Kurds as always will take it in the **** and the West won’t care.

and this is how you loose trust around the world... by leting down those that fought side by side with you.

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Honestly I think its time Turkey (NATO) and Hungary (EU) are seriously lectured about their actions, at least the UK government, for the best and worst, had the balls (kudos to them) to have a referendum about their membership.

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Posted (edited)

Turkey Isn't Putin's Only Hope for Blocking NATO Expansion

''Croatia's president has joined his Turkish counterpart in not supporting the admittance of Sweden and Finland into NATO, a position that could be a boon to Russian President Vladimir Putin's opposition to the alliance expanding.

Croatian President Zoran Milanovic on Wednesday said he joins Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan in being against the Nordic countries' bid to become part of NATO. Erdoğan this week said he would oppose Sweden and Finland joining the alliance because of the countries' alleged support of Kurdish militants and other groups that he claimed are a threat to Turkey.''

https://www.newsweek.com/turkey-croatia-vladimir-putin-block-nato-expansion-1708285

 

That doesn't look good at all for Finland and Sweden's bid to join NATO.

Edited by Occult1
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On 5/14/2022 at 9:20 PM, and then said:

I'm convinced that Erdogan will eventually leave NATO and align with Russia.  It's just a matter of time.

When I was reading about Turkey stopped Finland and Sweden from joining, many comments were saying kick Turkey out of Nato.  Seeing the title of this thread didn't surprise me.  

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12 hours ago, Occult1 said:

That doesn't look good at all for Finland and Sweden's bid to join NATO.

Unfortunately the Croatian president doesnt have the power to block anything, the Croatian parliament and prime minister already came out supporting Sweden and Finland joining NATO and they are the ones who decide not the Croation president who essentially has no power in this particular area.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, DarkHunter said:

Unfortunately the Croatian president doesnt have the power to block anything, the Croatian parliament and prime minister already came out supporting Sweden and Finland joining NATO and they are the ones who decide not the Croation president who essentially has no power in this particular area.

There are reports that the Croatian president would order the country's permanent representatives to NATO to vote against the move. I'm sure not sure how much power does the president hold in Croatia but he seems intent on making the whole process a lot more difficult until he gets his way. There seems to be many obstacles standing in Finland and Sweden's path of ascension to NATO. At this point it may take years before they are admitted, if ever.

Edited by Occult1
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1 hour ago, Occult1 said:

There are reports that the Croatian president would order the country's permanent representatives to NATO to vote against the move. I'm sure not sure how much power does the president hold in Croatia but he seems intent on making the whole process a lot more difficult until he gets his way. There seems to be many obstacles standing in Finland and Sweden's path of ascension to NATO. At this point it may take years before they are admitted, if ever.

He can't order the permanent representatives to do anything, beyond ceremonial duties his only real power is in jointly picking ambassadors with the prime minister.  He has close to zero authority or power, even if he would somehow get his entire party to side with him it's only like 15 out of 151 seats of parliament which has essentially unanimous support for Finland and Sweden joining NATO.

I know you love the Russian narrative but Finland and Sweden will be NATO members quickly and it wont take years, probably not even months.

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4 hours ago, Occult1 said:

There are reports that the Croatian president would order the country's permanent representatives to NATO to vote against the move. I'm sure not sure how much power does the president hold in Croatia but he seems intent on making the whole process a lot more difficult until he gets his way. There seems to be many obstacles standing in Finland and Sweden's path of ascension to NATO. At this point it may take years before they are admitted, if ever.

No, there are no obstacles just lose talk. Both, Milanovic and Erdogan, will fold because without Nato they are nothing which History has proven. Sweden and Finland are a done deal.

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