Jan 6 public hearings Live

[+Hammerclaw]

13 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Now, now.  I'm sure the officer feared for his life, so it's perfectly legal for him to shoot. (according to numerous previous court cases in similar matters.).

Murder is illegal killing after all...

Edit to add: Ashli wasn't the only person to die that day, btw.  These Are the People Who Died in Connection With the Capitol Riot - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Yes, but not directly because of it. Two died of cardiovascular disease, one of drug overdose. The only one who died that day because of the riot was the murdered protestor.

How Many Died as a Result of Capitol Riot? - FactCheck.org

[Gromdor]

18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Yes, but not directly because of it. Two died of cardiovascular disease, one of drug overdose. The only one who died that day because of the riot was the murdered protestor.

How Many Died as a Result of Capitol Riot? - FactCheck.org

I disagree.  Situations with sudden exertion (like rioting) will kill people with weak hearts.

People usually don't die in such numbers in a peaceful protest.

[+Hammerclaw]

On 6/13/2022 at 12:18 AM, Gromdor said:

I disagree.  Situations with sudden exertion (like rioting) will kill people with weak hearts.

People usually don't die in such numbers in a peaceful protest.

I had a several heart attacks 6 years ago that landed me in hospital, doing nothing more strenuous than walking around the house or fetching the mail. So ex-c-u-u-u-s-e me, Dr House.

[Tiggs]

John Eastman, the conservative law professor who gained former President Donald Trump's favor with his unorthodox proposal that a vice president could overturn an election, sought a presidential pardon in the aftermath of the Capitol riot.

According to emails obtained by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection Eastman told Rudy Giuliani he wanted a preemptive pardon for his role in attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

“I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works," Eastman wrote.

Source: NBC (Chicago)

[spartan max2]

37 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

John Eastman, the conservative law professor who gained former President Donald Trump's favor with his unorthodox proposal that a vice president could overturn an election, sought a presidential pardon in the aftermath of the Capitol riot.

According to emails obtained by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection Eastman told Rudy Giuliani he wanted a preemptive pardon for his role in attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

“I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works," Eastman wrote.

Source: NBC (Chicago)

Not suspicious behavior what so ever 

[Doug1066]

On 6/12/2022 at 6:01 PM, DieChecker said:

Thats what they said of the Mueller Report, and the Steele Dossier before that. 

I'd agree Trump tried to conduct a coup if there was any way that preventing the Senate recording would do so. At BEST it would only delay the count. Unless Trump destroyed every record of the counts, which is impossible given their electronic nature. Its not like the results were in a trunk and taking that trunk makes him president.

Once the Congress fled the Capitol, Trump's mob could keep control of it and prevent a certification, simply stopping the transition of power in its tracks while Trump's friends and allies consolidated his hold on power.  We came very close to losing the whole shooting match.

Doug

[+DieChecker]

4 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Once the Congress fled the Capitol, Trump's mob could keep control of it and prevent a certification, simply stopping the transition of power in its tracks while Trump's friends and allies consolidated his hold on power.  We came very close to losing the whole shooting match.

Doug

I would agree that's a possibility, but aside from SOME of the rioters, Eastman, Guiana, and Trump himself... There was no one interested in supporting such.

No one in the Military, no one in the DOJ, almost no one in the White House, none of Trumps family, no one in the conservative media....

Who was going to consolidate anything? The rioters all left after, what, an hour and a half. 

It was a feeble effort that only got the rioters going out of their fanatical ignorance and believing Trumps online posts. The rioters conducted some violence, but didn't TRY to kill anyone. Yet were to believe they would have lynched Pence... Ok. Sure...

Trumps a horrible person, but he is not the 3D Chess Super Genius that almost took over the government. It wasnt even close.

Edited June 17, 2022 by DieChecker

[Autochthon1990]

49 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I would agree that's a possibility, but aside from SOME of the rioters, Eastman, Guiana, and Trump himself... There was no one interested in supporting such.

No one in the Military, no one in the DOJ, almost no one in the White House, none of Trumps family, no one in the conservative media....

Who was going to consolidate anything? The rioters all left after, what, an hour and a half. 

It was a feeble effort that only got the rioters going out of their fanatical ignorance and believing Trumps online posts. The rioters conducted some violence, but didn't TRY to kill anyone. Yet were to believe they would have lynched Pence... Ok. Sure...

Trumps a horrible person, but he is not the 3D Chess Super Genius that almost took over the government. It wasnt even close.

He's not a genius, he's a demagogue who couldn't care less about the rules, that's why he almost pulled it off. He as a black swan event because until now, nobody had the combination of giant balls and tiny brains to actually think this would work. The fact that it 1. Almost did, and 2. the GOP is fine with this, is horrifying. And frankly the fact that you're being an apologist for it is shameful, you should know better. 

[Tiggs]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

The rioters conducted some violence, but didn't TRY to kill anyone. Yet were to believe they would have lynched Pence... Ok. Sure...

W-1 stated that after the events at the Capitol as described above, he or she spoke to an individual he or she knows as “Spaz,” along with other individuals. W-1 stated that during that conversation, “Spaz” bragged about breaking the windows to the Capitol and entering the building. In a subsequent interview W-1 clarified that “Spaz” said that he used a Capitol Police shield to break the window. W-1 said that “Spaz” can be seen on the cover of many newspapers and recognizes him from those photographs. W-1 stated that other members of the group talked about things they had done during the day, and they said that anyone they got their hands on they would have killed, including Nancy Pelosi. W-1 further stated that members of this group, which included “Spaz,” said that they would have killed [Vice President] Mike Pence if given the chance.

Source: Justice.Gov (page 6 of the affidavit against Dominic Pezzola)

[+DieChecker]

1 hour ago, Tiggs said:

W-1 stated that after the events at the Capitol as described above, he or she spoke to an individual he or she knows as “Spaz,” along with other individuals. W-1 stated that during that conversation, “Spaz” bragged about breaking the windows to the Capitol and entering the building. In a subsequent interview W-1 clarified that “Spaz” said that he used a Capitol Police shield to break the window. W-1 said that “Spaz” can be seen on the cover of many newspapers and recognizes him from those photographs. W-1 stated that other members of the group talked about things they had done during the day, and they said that anyone they got their hands on they would have killed, including Nancy Pelosi. W-1 further stated that members of this group, which included “Spaz,” said that they would have killed [Vice President] Mike Pence if given the chance.

Source: Justice.Gov (page 6 of the affidavit against Dominic Pezzola)

So we have at least one nutbar out of... how many rioters? So this was a group of rioters who in their After Action meeting were "big man" bragging at each other? 

Did the MAGA Shaman guy say he wanted to kill people? What sbout the guy who carried off the podium? Wanted to kill people? I think we're looking at a small lunatic fringe, even among the body of rioters.

[+DieChecker]

2 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

He's not a genius, he's a demagogue who couldn't care less about the rules, that's why he almost pulled it off. He as a black swan event because until now, nobody had the combination of giant balls and tiny brains to actually think this would work. The fact that it 1. Almost did, and 2. the GOP is fine with this, is horrifying. And frankly the fact that you're being an apologist for it is shameful, you should know better. 

I'd ask how exactly he almost pulled it off? How close was he? 

Because people keep saying "almost", but I think they are not understanding "almost" means "very close". As in if you get shot in a lung, you probably almost died. If you got shot in the finger, you didn't almost die. Shot in the leg, affects your mobility, but again, probably, not almost killed.

So how did he almost pull it off? And not just "bite off a finger".

We know as fact that the DOJ, the military, his family, Pence and probably 95% of the WH staff, most all State election officials who were contacted... All said "Thats illegal and wrong.". 

It is ridiculous that I have to defend anything. This is like a kid coughs on another kid on the bus, and he's sent to Juvie for six months.

The riot was horrible. Trump is horrible. But there was, ALWAYS, zero chance this would work.

Edited June 17, 2022 by DieChecker

[Autochthon1990]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

It is ridiculous that I have to defend anything. This is like a kid coughs on another kid on the bus, and he's sent to Juvie for six months.

Sorry lad, but you run with fascists, and you're gonna have to answer for the baggage that comes with it. Or, yknow, quit being a republican. That's the annoying part, ya'll don't /have/ to defend the indefensible. You don't /have/ to ride with Trump, you don't /have/ to be okay with these christian fascists. You can leave any time you would like, but...well that would mean you where wrong, that would mean you got conned, that would mean you /made a mistake/ and made it in a public space. And most folk's pride won't let them do that. 

 

But I think you'd be happier if you just ditched all this baggage. Admit that you voted for the wrong guy in 2016 and 2020, admit you shouldn't have stuck with him all this time, admit you fell for propaganda, and strive to never let it happen again. But frankly, the more I see from you conservatives, the more I'm reminded of my mother. She'll stick with an alcoholic deadbeat who leeches money and causes nothing but trouble because she's so lost in the sunk cost fallacy she can't imagine another way of living. She doesn't have to stay with dad, and you don't have to stay with trump. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

2 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Admit that you voted for the wrong guy in 2016 and 2020, admit you shouldn't have stuck with him all this time, admit you fell for propaganda, and strive to never let it happen again. But frankly, the more I see from you conservatives, the more I'm reminded of my mother. She'll stick with an alcoholic deadbeat who leeches money and causes nothing but trouble because she's so lost in the sunk cost fallacy she can't imagine another way of living. She doesn't have to stay with dad, and you don't have to stay with trump. 

I'm not an American, so I obviously can't vote in your election. But if I did, in 2008 and 2012, I would have voted for Obama. In 2016, I would have voted for Hillary. In 2020 I would have voted for Trump. There are a lot of folks who have followed a #WalkAway campaign which began as a movement away from the left, I became a part of that (without the # part, I don't really use much social media) as I started to look into politics. I moved away from the left and no longer consider myself a "liberal" (in the American sense, at least - "LIberals" in Australia have a different meaning, though I didn't vote for them in the last election either; like many Aussies I voted for an Independent). 

You should see some of my Facebook posts from 2016, I had a memory pop up a couple of months ago in which I had shared a video about how Donald Trump's racism was tearing America apart. Of course, the video was left wing propaganda, none of it was true, it included out of context quotes in pretty much every situation. But at the time I was too ignorant of politics to realise it. It took me actually looking into politics to find out what the parties actually believed for me to change. 

Anyway, I hope that helps in some small way understand that there's more out there than the caricature of conservatives you seem to think exists. 

[+Desertrat56]

12 hours ago, Tiggs said:

John Eastman, the conservative law professor who gained former President Donald Trump's favor with his unorthodox proposal that a vice president could overturn an election, sought a presidential pardon in the aftermath of the Capitol riot.

According to emails obtained by the House committee investigating the Jan. 6, 2021, insurrection Eastman told Rudy Giuliani he wanted a preemptive pardon for his role in attempting to overturn the results of the 2020 election.

“I’ve decided that I should be on the pardon list, if that is still in the works," Eastman wrote.

Source: NBC (Chicago)

In otherwords admitting guilt.  

[+Desertrat56]

4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

So we have at least one nutbar out of... how many rioters? So this was a group of rioters who in their After Action meeting were "big man" bragging at each other? 

Did the MAGA Shaman guy say he wanted to kill people? What sbout the guy who carried off the podium? Wanted to kill people? I think we're looking at a small lunatic fringe, even among the body of rioters.

What makes you think they weren't all (ALL) nutbars to riot at that time and place  in the first place?

[spartan max2]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

What makes you think they weren't all (ALL) nutbars to riot at that time and place  in the first place?

This is a good point.

Like on UM we have a lot of fairly far political right people, and some who even believe the election was fraud. Yet none of them (atleast that has been shared) went to the Jan 6 protest.

So how intense are the people who actually felt the need to go I wonder. 

[+DieChecker]

30 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

What makes you think they weren't all (ALL) nutbars to riot at that time and place  in the first place?

That's a good point. I suppose there's levels of nutbar. Theres the average ones, and then there's the ones that believe anything and everything. The latter are more dangerous. 

But yes, everyone that went to the Capital complex after the Trump speech were not people in their right (no pun intended) mind. All the violent ones need to be punished.

[+DieChecker]

3 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Sorry lad, but you run with fascists, and you're gonna have to answer for the baggage that comes with it. Or, yknow, quit being a republican.

So, I recognize you're in like that 0.1% of people who are way out there on the far edges of liberal ideology, so I'm not going to take that personal. Many young liberals only know to insult, and not how to talk nice, but get the point across. 

Quote

That's the annoying part, ya'll don't /have/ to defend the indefensible. You don't /have/ to ride with Trump, you don't /have/ to be okay with these christian fascists. You can leave any time you would like, but...well that would mean you where wrong, that would mean you got conned, that would mean you /made a mistake/ and made it in a public space. And most folk's pride won't let them do that. 

Yeah, thats all true. But you're forgetting a few facts. Such as the person who ran in 2016 was even worse, from my POV. And though I considered voting for Biden in 2020, I just couldn't do it because he wasn't the man id seen as a Senator and VP. He was different... Maybe the term could be "Sold Out", and was not running as a Centrist, but as one of the far left Woke. And I could vote for that kind of stupid. Rights is one thing, but Woke ideology is oversold.

Quote

But I think you'd be happier if you just ditched all this baggage. Admit that you voted for the wrong guy in 2016 and 2020, admit you shouldn't have stuck with him all this time, admit you fell for propaganda, and strive to never let it happen again.

Well, that ain't going to happen...

Quote

But frankly, the more I see from you conservatives, the more I'm reminded of my mother. She'll stick with an alcoholic deadbeat who leeches money and causes nothing but trouble because she's so lost in the sunk cost fallacy she can't imagine another way of living. She doesn't have to stay with dad, and you don't have to stay with trump.

True. And I hate to repeat myself, but I've said over and over, he should be punished... that he's a horrible person... that he caused the riot... that I hope he doesn't run again...

I also said, id vote Trump again, in a second, if the Democrats run a namby pamby snowflake. Or run a criminal like HRC. 

Trump as a person was a hot mess, but the country ran like a Swiss timepiece under his watch, unlike how things are running under Biden.

I have no reason not to believe it would be that way again under his, (cough cough...) leadership. 

[Saru]

Keep it civil please folks - don't make things personal.

@Autochthon1990 this also extends to implying that other members are "fascists" or "extremists" - enough of that please.

[Myles]

32 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

So, I recognize you're in like that 0.1% of people who are way out there on the far edges of liberal ideology, so I'm not going to take that personal. Many young liberals only know to insult, and not how to talk nice, but get the point across. 

Yeah, thats all true. But you're forgetting a few facts. Such as the person who ran in 2016 was even worse, from my POV. And though I considered voting for Biden in 2020, I just couldn't do it because he wasn't the man id seen as a Senator and VP. He was different... Maybe the term could be "Sold Out", and was not running as a Centrist, but as one of the far left Woke. And I could vote for that kind of stupid. Rights is one thing, but Woke ideology is oversold.

Well, that ain't going to happen...

True. And I hate to repeat myself, but I've said over and over, he should be punished... that he's a horrible person... that he caused the riot... that I hope he doesn't run again...

I also said, id vote Trump again, in a second, if the Democrats run a namby pamby snowflake. Or run a criminal like HRC. 

Trump as a person was a hot mess, but the country ran like a Swiss timepiece under his watch, unlike how things are running under Biden.

I have no reason not to believe it would be that way again under his, (cough cough...) leadership. 

Excellent points. 

I will continue to vote for the person I think is best at the time.   

Edited June 17, 2022 by Myles

[+DieChecker]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

So we have at least one nutbar out of... how many rioters? So this was a group of rioters who in their After Action meeting were "big man" bragging at each other? 

Did the MAGA Shaman guy say he wanted to kill people? What sbout the guy who carried off the podium? Wanted to kill people? I think we're looking at a small lunatic fringe, even among the body of rioters.

So Trump said the crowd at his WH speech was HUGE. Biggest crowd ever. But many people who would know said somewhere around 10,000 people... At his speech on Jan 6.

According to the Capital police and other observers, about 2,000 of those people ended up at the Capital Complex. And of those about 800 have been identified and charged. Most are charged with trespassing and/or other misdemeanors. I'm not sure how many were charged with felonies... maybe a couple hundred.

So those that actually got violent were about 1%, or 2%, of the lunatics that showed up for the speech. Which were like 0.0001% of the 75 million that voted for him. Yet.... All Trump voters are now considered violent insurrectionists. Yeah, that adds up. 

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

So Trump said the crowd at his WH speech was HUGE. Biggest crowd ever. But many people who would know said somewhere around 10,000 people... At his speech on Jan 6.

According to the Capital police and other observers, about 2,000 of those people ended up at the Capital Complex. And of those about 800 have been identified and charged. Most are charged with trespassing and/or other misdemeanors. I'm not sure how many were charged with felonies... maybe a couple hundred.

So those that actually got violent were about 1%, or 2%, of the lunatics that showed up for the speech. Which were like 0.0001% of the 75 million that voted for him. Yet.... All Trump voters are now considered violent insurrectionists. Yeah, that adds up. 

A lot of people who voted for him the first time did not vote for him the second time, and some of those have quit the republican party.

[Myles]

25 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

A lot of people who voted for him the first time did not vote for him the second time, and some of those have quit the republican party.

While true, Trump got more votes in 2020 than he did in 2016.   

I'm not opposed to voting for a Democrat but not with how corrupt their priorities are at this time.  

[Tatetopa]

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

I'm not opposed to voting for a Democrat but not with how corrupt their priorities are at this time.  

What would be their corrupt priorities as opposed to republicans priorities?

[ExpandMyMind]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

All Trump voters are now considered violent insurrectionists

Nah, most are quite clearly just enablers. Trying to tell me Trump supporters would have marched against Trump if he had succeeded? Not a chance.

You would have went along with it, or at least the vast majority of Republican voters would have, because it suits you to do so.