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Jan 6 public hearings Live


spartan max2
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1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

Maybe in Australia.

I'm talking about America. George Floyd's murderer is in gaol. So is Kim Potter. Until he served his time,  Mohamed Noor was also behind bars.  

The vast vast majority of police who have acted inappropriately have been held accountable. 

Something tells me we have inbuilt assumptions in our world views that will stop us from agreeing. Best wishes, 

~ Regards,  PA

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Some make mistakes, some do more than that. When it happens they are held accountable. 

In the US it takes an extreme act to get a cop convicted of anything.  And when they file police reports and testify in court, they lie through their teeth.  A friend of my daughter's makes a good living suing cities whose police have screwed up, but are still employed.

 

On a personal note:  my daughter, the geologist, has accepted a job with the Corps of Engineers.  She starts Monday.  She has been out of work since March of 2020.  She is thoroughly disgusted with the oil business.

Doug

Edited by Doug1066
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10 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Using traffic tickets as a way to fund police and city governments - Ferguson, Missouri.  And many little towns throughout the USA.  We've all been caught in these, so much that it has become cliche'.

Civil forfeiture - a legal way for police to rob people.  Whatever happened to due process of law?

That's just two.  There are lots more.

Doug

We have issues with traffic tickets too. Here in Australia road users refer to it as "revenue raising". Happens to everyone! 

Civil forfeiture also appears to be reasonable. If someone on the poverty line is sitting in his house and they have $30,000 in cash sitting on their kitchen table, the police should reasonably question where it came from. If it's legit the owner should be able to account for the money. Otherwise it's a fair assumption that they came about it by nefarious means. 

By the way, the similar trait in these two examples is that they are not racist! Where is the law that says "only black people are subject to these rules"? 

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I'm talking about America. George Floyd's murderer is in gaol. So is Kim Potter. Until he served his time,  Mohamed Noor was also behind bars.  

The vast vast majority of police who have acted inappropriately have been held accountable. 

Something tells me we have inbuilt assumptions in our world views that will stop us from agreeing. Best wishes, 

~ Regards,  PA

You don't know everything that goes on in America.  You only what is in the media.    Cops do all kinds of things, mistakes, illegal, racist, etc and are often not held accountable.   George Floyd was a big deal and the outcome had to be that those cops were held accountable, however when that happened the same thing (that you never heard about) happend all over the country (often not race related) and only some of those cops were held accountable.   

Edited by Desertrat56
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Posted (edited)
41 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

If it's legit the owner should be able to account for the money

That frequently means you have to go to court.  Attornies don't work for free.  There goes your $30,000.  Win or lose, there's not much difference.

Coin dealers usually work in cash and may take $100,000 to a show.  If it is seized on the way to the show, that's the end of any profit they might have made.  And you can't sue for money you didn't make.

Wood dealers work in cash because they have to work with some shady characters you wouldn't want to take a check from.

There are lots of people who work in cash and the police, who should be defending them, often rob them.  We have a county sheriff here on Oklahoma who says he couldn't run his department without civil forfeiture.  His constituents didn't vote the money because they don't want a big police department.  Maybe he should take the hint.

Civil forfeiture only works when you have honest cops and even then it is iffy.

Doug

Edited by Doug1066
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1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

That frequently means you have to go to court.  Attornies don't work for free.  There goes your $30,000.  Win or lose, there's not much difference.

Coin dealers usually work in cash and may take $100,000 to a show.  If it is seized on the way to the show, that's the end of any profit they might have made.  And you can't sue for money you didn't make.

Wood dealers work in cash because they have to work with some shady characters you wouldn't want to take a check from.

There are lots of people who work in cash and the police, who should be defending them, often rob them.  We have a county sheriff here on Oklahoma who says he couldn't run his department without civil forfeiture.  His constituents didn't vote the money because they don't want a big police department.  Maybe he should take the hint.

Civil forfeiture only works when you have honest cops and even then it is iffy.

Doug

I'd rather argue specific examples. Has any coin dealer had to go to court to recoup $100,000? Moreover, as this discussion seems to be bleeding into issues of racism, what evidence is there that these particular laws exist to target minorities like black Americans? 

As such, even if I agreed with you that this law needs to be fixed, it's not because of racism, it'd be because the law is intrinsically unfair to Americans!

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2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

You don't know everything that goes on in America.  You only what is in the media.    Cops do all kinds of things, mistakes, illegal, racist, etc and are often not held accountable.   George Floyd was a big deal and the outcome had to be that those cops were held accountable, however when that happened the same thing (that you never heard about) happend all over the country (often not race related) and only some of those cops were held accountable.   

Cops aren't perfect, I get that. But they are doing the best they can, and I reject the claim that police routinely flaunt their own rules, I reject the claim that they routinely lie in investigations, this is conspiracy nonsense (in my humble opinion) based on a flawed understanding of how police work operates. I have no doubt that some have tried to do this, but I would rather look at specific examples of where this is alleged to have taken place rather than just make an assumption that this is what happens and they routinely get away with it. 

I just don't buy that narrative. It's not consistent with the facts that we have available. 

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6 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I'd rather argue specific examples. Has any coin dealer had to go to court to recoup $100,000? Moreover, as this discussion seems to be bleeding into issues of racism, what evidence is there that these particular laws exist to target minorities like black Americans? 

As such, even if I agreed with you that this law needs to be fixed, it's not because of racism, it'd be because the law is intrinsically unfair to Americans!

My brother-in-law is a coin dealer and while it wasn't $100,000, it was $20,000.  He got it back, but had to skip the show.

Parking and traffic tickets for minor offenses are used as a revenue-generating device by some (alright, a lot) of cities and towns.  In larger cities minorities are often targeted because they are in a poor situation to fight back.  In small towns, they target everybody and take their chances on who will fight the ticket.  Where I live, they target students for parking tickets (so does the university).  Students seem only too happy to cooperate by parking right under "No Parking" signs.

There's a simple way to put this practice out of business:  pay all tickets/fines into a state-managed fund that then distributes the money to cities/towns/counties on a per capita basis.  That way, if there is a need, the cop can write a ticket, but his employer won't get much of the money.

Doug

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

But they are doing the best they can,

Most are.  But there are a few bad apples.

19 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I reject the claim that they routinely lie in investigations,

Like I said, my daughter's camping buddy is an attorney who sues police departments over civil rights violations.  According to her, police lie all the time.  They're not very good at it, because she routinely catches them at it.

19 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

It's not consistent with the facts that we have available.

Maybe in Australia.

How about this one?  Happened in Tulsa.  Two EMTs were called to a domestic dispute.  The cops said they had already cleared the building.  The EMTs went inside to take care of a lady who had been stabbed and was lying in a leather arm chair.  While they were working on her they were attacked by her husband who had been passed out on the couch.  The police lied about having cleared the building.

Specific cases are hard to come up with because most of the information is under litigation and people are not allowed to talk about it.  I only know about the above case because I know the wounded EMT.

 

Here's another one:  https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/27/us/tulsa-deputy-manslaughter-trial/index.html

The lie was that the sheriff had certified Bates' training record when he hadn't had the training.  That resulted in a new sheriff next election.

 

Tulsa's original city marshal was a former member of the Dalton gang.  The police work in Tulsa hasn't improved much since.

Doug

Edited by Doug1066
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23 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Gallows in general,  not a joke at all.  This particular set of gallows - definitely a joke.  The fact that you guys are treating it like it's actually dangerous is the real joke,  though :lol:

At best it was a p*** poor facsimile but what's your opinion on leftist rallies bringing facsimile guillotines?

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1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

My brother-in-law is a coin dealer and while it wasn't $100,000, it was $20,000.  He got it back, but had to skip the show.

Parking and traffic tickets for minor offenses are used as a revenue-generating device by some (alright, a lot) of cities and towns.  In larger cities minorities are often targeted because they are in a poor situation to fight back.  In small towns, they target everybody and take their chances on who will fight the ticket.  Where I live, they target students for parking tickets (so does the university).  Students seem only too happy to cooperate by parking right under "No Parking" signs.

There's a simple way to put this practice out of business:  pay all tickets/fines into a state-managed fund that then distributes the money to cities/towns/counties on a per capita basis.  That way, if there is a need, the cop can write a ticket, but his employer won't get much of the money.

Doug

It sounds like if I agreed that this law needed to be repealed that it would be because it is unfairly affecting ALL Americans, not minorities. 

 

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Most are.  But there are a few bad apples.

Like I said, my daughter's camping buddy is an attorney who sues police departments over civil rights violations.  According to her, police lie all the time.  They're not very good at it, because she routinely catches them at it.

Maybe in Australia.

How about this one?  Happened in Tulsa.  Two EMTs were called to a domestic dispute.  The cops said they had already cleared the building.  The EMTs went inside to take care of a lady who had been stabbed and was lying in a leather arm chair.  While they were working on her they were attacked by her husband who had been passed out on the couch.  The police lied about having cleared the building.

Specific cases are hard to come up with because most of the information is under litigation and people are not allowed to talk about it.  I only know about the above case because I know the wounded EMT.

 

Here's another one:  https://www.cnn.com/2016/04/27/us/tulsa-deputy-manslaughter-trial/index.html

The lie was that the sheriff had certified Bates' training record when he hadn't had the training.  That resulted in a new sheriff next election.

 

Tulsa's original city marshal was a former member of the Dalton gang.  The police work in Tulsa hasn't improved much since.

Doug

Don't know much about the case, would have to look into it. My first thought is that there was miscommunication somewhere and someone got the wrong details. It doesn't necessarily make it a "lie". The context of "lies" we are discussing though, are after-action reports, committees and the like. Someone obviously dropped the ball (as there was a guy asleep on the couch), but unless the after-action reports have been sanitised to remove reference to this and it reads as if everything went smoothly, then it sounds like the reports are working the way they are supposed to. 

 

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55 minutes ago, Likely Guy said:

At best it was a p*** poor facsimile but what's your opinion on leftist rallies bringing facsimile guillotines?

As long as they are peaceful, and as long as the guillotine is functionally inoperable as a guillotine, I have no problem at all with leftists bringing this sort of thing to a protest. A leftist protestor erected a papier mache version of Donald Trump in his front yard and literally hanged the President.... that's free speech!

effigy-e1485886043484_29515252_ver1.0.jp

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9 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

As long as they are peaceful, and as long as the guillotine is functionally inoperable as a guillotine, I have no problem at all with leftists bringing this sort of thing to a protest. A leftist protestor erected a papier mache version of Donald Trump in his front yard and literally hanged the President.... that's free speech!

effigy-e1485886043484_29515252_ver1.0.jp

Wrong

 

It's not ok for either side. That's not free speech it's hate speech. 

And that is why Kathy Griffin got fired. Deservedly. Because it's the wrong thing to do  Even a scumbag like Trump should not be subjected to hate speech. 

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8 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Wrong

 

It's not ok for either side. That's not free speech it's hate speech. 

And that is why Kathy Griffin got fired. Deservedly. Because it's the wrong thing to do  Even a scumbag like Trump should not be subjected to hate speech. 

I guess I disagree.  I understand your point of view,  but in my opinion these are both examples of political speech,  protected in America under the First Amendment. 

At least you are consistent in your outlook, you'd be surprised how many people say that the Trump effigy was justified while still saying the gallows was wrong. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I guess I disagree.  I understand your point of view,  but in my opinion these are both examples of political speech,  protected in America under the First Amendment. 

Where is the hate speech line in the sand then?

7 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

At least you are consistent in your outlook, you'd be surprised how many people say that the Trump effigy was justified while still saying the gallows was wrong. 

Kathy Griffin deserved everything she got. That was immature and wrong in so many ways 

It's no secret I'm not a fan of Trump, but like anyone, I don't feel anyone should threaten, or mimic assassination. That's my line in the sand. It's a death threat, veiled or otherwise. That IMHO is where authority has the right to step in. 

Edited by psyche101
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11 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Where is the hate speech line in the sand then?

"Hate speech" is not a crime in the United States. Therefore when an action steps over the line from acceptable to criminal, that is the line in the sand! 

Keep in mind, though, that free speech in America is a lot broader than the speech we have available to us in Australia. As much as I'd like to adopt free speech laws into Australia, the fact is we don't have free speech and I'm pretty sure both the Trump effigy and the gallows would be illegal in Australia. To me that is a failing in our legal system that I wish we could change. Free speech should be free!  

 

11 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Kathy Griffin deserved everything she got. That was immature and wrong in so many ways 

It's no secret I'm not a fan of Trump, but like anyone, I don't feel anyone should threaten, or mimic assassination. That's my line in the sand. It's a death threat, veiled or otherwise. That IMHO is where authority has the right to step in. 

It may have been immature and wrong, but it wasn't illegal. You're talking to the wrong guy if you are expecting me to agree that she deserved to lose her job. Her lost job is a broader symptom of the cancel culture that is unfortunately prevalent on the left side of politics. 

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51 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

"Hate speech" is not a crime in the United States. Therefore when an action steps over the line from acceptable to criminal, that is the line in the sand! 

Seems a pretty fine line that.

Crime

The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, or threats to commit such crimes. It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out.

I do feel that effigies should be considered intent. Conspiring. But that's my opinion or interpretation I guess.

51 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Keep in mind, though, that free speech in America is a lot broader than the speech we have available to us in Australia. As much as I'd like to adopt free speech laws into Australia, the fact is we don't have free speech and I'm pretty sure both the Trump effigy and the gallows would be illegal in Australia. To me that is a failing in our legal system that I wish we could change. Free speech should be free!  

Well thank goodness you don't make laws here. I'd have to move to New Zealand. 

That's just a licence to breed hate and anger. I'm surprised at some of the things you post these days. Hate was not your thing once upon a time.

It's why Australia is better than America and always will be. Really you should consider moving there. You seem to like the controversy they have and I swear you seem to just lap up dissent, always wanting to champion the underdog. Honestly, it strikes me as a following thing rather than a thinking thing. Right wing all the way no matter what.

I could never agree with you here. Not as long as I hold morals and ethics in a higher light. What you see as our failing is why this country is the best place on the planet right now. We have a standard. That's something to be patriotic about. All Class. 

51 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

It may have been immature and wrong, but it wasn't illegal. You're talking to the wrong guy if you are expecting me to agree that she deserved to lose her job. Her lost job is a broader symptom of the cancel culture that is unfortunately prevalent on the left side of politics. 

That's not cancel culture, it's still called common decency amongst us plain speaking folks. 

Yep. Definitely the wrong guy. This is why I don't see your views as thinking views, but follower views. You seem to like division and hate to much for me to consider you to be a fair judge. The new you would not have got along with the old you either I'd wager.

Would you employ someone like that? I wouldn't. You go to work to do a job. Not express political views. I have kicked unions off site for attempting to spread political propaganda. My crew are all grown up and can think for themselves. The unions get no support from me in their political campaigns. Regardless of whom they support. They just get told to get the F of my site. Loudly too. Make an appointment by your own rules if you wish to visit. I'll refuse the calls, but go your hardest. 

That's why you aren't a boss too.

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1 hour ago, Paranoid Android said:

"Hate speech" is not a crime in the United States. Therefore when an action steps over the line from acceptable to criminal, that is the line in the sand! 

Keep in mind, though, that free speech in America is a lot broader than the speech we have available to us in Australia. As much as I'd like to adopt free speech laws into Australia, the fact is we don't have free speech and I'm pretty sure both the Trump effigy and the gallows would be illegal in Australia. To me that is a failing in our legal system that I wish we could change. Free speech should be free!  

 

It may have been immature and wrong, but it wasn't illegal. You're talking to the wrong guy if you are expecting me to agree that she deserved to lose her job. Her lost job is a broader symptom of the cancel culture that is unfortunately prevalent on the left side of politics. 

We do have free speech in Australia.

Show where the effigy is illegal.

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38 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

I do feel that effigies should be considered intent. Conspiring. But that's my opinion or interpretation I guess.

 

How do you feel about voodoo dolls? 

Banned too? Straight to jail? 

:D 

 

Voodoo_dolls.jpg

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1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Seems a pretty fine line that.

Crime

The "crime" in hate crime is often a violent crime, such as assault, murder, arson, vandalism, or threats to commit such crimes. It may also cover conspiring or asking another person to commit such crimes, even if the crime was never carried out.

I do feel that effigies should be considered intent. Conspiring. But that's my opinion or interpretation I guess.

Happy to agree to disagree on this :tu: 

 

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Well thank goodness you don't make laws here. I'd have to move to New Zealand. 

That's just a licence to breed hate and anger. I'm surprised at some of the things you post these days. Hate was not your thing once upon a time.

It's why Australia is better than America and always will be. Really you should consider moving there. You seem to like the controversy they have and I swear you seem to just lap up dissent, always wanting to champion the underdog. Honestly, it strikes me as a following thing rather than a thinking thing. Right wing all the way no matter what.

I could never agree with you here. Not as long as I hold morals and ethics in a higher light. What you see as our failing is why this country is the best place on the planet right now. We have a standard. That's something to be patriotic about. All Class. 

Australia is the best country in the world, I don't want to move away. Just because I can see the flaws in my own country doesn't mean I don't think we have the best system in the world. There's a lot that America does worse than us, and I'm glad I live here :yes: 

 

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

That's not cancel culture, it's still called common decency amongst us plain speaking folks. 

Yep. Definitely the wrong guy. This is why I don't see your views as thinking views, but follower views. You seem to like division and hate to much for me to consider you to be a fair judge. The new you would not have got along with the old you either I'd wager.

Would you employ someone like that? I wouldn't. You go to work to do a job. Not express political views. I have kicked unions off site for attempting to spread political propaganda. My crew are all grown up and can think for themselves. The unions get no support from me in their political campaigns. Regardless of whom they support. They just get told to get the F of my site. Loudly too. Make an appointment by your own rules if you wish to visit. I'll refuse the calls, but go your hardest. 

Here's the thing - outside of UM I really don't talk about politics (except with my partner, obviously we share some similar views - I'm talking about how I relate to the world around me in normal day-to-day life). None of my work colleagues know I'm a Trump supporter, because we don't talk about it. I don't bring it up in my classrooms. Which brings me neatly to:

 

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

That's why you aren't a boss too.

I've been sitting here working out how to respond to this. The best I can come up with is "WT actual F"?

I'm not the boss because 1- I don't want to be the boss (the higher up I go in my organisation the less teaching I do, and I love teaching), and 2- that's really it, I just don't want to be the boss! Too much work, too much responsibility, I'm happy and comfortable being a simple classroom teacher! No need to bring politics into it! 

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28 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

We do have free speech in Australia.

Show where the effigy is illegal.

The pandemic demonstrated to us pretty clearly that we don't have free speech in this country. We have a lot of freedoms, but "free speech" is not in our constitution. It is not written into any of our laws. But this isn't a "free speech in Australia" thread, so I won't say more about it. Suffice it to say I think we will be disagreeing on this one. 

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

The pandemic demonstrated to us pretty clearly that we don't have free speech in this country. We have a lot of freedoms, but "free speech" is not in our constitution. It is not written into any of our laws. But this isn't a "free speech in Australia" thread, so I won't say more about it. Suffice it to say I think we will be disagreeing on this one. 

And you couldn't be more wrong.

Federation didn't dissolve the Bill Of Rights or abrogate common law.  Furthermore, Australia is party to UN treaties that guarantee freedom of speech.  The treaties were implented by acts of parliament.

You would be wise to not say more about it.

Edited by Golden Duck
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9 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

And you couldn't be more wrong.

Federation didn't dissolve the Bill Of Rights or abrogate.  Furthermore, Australia is party to UN treaties that guarantee freedom of speech.  The treaties were implented by acts of parliament.

You would be wise to not say more about it.

I said we wouldn't agree.  Happy to leave it there :geek:

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2 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I said we wouldn't agree.  Happy to leave it there :geek:

Hey, it's not my place to deny you your choice of whether to agree with reality or not; but, don't try and intimidate me not to provide facts about UN Treaties and Acts of Parliament.

Other, readers may desire to choose a path that leads them out of a cloud of ignorance.

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10 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Hey, it's not my place to deny you your choice of whether to agree with reality or not; but, don't try and intimidate me not to provide facts about UN Treaties and Acts of Parliament.

Other, readers may desire to choose a path that leads them out of a cloud of ignorance.

Me? Intimidate YOU? I just shared what I believe,  you chose to use confrontational language like "you would be wise not to say more".  As it is,  the fact is the government removed our right to protest the lock down laws,  but the exact same government allowed BLM protests literally a week earlier under the same threat levels. 

Rights aren't rights if the government can take them away arbitrarily!

Ps- you coaxed me into saying more by complaining I'm the one trying to intimidate you when the quality of the language we are using demonstrates objectively that it is you trying to intimidate!

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