Civil Discourse

[+Link of Hyrule]

On 6/19/2022 at 9:07 AM, Doug1066 said:

This is PA's comment from the faschism thread.  I'd like to hear some further comments along this line, but explained a little better.  PA, would you like to give it a try?

"Confirming what conservatives have been saying for years - the difference between the political parties is that conservatives believe progressives are wrong, while progressives believe conservatives are evil. Before I came back to UM, I genuinely thought that was just a saying, but the posts of lefties on this forum has led me to conclude that this is genuinely what a significant portion of "the tolerant left" actually believes! It's genuinely scary to realise that.

Leftism is a hate-filled ideology covered in niceties. If there is a war in America it's going to be because the left can't learn to live with differences of opinion, not because there is some rise of Nazism."

 

I reject PA's idea that progressives are hate-filled.  But I can understand why that idea might have come about. For 30 years Republicans have been saying they have a healthcare plan, but they haven't shown us one.  That people don't get adequate health care is a significant cause of death in this country.  The only Republican actions on health care have been 63 failed votes to repeal Obamacare.  That looks malicious from out here in the bushes.  It appears that conservative Congressmen are selling out their constituents for "campaign contributions (aka bribes)" from the insurance companies.  That breeds anger and when that anger is expressed, it sounds hateful.

The same could be said about the lack of progress on gun reform.

The same was said about lack of progress on infrastructure until Biden managed to get a bill passed.  But further progress seems to be stalled against the same wall.

So it is easy to mistake anger for hate.  And anger can easily turn to hate if needed reforms continue to be stone-walled.  So there may be some truth to PA's statement about lefties being hateful.

But the simple explanation is that what sounds hateful to a conservative may not sound that way at all to a liberal and vice versa.  Both sides need to be more careful in what we say.

For a list of how much Congressmen, governors, etc. cost, here's a list:  https://www.followthemoney.org/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-KmEi4y4-AIViBitBh2jjQZ0EAAYASAAEgJN1vD_BwE

We have the best government money can buy.  Particularly in Oklahoma where we routinely have two or three corruption prosecutions with each session of the mostly-Republican legislature.  And as I write this, our beloved governor has been caught giving a sweetheart deal to his friends in the restaurant business.  Specifically, Swadleigh's Foggy Bottom Restaurants.  How this turns out remains to be seen.

Yes.  I'm angry.

Doug

 

You have to understand the context in which I wrote that. I was writing in direct response to you calling me a "Nazi apologist" (I suppose, if you really want to argue semantics you accused me of "sounding" like a Nazi apologist, but that's hairsplitting of the finest variety; I don't see a functional difference between sounding like a Nazi apologist, being a Nazi apologist, or being an actual Nazi - they are all scum, if you want my personal opinion). When I brought that up, instead of writing "yeah, I guess I was being overly hyperbolic" (which is fair enough, hyperbole is somewhat expected on forums like this; I know I'm guilty on occasion) you double downed on your claims and started writing about how modern America is looking more and more like 1930's Germany. This is largely because of your impression of conservatives, your reply concluded with: "the Left needs to think about arming itself for its own defense" (immediately after suggesting right wingers might try a "Night of the Long Knives" sort of thing) so I don't see how this is anything but a treatise on conservatism and conservatives.  

Within that context I stand by what I wrote - conservatives think progressives are wrong, progressives think conservatives are evil.  

It doesn't mean ALL progressives think like this, or all progressives see us as evil. But a statistically significant portion of the leftist population does indeed believe that. You can justify it however you like (it's common to say "well you support xyz, so you must be either stupid or evil"... but xyz is almost always a straw man that doesn't accurately represent what conservatives believe) but until leftists stop painting 50% of the population as hateful, ignorant bigots, it's going to be a fair maxim to say "conservatives see progressives as wrong, progressives see conservatives as evil".

I've even seen gay conservatives on social media declare that they had more grief coming out as conservative to their progressive friends than they did coming out as gay to their conservative friends. Conservatives mostly just shrugged and said "good on ya" to being gay, but many progressives disowned them for being conservative. Though it is only anecdotal, this mirrors my experiences with progressives and conservatives.

Using a very recent example, I have been called transphobic because I think biological men and women should compete separately in sport, but no conservative has tried to slap me down for using trans pronouns of choice or stating that I support their right to medically transition (as long as they are adults, children is a different matter - I support a child's right to free expression and will still respect their pronouns, but I don't think they should do anything medically until they are adults)! Heck, your choice to call me a Nazi apologist for having an opinion about January 6 that is different to yours equally makes my point. 

This somewhat trickles down to what zep73 said about thread participation:

 

On 6/19/2022 at 12:23 PM, zep73 said:

What I am noticing is the total absence of conservative participants in this thread. How could that be?

Do they feel objectified? Like the subjects of a scientific study? Do they consider this a liberal discussion about them, and they want no part in it?

Either way, the thread is pointless without them.

I can't speak for others, but I have not been involved in this thread because I simply don't feel comfortable sharing my views with a thread starter who has such a horrible opinion of people such as myself. I didn't see how I could receive a fair hearing for my views so would rather just avoid the conversation altogether. 

The only reason I'm contributing to this thread here and now is that I saw you quoted my post and figured I should reply (I hadn't even clicked on the thread since the first day you posted it). 

[Autochthon1990]

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

That's not the point. Point is saying something another person doesn't like and having them overreact, and it be OK because identity politics. 

We can tell Mr WhiteMan his suit looks like ****e, but if you tell Mr BlackMan, some will call you a racist.

Are we only allowed to be mean to ******, and forced to be nice to minorities and the non-cis?

You're generally not supposed to be an ******* to anybody, but it's only racist to mock him for something that's an innate quality or has something to do with his culture or ethnic background. 

[Autochthon1990]

1 hour ago, Paranoid Android said:

(it's common to say "well you support xyz, so you must be either stupid or evil"... but xyz is almost always a straw man that doesn't accurately represent what conservatives believe)

...I mean, yeah. At this point those are your only two excuses for being a Republican in the United States. You're either ignorant of the consequences of your actions and do not entirely understand the ramifications of what you're voting for, which is unfortunate and kind of sad, but isn't a moral failing...or you are not ignorant and are actively doing so because you wish harm to minorities, the poor, and... frankly too many others to list in one sitting. It's one or the other, you had the excuse of 'well we'll see how this works out' in 2016, but that just doesn't fly anymore. You can't keep your head in the sand, either you're too dumb to understand the problem, or you understand it and don't think it's a problem has long as the right people get hurt. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

20 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

...I mean, yeah. At this point those are your only two excuses for being a Republican in the United States. You're either ignorant of the consequences of your actions and do not entirely understand the ramifications of what you're voting for, which is unfortunate and kind of sad, but isn't a moral failing...or you are not ignorant and are actively doing so because you wish harm to minorities, the poor, and... frankly too many others to list in one sitting. It's one or the other, you had the excuse of 'well we'll see how this works out' in 2016, but that just doesn't fly anymore. You can't keep your head in the sand, either you're too dumb to understand the problem, or you understand it and don't think it's a problem has long as the right people get hurt. 

We already know you believe that. And you are very very wrong, those aren't the only two options! You just THINK they are and have been misled into thinking there is no other alternative.  

 

 

[Autochthon1990]

Just now, Paranoid Android said:

We already know you believe that. And you are very very wrong, those aren't the only two options! You just THINK they are and have been misled into thinking there is no other alternative.  

 

 

I'll mark you down for the first one, then. 

[+Link of Hyrule]

1 minute ago, Autochthon1990 said:

I'll mark you down for the first one, then. 

You can use whatever metrics you like, they mean diddlysquat to me! Diversity of thought should be celebrated! Conservatives seem to understand that far more than progressives these days, which is one of the reasons I ended up leaving the left, I didn't like their intolerance. 

[Autochthon1990]

42 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

You can use whatever metrics you like, they mean diddlysquat to me! Diversity of thought should be celebrated! Conservatives seem to understand that far more than progressives these days, which is one of the reasons I ended up leaving the left, I didn't like their intolerance. 

Sure, because as we all know, backing a fascist coup and the junta behind it is totally worth being able to be a jerk to gay people. 

[zep73]

@Autochthon1990

Grow up! True liberalism is not to condemn people with different opinions, but to fight for the right to have them. They are neither evil or ignorant, just sick of people like you.

[Autochthon1990]

Just now, zep73 said:

@Autochthon1990

Grow up! True liberalism is not to condemn people with different opinions, but to fight for the right to have them. They are neither evil or ignorant, just sick of people like you.

...They just reduced women to broodmare status in every republican state. Shut the **** up. 

[zep73]

2 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

...They just reduced women to broodmare status in every republican state. Shut the **** up. 

They are just doing what you are doing. Trying to force their opinion upon others.

[Autochthon1990]

2 minutes ago, zep73 said:

They are just doing what you are doing. Trying to force their opinion upon others.

Dude there's a difference between 'social consequences for yelling the N-Word at people' and 'you have to squeeze a child the size of a watermelon out of your genitals, and hope you don't go broke or die from it'

[Michelle]

The woke have already canceled women by calling them menstruating people. There are no more women according to them.

[zep73]

1 minute ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Dude there's a difference between 'social consequences for yelling the N-Word at people' and 'you have to squeeze a child the size of a watermelon out of your genitals, and hope you don't go broke or die from it'

But the similarity is that, by trying to force people, you only make things worse.

[Autochthon1990]

1 minute ago, zep73 said:

But the similarity is that, by trying to force people, you only make things worse.

No, there's no similarity here. You can't compare "I'm going to force you to give birth" to "We're gonna ban you from twitter for being a toxic *******"

Just...shut up, you're not helping anything, you're just trying to use a national tragedy to try to score points on people you think are too woke for your taste, and I am in /no ****ing mood for it right now/. 

[zep73]

1 minute ago, Autochthon1990 said:

No, there's no similarity here. You can't compare "I'm going to force you to give birth" to "We're gonna ban you from twitter for being a toxic *******"

Just...shut up, you're not helping anything, you're just trying to use a national tragedy to try to score points on people you think are too woke for your taste, and I am in /no ****ing mood for it right now/. 

Shut up yourself. You're the one being toxic.

[Autochthon1990]

10 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Shut up yourself. You're the one being toxic.

Alright, I warned you, if you're going to be a monster, then for the first time on this site, you're going on the block list.

 

[zep73]

7 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Alright, I warned you, if you're going to be a monster, then for the first time on this site, you're going on the block list.

yay

[Michelle]

5 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Sure, because as we all know, backing a fascist coup and the junta behind it is totally worth being able to be a jerk to gay people.

What names do you have for minority, including LGBTQ, Republicans?

[Autochthon1990]

4 minutes ago, Michelle said:

What names do you have for minority, including LGBTQ, Republicans?

I'm sure all three of them have preferred pronouns. 

[Doug1066]

9 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

You have to understand the context in which I wrote that. I was writing in direct response to you calling me a "Nazi apologist" (I suppose, if you really want to argue semantics you accused me of "sounding" like a Nazi apologist, but that's hairsplitting of the finest variety; I don't see a functional difference between sounding like a Nazi apologist, being a Nazi apologist, or being an actual Nazi - they are all scum, if you want my personal opinion). When I brought that up, instead of writing "yeah, I guess I was being overly hyperbolic" (which is fair enough, hyperbole is somewhat expected on forums like this; I know I'm guilty on occasion) you double downed on your claims and started writing about how modern America is looking more and more like 1930's Germany. This is largely because of your impression of conservatives, your reply concluded with: "the Left needs to think about arming itself for its own defense" (immediately after suggesting right wingers might try a "Night of the Long Knives" sort of thing) so I don't see how this is anything but a treatise on conservatism and conservatives.  

Within that context I stand by what I wrote - conservatives think progressives are wrong, progressives think conservatives are evil.  

It doesn't mean ALL progressives think like this, or all progressives see us as evil. But a statistically significant portion of the leftist population does indeed believe that. You can justify it however you like (it's common to say "well you support xyz, so you must be either stupid or evil"... but xyz is almost always a straw man that doesn't accurately represent what conservatives believe) but until leftists stop painting 50% of the population as hateful, ignorant bigots, it's going to be a fair maxim to say "conservatives see progressives as wrong, progressives see conservatives as evil".

I've even seen gay conservatives on social media declare that they had more grief coming out as conservative to their progressive friends than they did coming out as gay to their conservative friends. Conservatives mostly just shrugged and said "good on ya" to being gay, but many progressives disowned them for being conservative. Though it is only anecdotal, this mirrors my experiences with progressives and conservatives.

Using a very recent example, I have been called transphobic because I think biological men and women should compete separately in sport, but no conservative has tried to slap me down for using trans pronouns of choice or stating that I support their right to medically transition (as long as they are adults, children is a different matter - I support a child's right to free expression and will still respect their pronouns, but I don't think they should do anything medically until they are adults)! Heck, your choice to call me a Nazi apologist for having an opinion about January 6 that is different to yours equally makes my point. 

This somewhat trickles down to what zep73 said about thread participation:

 

I can't speak for others, but I have not been involved in this thread because I simply don't feel comfortable sharing my views with a thread starter who has such a horrible opinion of people such as myself. I didn't see how I could receive a fair hearing for my views so would rather just avoid the conversation altogether. 

The only reason I'm contributing to this thread here and now is that I saw you quoted my post and figured I should reply (I hadn't even clicked on the thread since the first day you posted it). 

I apologize for coming down so hard on you.  I didn't realize your sensitivity to the issue.

I do wish conservatives would take the time to explain why they think liberals are wrong on issues.  Maybe they think forgiving school loans is "too expensive (Mitt Romney)," or they think that we shouldn't support Ukraine.  I'd like to know their reasoning.  What's important is the policy/issue, not whether someone is on the left or right side of other issues.

Doug

[Myles]

9 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

 

I've even seen gay conservatives on social media declare that they had more grief coming out as conservative to their progressive friends than they did coming out as gay to their conservative friends. Conservatives mostly just shrugged and said "good on ya" to being gay, but many progressives disowned them for being conservative. Though it is only anecdotal, this mirrors my experiences with progressives and conservatives.

Using a very recent example, I have been called transphobic because I think biological men and women should compete separately in sport, but no conservative has tried to slap me down for using trans pronouns of choice or stating that I support their right to medically transition (as long as they are adults, children is a different matter - I support a child's right to free expression and will still respect their pronouns, but I don't think they should do anything medically until they are adults)! 

 

I have witnessed the same from the people I know and some on this forum.   

[Myles]

8 hours ago, Autochthon1990 said:

...I mean, yeah. At this point those are your only two excuses for being a Democrat in the United States. You're either ignorant of the consequences of your actions and do not entirely understand the ramifications of what you're voting for, which is unfortunate and kind of sad, but isn't a moral failing...or you are not ignorant and are actively doing so because you wish harm to minorities, the poor, and... frankly too many others to list in one sitting. It's one or the other, you had the excuse of 'well we'll see how this works out' in 2016, but that just doesn't fly anymore. You can't keep your head in the sand, either you're too dumb to understand the problem, or you understand it and don't think it's a problem has long as the right people get hurt. 

Sounds like you are defining the left.   Good job!

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Autochthon1990 said:

Alright, I warned you, if you're going to be a monster, then for the first time on this site, you're going on the block list.

 

I unblocked everyone on my list and am still getting "Unread replies" from UM, sometimes on my own posts.  Is the UM computer getting senile?

Doug

[Michelle]

41 minutes ago, Autochthon1990 said:

I'm sure all three of them have preferred pronouns. 

The woke, with their white privilege, have already informed minorities what they should be referred by. The sane ones, who are Republicans, have rebelled against those so you'll have to go with the standards like "Uncle Tom" when you spout your vitriol.

[Doug1066]

7 minutes ago, Myles said:

Sounds like you are defining the left.   Good job!

Autochthon used the word "Republican" in his original post, which you have replaced with "Democrat."  That is a misquote.  Let's stick to criticizing what people actually say.

Doug