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Proof of God (Gnosticism = Knowledge is Power)


InvestigativeThinker
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From my part, this is how and why I come to know God exists:

1. How: I see the sun in the morning and the moon at night, my body is working, that is evidence of God existing - the creator and operator of everything.

2. Why: I am happy to know that God is in charge, so I don't have to wonder whether the sun will rise today or not, and the moon will appper tonight or not, I will go about with my life of working for a living, to enable myself and my wife and our kids to have a good life.

 

So, if I may, what about you, colleagues here in UM, who don't accept God exists, what is your explanation how and why you don't accept Gold exists?

Please just repeat if you have already explained in earlier posts, because it is convenient to readers including myself to not have to look up your earlier posts.

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6 minutes ago, oslove said:

From my part, this is how and why I come to know God exists:

1. How: I see the sun in the morning and the moon at night, my body is working, that is evidence of God existing - the creator and operator of everything.

2. Why: I am happy to know that God is in charge, so I don't have to wonder whether the sun will rise today or not, and the moon will appper tonight or not, I will go about with my life of working for a living, to enable myself and my wife and our kids to have a good life.

 

So, if I may, what about you, colleagues here in UM, who don't accept God exists, what is your explanation how and why you don't accept Gold exists?

Please just repeat if you have already explained in earlier posts, because it is convenient to readers including myself to not have to look up your earlier posts.

The criteria you listed isn't what god accepts as faith in him, if I've read the bible correctly. He exists therefore you're as a believer supposed to have faith in him. He could knock the moon out of the sky if he chose. He definitely takes wives and kids away in a flash, and if he did you'd still be required to believe in him and have faith. 

So using them as examples may work for you but it may not be for god. Or for anyone else for that matter. Gods relationships with humans in the bible ranges from near complete destruction, (but he loves you), to asking for the sacrifice of your child and at the last second saying no that's ok, (but he loves you), to smoting entire towns, plagues, and eventually utter destruction, near total annihilation and then maybe paradise on a new earth, but he loves you. That is for some people a bridge too far, and under the auspices of how god works, probably exactly how he wants it. Do you think god intends for everyone to believe, and make it through the gambit of trials and deaths to get to heaven? The biblical evidence doesn't seem to back that up. So why must his followers presume to know and demand obedience, belief and faith for a god that doesn't show he is in the business of saving everyone? Did he hire you specifically to sell him to people?

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16 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

The criteria you listed isn't what god accepts as faith in him, if I've read the bible correctly. He exists therefore you're as a believer supposed to have faith in him. He could knock the moon out of the sky if he chose. He definitely takes wives and kids away in a flash, and if he did you'd still be required to believe in him and have faith. 

So using them as examples may work for you but it may not be for god. Or for anyone else for that matter. Gods relationships with humans in the bible ranges from near complete destruction, (but he loves you), to asking for the sacrifice of your child and at the last second saying no that's ok, (but he loves you), to smoting entire towns, plagues, and eventually utter destruction, near total annihilation and then maybe paradise on a new earth, but he loves you. That is for some people a bridge too far, and under the auspices of how god works, probably exactly how he wants it. Do you think god intends for everyone to believe, and make it through the gambit of trials and deaths to get to heaven? The biblical evidence doesn't seem to back that up. So why must his followers presume to know and demand obedience, belief and faith for a god that doesn't show he is in the business of saving everyone? Did he hire you specifically to sell him to people?

 

If I may, suppose you just reduce the above text into an abstract of very few words, containing the gist of your thoughts in re God exists or not, then we can examine together your contention and my contention on God exists or not, is that all right with you?

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6 minutes ago, oslove said:

 

If I may, suppose you just reduce the above text into an abstract of very few words, containing the gist of your thoughts in re God exists or not, then we can examine together your contention and my contention on God exists or not, is that all right with you?

My belief either way is personal and really none of your business. 

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4 minutes ago, darkmoonlady said:

My belief either way is personal and really none of your business. 

 

So, why then did you write so much words about something personal to you only?

 

From Darkmoonlady:

The criteria you listed isn't what god accepts as faith in him, if I've read the bible correctly. He exists therefore you're as a believer supposed to have faith in him. He could knock the moon out of the sky if he chose. He definitely takes wives and kids away in a flash, and if he did you'd still be required to believe in him and have faith. 

So using them as examples may work for you but it may not be for god. Or for anyone else for that matter. Gods relationships with humans in the bible ranges from near complete destruction, (but he loves you), to asking for the sacrifice of your child and at the last second saying no that's ok, (but he loves you), to smoting entire towns, plagues, and eventually utter destruction, near total annihilation and then maybe paradise on a new earth, but he loves you. That is for some people a bridge too far, and under the auspices of how god works, probably exactly how he wants it. Do you think god intends for everyone to believe, and make it through the gambit of trials and deaths to get to heaven? The biblical evidence doesn't seem to back that up. So why must his followers presume to know and demand obedience, belief and faith for a god that doesn't show he is in the business of saving everyone? Did he hire you specifically to sell him to people?

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2 minutes ago, oslove said:

 

So, why then did you write so much words about something personal to you only?

 

From Darkmoonlady:

The criteria you listed isn't what god accepts as faith in him, if I've read the bible correctly. He exists therefore you're as a believer supposed to have faith in him. He could knock the moon out of the sky if he chose. He definitely takes wives and kids away in a flash, and if he did you'd still be required to believe in him and have faith. 

So using them as examples may work for you but it may not be for god. Or for anyone else for that matter. Gods relationships with humans in the bible ranges from near complete destruction, (but he loves you), to asking for the sacrifice of your child and at the last second saying no that's ok, (but he loves you), to smoting entire towns, plagues, and eventually utter destruction, near total annihilation and then maybe paradise on a new earth, but he loves you. That is for some people a bridge too far, and under the auspices of how god works, probably exactly how he wants it. Do you think god intends for everyone to believe, and make it through the gambit of trials and deaths to get to heaven? The biblical evidence doesn't seem to back that up. So why must his followers presume to know and demand obedience, belief and faith for a god that doesn't show he is in the business of saving everyone? Did he hire you specifically to sell him to people?

I wrote about it in general terms, and you were just reminded that people of either persuasion can comment and discuss were you not??

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20 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

I wrote about it in general terms, and you were just reminded that people of either persuasion can comment and discuss were you not??

 

Thanks for the reminder.

 

You see, Darkmoon, I am drawing up a comparative list of explanations on how and why UM members who accept God exists explain their how and why, and how and why members who don't accept God exists explain their how and why they don't accept God exists, is that all right with you?

Let you and me work together to draw up such a list, so that readers everyone can see the tabulation of how's and why's each camp explains, is that all right with you?

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42 minutes ago, oslove said:

 

Thanks for the reminder.

 

You see, Darkmoon, I am drawing up a comparative list of explanations on how and why UM members who accept God exists explain their how and why, and how and why members who don't accept God exists explain their how and why they don't accept God exists, is that all right with you?

Let you and me work together to draw up such a list, so that readers everyone can see the tabulation of how's and why's each camp explains, is that all right with you?

You're free to make all the lists in the world. Trying to quantify people's acceptance of a god vs denial is a little like counting angels on the head of a pin. What conclusion do you hope to draw and do what with it? Those that believe have just as many doubts, sometimes more than non believers. They count on it so much more. Non believers can have just as strong convictions as believers for so many reasons. Beliefs to me are personal, it's like telling strangers your innermost secrets. Is your relationship with god public or private?

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1 hour ago, darkmoonlady said:

You're free to make all the lists in the world. Trying to quantify people's acceptance of a god vs denial is a little like counting angels on the head of a pin. What conclusion do you hope to draw and do what with it? Those that believe have just as many doubts, sometimes more than non believers. They count on it so much more. Non believers can have just as strong convictions as believers for so many reasons. Beliefs to me are personal, it's like telling strangers your innermost secrets. Is your relationship with god public or private?

 

You seem from all indications a veteran of the Bible and of Christianism.

You keep on and on harping on the word personal, as though it justifies everything for you to be a God-no human.

Let us see whether we can talk on God-yes or God-no, on the basis of the intelligence and rational faculty of humans - without bringing in the Bible and Chrstianism - and without appeal to your personal inclination whatsoever.

Is that all right with you?

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1 hour ago, oslove said:

 

You seem from all indications a veteran of the Bible and of Christianism.

You keep on and on harping on the word personal, as though it justifies everything for you to be a God-no human.

Let us see whether we can talk on God-yes or God-no, on the basis of the intelligence and rational faculty of humans - without bringing in the Bible and Chrstianism - and without appeal to your personal inclination whatsoever.

Is that all right with you?

Again you're assuming much and doing very little listening. If this is your thread to just natter away about your version of god only, is that not preaching? 

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4 hours ago, darkmoonlady said:

Again you're assuming much and doing very little listening. If this is your thread to just natter away about your version of god only, is that not preaching? 

 

I care for a discussion, you are into discussion, are you not?

You coulld teach me something I don't know.

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How shall I say it, in order that I will not sound impolite or even lacking in sensitivity?

What about I say laughing-ly: "If you don't want me to pay any attention to you, then you just do not give me any attention."

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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, oslove said:

 

I care for a discussion, you are into discussion, are you not?

You coulld teach me something I don't know.

It doesn't seem as if you are, this seems like your version of god, law and order, with you deciding who falls where in your predescribed spectrum. If you've already judged someone as a non believer without your supposed want for discussion, can you not see that on this side it's not a conversation you're after but a conversion?

Edited by darkmoonlady
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6 minutes ago, oslove said:

How shall I say it, in order that I will not sound impolite or even lacking in sensitivity?

What about I say laughing-ly: "If you don't want me to pay any attention to you, then you just do not give me any attention."

Pardon but you're awfully self important aren't you? This thread isn't your salon to rule over. It's more like people would rather not play chess with you if you rewrote the rules to your specifications. You aren't being paid attention to as much as temporarily tolerated and not for very much longer. 

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1 minute ago, darkmoonlady said:

Pardon but you're awfully self important aren't you? This thread isn't your salon to rule over. It's more like people would rather not play chess with you if you rewrote the rules to your specifications. You aren't being paid attention to as much as temporarily tolerated and not for very much longer. 

 

No comment.

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God is an idea. This idea creates a very personal and subjective experience for the believer. Which leads into mostly confirmation bias due to associations. Not one single person on this planet can prove god exist objectively. Because all experiences are filtered through human perception and are 'tainted' by beliefs. Anything we decided to call god simply quantifies an opinion. God is x, y, z, etc. None of which prove god exist or doesn't. 

Christianity is an opinon.

Gnosticism is an opinion.

Judaism is an opinion.

Islam is an opinon.

Buddhism is an opinion.

Wicca is an opinion.

Satanism, pastafariansim, etc, all opinions. Subjective spiritual and religious model of reality. 

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5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

God is an idea. This idea creates a very personal and subjective experience for the believer. Which leads into mostly confirmation bias due to associations. Not one single person on this planet can prove god exist objectively. Because all experiences are filtered through human perception and are 'tainted' by beliefs. Anything we decided to call god simply quantifies an opinion. God is x, y, z, etc. None of which prove god exist or doesn't. 

Christianity is an opinon.

Gnosticism is an opinion.

Judaism is an opinion.

Islam is an opinon.

Buddhism is an opinion.

Wicca is an opinion.

Satanism, pastafariansim, etc, all opinions. Subjective spiritual and religious model of reality. 

 

I am always keen on definition of words: Xeno, tell me what do mean by the word opinion?

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4 hours ago, XenoFish said:

God is an idea. This idea creates a very personal and subjective experience for the believer. Which leads into mostly confirmation bias due to associations. Not one single person on this planet can prove god exist objectively. Because all experiences are filtered through human perception and are 'tainted' by beliefs. Anything we decided to call god simply quantifies an opinion. God is x, y, z, etc. None of which prove god exist or doesn't. 

Christianity is an opinon.

Gnosticism is an opinion.

Judaism is an opinion.

Islam is an opinon.

Buddhism is an opinion.

Wicca is an opinion.

Satanism, pastafariansim, etc, all opinions. Subjective spiritual and religious model of reality. 

I would like to add the following to this list: all philosophers who try to prove the existence of God through reason, because all they do is also just giving an opinion.

@Oslove : why do you think you can prove the existence of God through reason when all philosophers past and present have failed to do so? Are you better than them? No offense but that's a bit naïve imho. All you do is adding another opinion to the (massive) pile.

The ignostic point of view considers the question of God's existence meaningless because there's no consensus (possible) about what the word "God" means.

For me personally historical and archaeological research has sufficiently shown that we created "God", gods, goddesses etc. and not the other way around.

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1 hour ago, Djedi said:

The ignostic point of view considers the question of God's existence meaningless because there's no consensus (possible) about what the word "God" means.

This right here is the reason for my agnosticism. As there isn't a real reference point, no one can know if it does or doesn't exist. Once we define something, it is debatable. Also considering that "god" is just a title of sorts.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

This right here is the reason for my agnosticism. As there isn't a real reference point, no one can know if it does or doesn't exist. Once we define something, it is debatable. Also considering that "god" is just a title of sorts.

 

But there is a real reference point and that reference point is the knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus and how he lived his religious life. Even if you won't believe that Jesus was a real person who lived a life in Palestine a couple of thousand years ago it would be difficult to deny that there exist narratives of his life and teachings. Although incomplete and highly altered. You might even say adulterated. Yet with a little effort and at least a flicker of faith, a great revelation of what the word 'God' means comes to light. A simple realization that in the human sense, God, although much more than this, cannot be anything less than something like Jesus. 

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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I consider the existence of a creator a possibility.

Yahweh, not so much.

Harte

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41 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

But there is a real reference point and that reference point is the knowledge of the life and teachings of Jesus and how he lived his religious life. Even if you won't believe that Jesus was a real person who lived a life in Palestine a couple of thousand years ago it would be difficult to deny that there exist narratives of his life and teachings. Although incomplete and highly altered. You might even say adulterated. Yet with a little effort and at least a flicker of faith, a great revelation of what the word 'God' means comes to light. A simple realization that in the human sense, God, although much more than this, cannot be anything less than something like Jesus. 

 

 

Jesus is God in the gospel of John but not in Mark, Luke and Matthew, they adhered another Christology.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Djedi said:

Jesus is God in the gospel of John but not in Mark, Luke and Matthew, they adhered another Christology.

 

Nevertheless, taking it all in, including the probability of the record not being exactly accurate, a good enough picture emerges that helps to see what God is really like a lot.

 

 

Edited by Will Due
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1 hour ago, Will Due said:

Nevertheless, taking it all in, including the probability of the record not being exactly accurate, a good enough picture emerges that helps to see what God is really like a lot.

So basically when the story becomes a lie BELIEVE THE LIE? That explains a lot. 
 

cormac

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1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

So basically when the story becomes a lie BELIEVE THE LIE? That explains a lot. 
 

cormac

 

What explains a lot is believing that everything that became a part of the story is a lie while a lot of the parts are true.

 

 

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