Jan 6 public hearings Live

[+DieChecker]

4 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Based on the response of Republican Congress people.

I don't think you would, but Republican Congress people, all but about 15 either helped lead this or went along for the ride because POWER.  Those who stood up to Trump have been shoved aside.

Yeah, but like we always say. Both sides are doing that. You agree with everything Pelosi puts to a vote? Various Republican bills that are voted down are all bad legislation?

I think the House Republicans voted no to the Results, because they could, and knew the vote was symbolic, because there wasn't enough no votes to matter. Politics. Playing the Game. Seeking patronage from Trump supporters. Its about money, and staying in office. And sometimes you need to eat the poop pie.

Many of the various bills in 2021 had 75%-80% public support. And zero House/Senate support. So the public, even most Republicans, supported specific legislation, but the Rs 100% voted against. That Politics, not the will of the People. We shouldn't confuse the two.

I don't know.... Cheney is still in office. Several antiTrump Republicans have been winning in the Primaries. Georgia governor Kemp is a national favorite. But ranks in the top five of Trump hated Republicans. I think that the GOP is weaning itself from Trump like a mom with a three year old.

[Gromdor]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

And how many of the 2000 rioters were Proud Boys? How far in the building did they (Proud Boys) get? 

I understand their an extremist group and need to be reined in and punished, but there have been many Proud Boys riots in Portland, and they've yet to kill anyone here that I know of.

True. And likely thats why there's over 800 arrests. Many people, who otherwise would know better, got swept up in the riot and fought, and entered the building. 

Its also true that it would take only one guy actually killing someone, to set off wider scale violence. But, that didn't happen, and there's little real evidence that it even got close to that. Closest I can remember it people throwing things at the police, and one officer shooting at people breaking down a door. After being shot at most of the people ran, rather then mobbing the officer and killing him.

The way I am understanding it was that groups like the Proud Boys pre-met and planned to breach the capital.  There is the testiomy about the "tours" before as well.  To accomplish this, they helped incite the crowd then shepherded them to penetrate the defences.  The bulk of the protestors were cannon fodder but they joined in nonetheless.

It seems to me that you are arguing that it wasn't planned because most of the cannon fodder was ignorant.  

[Tiggs]

22 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Plus, I've not seen a single state that had a single "alternate" elector ready to go just in case.

Rudy had seven state's worth, ready to go:

The Department of Justice is conducting a criminal investigation into the formation of alternate slates of presidential electors for Donald Trump as part of a plan to undo President Joe Biden’s win in the 2020 election, The New York Times reported Thursday.

That probe is particularly focused on a team of attorneys who were working for Trump on that effort, The Times reported.

The newspaper said that a federal grand jury in Washington earlier this year issued subpoenas to people connected to the plan to put forward alternate electors. They sought information about Trump’s former personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, Giuliani’s colleague in the election cases, and another Trump lawyer, John Eastman.

On the heels of Election Day in November 2020, during which Biden won the popular vote, certificates purporting to be from Trump electors were sent from seven states that Biden had won: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Those slates were never honored in the Electoral College results, which Biden won.

Source: CNBC

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, Tiggs said:

More than a handful. They gathered as a group at the Washington Monument, prior to marching to the Capitol.
 

They were heavily involved in all of the breaches.

I can't post it here, due to strong language and violence -- but feel free to google "rile up the normies" for a recent video review of their activity on the 6th from the New York Times.

Hi Tiggs

Thanks I googled it and can see what you are saying about proud boys.

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Yeah, but like we always say. Both sides are doing that. You agree with everything Pelosi puts to a vote? Various Republican bills that are voted down are all bad legislation?

I think the House Republicans voted no to the Results, because they could, and knew the vote was symbolic, because there wasn't enough no votes to matter. Politics. Playing the Game. Seeking patronage from Trump supporters. Its about money, and staying in office. And sometimes you need to eat the poop pie.

Many of the various bills in 2021 had 75%-80% public support. And zero House/Senate support. So the public, even most Republicans, supported specific legislation, but the Rs 100% voted against. That Politics, not the will of the People. We shouldn't confuse the two.

I don't know.... Cheney is still in office. Several antiTrump Republicans have been winning in the Primaries. Georgia governor Kemp is a national favorite. But ranks in the top five of Trump hated Republicans. I think that the GOP is weaning itself from Trump like a mom with a three year old.

It did start out that way, but then it becomes a question of how far are you willing to go.  I will agree that both sides lie and do sleezy things to enrich themselves and stay in power.  Willingness to subvert the Constitution to stay in power  goes beyond that.  

Liz Cheney is still in office until the 2022 election.  Here is a concern of mine DieChecker, even if they abandon Trump will the Republicans have stretched the limits of acceptable behavior  so far that they will not want to step back in bounds.

[Opus Magnus]

What keeps coming to mind to me about this whole thing is when the British burned down the White House during the War of 1812. Both the Americans and British had Native American allies (the Lenape sided with the British).

Edited June 18, 2022 by Opus Magnus

[+DieChecker]

9 hours ago, Gromdor said:

The way I am understanding it was that groups like the Proud Boys pre-met and planned to breach the capital.  There is the testiomy about the "tours" before as well.  To accomplish this, they helped incite the crowd then shepherded them to penetrate the defences.  The bulk of the protestors were cannon fodder but they joined in nonetheless.

It seems to me that you are arguing that it wasn't planned because most of the cannon fodder was ignorant.  

Not really. I would concede the Proud Boys planned ahead. I'm asking... arguing... if Trump was the ringleader, or if he just lucked out they had pre planned. Which dovetailed in with his idea to incite the riot.

Was Trump leading the Proud Boys? Directly?

[+DieChecker]

8 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

It did start out that way, but then it becomes a question of how far are you willing to go.  I will agree that both sides lie and do sleezy things to enrich themselves and stay in power.  Willingness to subvert the Constitution to stay in power  goes beyond that.  

Liz Cheney is still in office until the 2022 election.  Here is a concern of mine DieChecker, even if they abandon Trump will the Republicans have stretched the limits of acceptable behavior  so far that they will not want to step back in bounds.

Thats a real concern. Limits seem to get stretched and then not returned to. Example is using the "nuclear option", to bypass Closure rules for filibuster. More and more things are going to just a majority vote, rather then a two thirds. 

I get your point. I can only hope whomever is the next R leader will be more civil, and more traditional. Often after radicals get into office, the next leaders are more moderate as a backlash.

We already had democrat Stacy Abrams, even before Trump, saying the Georgia governorship was stolen in an illegitimate election. She recanted to a degree though. I think "stolen election" will be a thing for a while. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by DieChecker

[Doug1066]

On 6/17/2022 at 11:11 AM, DieChecker said:

Yet.... All Trump voters are now considered violent insurrectionists.

Birds of a feather.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

9 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Rudy had seven state's worth, ready to go:

The Department of Justice is conducting a criminal investigation into the formation of alternate slates of presidential electors for Donald Trump as part of a plan to undo President Joe Biden’s win in the 2020 election, The New York Times reported Thursday.

That probe is particularly focused on a team of attorneys who were working for Trump on that effort, The Times reported.

The newspaper said that a federal grand jury in Washington earlier this year issued subpoenas to people connected to the plan to put forward alternate electors. They sought information about Trump’s former personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani, Jenna Ellis, Giuliani’s colleague in the election cases, and another Trump lawyer, John Eastman.

On the heels of Election Day in November 2020, during which Biden won the popular vote, certificates purporting to be from Trump electors were sent from seven states that Biden had won: Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, New Mexico, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. Those slates were never honored in the Electoral College results, which Biden won.

Source: CNBC

I did read about that. But the lists were created, but its unknown, I think, if any if those electors actually was even contacted to stand by. AFAIK, they were just names on lists. I could be wrong, and there was a whole secret readiness plan, but I've not seen that.

I thought the certificates sent were all fabrications, with some not given coming from people involved with the election at all. I dont know that to be true of all of them though. I'll look into it. 

[+DieChecker]

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I thought the certificates sent were all fabrications, with some not given coming from people involved with the election at all. I dont know that to be true of all of them though. I'll look into it. 

Here is what I found @Tiggs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election

So two of the alternate electors certificates were supposedly only if Trumps lawsuits succeeded in Pennsylvania and New Mexico. Sounds like maybe all though were just contrived groups of people not recognized as electors, even if Trump had won those states. No one recognized their status as official. And the National Archives weren't fooled for a minute.

Quote

Electoral College vote and "alternate" electors
On December 14, in accordance with the law, the local electors of the Electoral College met in each state capital and in the District of Columbia and formalized Biden's victory, with 306 electoral votes cast for Biden and 232 electoral votes cast for Trump.[290][291] On the same day that the true electors voted, at the direction of Trump campaign officials "alternate slates" of Republican electors convened in seven states where Biden had won by a relatively small margin (Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, New Mexico, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) to sign false certificates of ascertainment.[101][292] The Arizona Republican Party posted on its Twitter account a video of party members signing the certificates and issued a press release.[293] In another case a group of Republican activists claiming to be electors were filmed demanding entry to the Michigan State Capitol, but were barred entry by building security.[294] In each case the false electors signed a facsimile of an Electoral College certificate of ascertainment, proclaiming Trump and Pence the victors, and sent it to the National Archives and to Congress.[295] The alternate elector certificates for Pennsylvania and New Mexico contained language indicating they would take effect only if the Trump campaign’s challenges to the election results were sustained by the courts; but “alternate” certificates from the other five states contained no indication that they were not genuine.[296] These self-proclaimed electors have no legal standing, and the National Archives did not accept their documents, publishing the official (Biden) results from those states as the result of the election.[297][298]

 

[Tiggs]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Here is what I found @Tiggs

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_2020_United_States_presidential_election

So two of the alternate electors certificates were supposedly only if Trumps lawsuits succeeded in Pennsylvania and New Mexico. Sounds like maybe all though were just contrived groups of people not recognized as electors, even if Trump had won those states. No one recognized their status as official. And the National Archives weren't fooled for a minute.

Good. You're halfway there.

Now read about what they were going to use them for in the Eastman memos, and the plan for Pence.

[ExpandMyMind]

12 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Tiggs

Thanks I googled it and can see what you are saying about proud boys.

It was part of the testimony. There was a documentary crew following them around the time of the insurrection and one of them testified to there being 300 who went to the Capitol before Trump even started speaking.

Its posted about earlier in this thread as well.

[Gromdor]

11 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Not really. I would concede the Proud Boys planned ahead. I'm asking... arguing... if Trump was the ringleader, or if he just lucked out they had pre planned. Which dovetailed in with his idea to incite the riot.

Was Trump leading the Proud Boys? Directly?

Ah, you need to watch the Jan. 6 commision then.  

But we know Oath Keepers met with Proud Boys: (8) Proud Boys and Oath Keepers met in parking garage the night before insurrection, panel's findings show (cnn.com)

We know that Oath Keeprs hung out with/guarded Roger Stone: Six people who guarded Roger Stone stormed Capitol (yahoo.com)

We know that Roger Stone communicates with Trump, works with him, and has been pardoned by him before: But pled the fifth when subpeonaed by the commision: Roger Stone, Trump ally, pleads the Fifth in deposition with January 6 committee | CNN Politics

So to answer your question: No.  He led it directy about as much as he directly leads the housemaids at one of his hotels- but they still do what he wants, according to his wishes and orders.

 

(BTW- Do you remember that Stone was also the broken link in connecting the Russia/Wiki leaks connection to Trump in the Mueller Report? )

[spartan max2]

22 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Basically, I think that in a nation where that actually happened... We'd deserve what we got. 

You're asking me what I would do if my car was on fire and going to explode... When I know cars don't actually explode. It just doesn't happen without a great deal of help. Trump wasn't going to win. Not without a great deal of help. Help that just didnt exist.

Saying conservatives would be OK with it is basically like saying if Biden declared men could only marry men, and woman could only marry woman, and that liberal democrats would be OK with it. Its completely contrived, and based on a generally untrue stereotype.

Plus, I've not seen a single state that had a single "alternate" elector ready to go just in case. I dont think any of the GOP governors would have gone along with it. The riots that would happen would make the BLM riots look like My Little Pony tea parties. 

It simply wasn't... couldnt... didn't, happen. Odds Trump pulls out the win was near zero.

See, you guys keep acting like it's just some kind of fear mongering to be worried about the direction of the republican party. Yet things like this keep happening:

The new Texas Republican party platform counts the 2020 election as illegitimate and says homosexuality is a "abnormal lifestyle choice" 

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/18/republican-party-texas-convention-cornyn/?utm_campaign=trib-social&utm_content=1655588836&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 Plus that other thread I made that shows over half of Republicans winning primaries count the election as stolen.

Will voters expect their representative to follow through on these things...

Quote

Saying conservatives would be OK with it is basically like saying if Biden declared men could only marry men, and woman could only marry woman, and that liberal democrats would be OK with it. Its completely contrived, and based on a generally untrue stereotype.

In this situation I would atleast vote Republican and vote for rational Dems in the Democratic primary until these changes were removed. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by spartan max2

[ExpandMyMind]

On 6/18/2022 at 4:18 PM, DieChecker said:

Oh you are too funny. Based on what?

You think MOST Republicans would be OK with a Trump takeover... Even though like 90% to 95% of Trumps own WH staff didn't back him. Almost no one did.

Tell you what, make the big prediction of what will happen in the November Elections, and if you're right... I'll consider you as having much better political knowledge then me. 

Or just predict accurately what will come of Trump from this 1-6 committee...

Give me a reason to believe you're opinions are wise, and not just emotional wishing.

I have my opinions on both, and my opinions on what were Trumps odds of carrying off his 1-6 Plan.

If you're wrong, and I'm right... You won't have to eat crow, because knowing I'm right at that point would be enough for me.

Considering that a large portion of Republican voters just choose the pro Trump, 2020 election conspiracy-touting candidate, yes, I do believe you guys would just go with it.

Hell, the entire Texas GOP just declared the Biden presidency illegitimate.

What planet are you living on? Because your country is going down the shitter and you’re too busy looking at your 401k to even care about noticing.

[spartan max2]

In one recent poll majority of Americans say Trump should race charges for connection to Jan 6

Quote

The ABC News-Ipsos survey published on Sunday found that 58 percent of respondents said Trump should be criminally charged, while 40 percent of respondents said Trump should not face charges.

https://thehill.com/homenews/sunday-talk-shows/3529190-more-americans-say-trump-should-face-charges-in-connection-with-jan-6-poll/

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

Kizinger. The other Republican in the committee was mailed a death threat 

Quote

Republican Rep. Adam Kinzinger said he received a mailed threat to "execute" him and his family.

He said there will be "violence in the future" unless "politicians get a grip on telling people the truth."

Kinzinger is one of two Republicans on the Jan. 6 committee, which is holding public hearings about its investigation.

https://www.businessinsider.com/kinzinger-received-threat-execute-him-his-wife-5-month-old-2022-6

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by spartan max2

[Davros of Skaro]

[Autochthon1990]

9 hours ago, Davros of Skaro said:

...Call me crazy, but maybe the side that has actual facts borne out by investigations and evidence should be taken more seriously then the side that has...whatever the merry hell this atrocity is? 

[itsnotoutthere]

"What hinders the Democrats most of all in their attempt to finish off Trump is their self-evident double standards. They accuse Trump of encouraging the Capitol riot, yet they cheered on the BLM-led riots that followed George Floyd’s killing in May 2020. These were arguably far more destructive than anything seen on 6 January 2021. Indeed, the BLM-led riots in the summer of 2020 caused an estimated $2 billion in damages and left some two dozen dead.

The same double standards are at work when the Democrats claim that Trump’s fraudulent claims about the election have undermined confidence in the electoral system. They conveniently forget the fact that Hillary Clinton and her friends got there first, when they alleged that Trump’s 2016 victory was a product of Russian interference and therefore illegitimate. Their campaign to oust a democratically elected president, which culminated in the Mueller investigation, was as bad as anything Trump later tried. Democrats seem to have no idea how much of a beating their credibility took as a result of the dishonest Russiagate claims.

Indeed, the Democrats’ hypocrisy has been on full display during these new hearings. At the same time as the Democrats were denouncing Trump supporters for a physical attack on one institution of government (Congress), president Biden was conspicuously silent about the attack last week on another (the Supreme Court) and the foiled assassination attempt on Trump-backed Supreme Court justice Brett Kavanaugh.

What the ‘January 6’ hearings ultimately reveal is that Trump and the Democrats need one another. Both are stuck in the past, obsessed with the 2020 election and the riot in the Capitol. Most Americans do not share their obsession. They know that the problem they face today is not Trump, but Biden – whose approval ratings are even lower than those of his predecessor. Most Americans have moved on from Trump, and are looking forward to moving on from Biden. It’s about time our politicians caught up with them."

https://www.spiked-online.com/2022/06/16/these-january-6-hearings-are-a-farce/

Edited June 20, 2022 by itsnotoutthere

[Gromdor]

So here is a timeline breakdown of what happened, when, and who did it in regards to the whole fake electors scheme:  Timeline: The Trump team’s ‘fake elector’ plot (msn.com)

It even has links to the events embedded in it.

 

So far the crimes that Trump could be prosecuted for are:

Obstruction of a legal proceding of congress

Conspiracy to defraud the United States

Seditious Conspiracy

And funnily enough: Wire Fraud for bilking $250 million out of his supporters to "Combat Election Fraud" and not spending the money to do that.

[+DieChecker]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:51 AM, spartan max2 said:

See, you guys keep acting like it's just some kind of fear mongering to be worried about the direction of the republican party. Yet things like this keep happening:

The new Texas Republican party platform counts the 2020 election as illegitimate and says homosexuality is a "abnormal lifestyle choice" 

https://www.texastribune.org/2022/06/18/republican-party-texas-convention-cornyn/?utm_campaign=trib-social&utm_content=1655588836&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter

 Plus that other thread I made that shows over half of Republicans winning primaries count the election as stolen.

Will voters expect their representative to follow through on these things...

In this situation I would atleast vote Republican and vote for rational Dems in the Democratic primary until these changes were removed. 

Thats pretty crazy. Why not focus on the future rather then the past?

Did Texas put a reason on their bill they voted on, or is it just based on emotion like "Russian Collusion"?

[Gromdor]

3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Thats pretty crazy. Why not focus on the future rather then the past?

Did Texas put a reason on their bill they voted on, or is it just based on emotion like "Russian Collusion"?

It's not a bill.  It's their platform.  Basically, it is the definition of what you have to believe to be a Republican in Texas.

[+DieChecker]

On 6/19/2022 at 10:48 AM, ExpandMyMind said:

Considering that a large portion of Republican voters just choose the pro Trump, 2020 election conspiracy-touting candidate, yes, I do believe you guys would just go with it.

Hell, the entire Texas GOP just declared the Biden presidency illegitimate.

What planet are you living on? Because your country is going down the shitter and you’re too busy looking at your 401k to even care about noticing.

Well, I thought electing Biden was supposed to FIX everything. Elections would be rational again, he'd work to defuse hostility between the parties, bring prosperity, fight climate change, establish normalcy again. Yet he's failed and instead we have President Woke who is doing a lot of nothing.