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Proof of God (Gnosticism = Knowledge is Power)


InvestigativeThinker

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4 minutes ago, Will Due said:

 

It comes from existence. Which is the evidence. 

 

 

 

You mean, Will, that we have evidence of God existing, and the evidence is we ourselves.

I concur with you whole-heartedly.

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1 hour ago, oslove said:

Okay, everyone, there is existence, where does it come from?

Where does God come from?

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1 hour ago, oslove said:

Okay, everyone, there is existence, where does it come from?

No one knows.  But see the post by @Hammerclaw if you want to jump ahead to where you are eventually going.

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Hammerclaw Posted 4 hours ago    #677 

  5 hours ago, oslove said:

Okay, everyone, there is existence, where does it come from?

(Retort from Ham) Where does God come from?

 

My answer to Ham's retort, "Where does God come from":

"Before God created man, and man came to know God exists from the intelligence, rational faculty, and reasoning process which God endowed man with, God exists.

God and existence are identical, so that anything and everything that is not God, it came from God by God's creation.

God is the cause and man is the effect from God's causation.

 

That is why I define God as:

"The permanent and self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

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God has always existed, that is the explanation how and why the Big Bang took place - because God created it - in order that humans would and did come into existence: it's all in God's grand plan.

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4 minutes ago, oslove said:

God has always existed, that is the explanation how and why the Big Bang took place - because God created it - in order that humans would and did come into existence: it's all in God's grand plan.

Hi Oslove

So what was god doing before the Big Bang and where did god live if there was no existence before the Big Bang

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Just now, jmccr8 said:

Hi Oslove

So what was god doing before the Big Bang and where did god live if there was no existence before the Big Bang

Lets say I put on a computer game that starts in the year 2022.

The programmers have been very kind enough to program it with 14.5 billion years of history. Did the computer game start 14.5 billion years ago or in 2022? I`m pretty sure it started in 2022 as what computer programmer was alive 14.5 billion years ago?

You are trying to frame God`s creation of the universe in classic cause and effect terms. Yet physics knows of other forms of causation such as retro-causality, non-locality, and of course there is even the Buddhist interdependent origination (which is similar to non-locality). I have above given you an example of retro-causation which is an effect bringing into existence in the past its own causes. Its scientifically proven, have a look at the quantum eraser experiment on YouTube.

The universe could be any age once we consider retro-causation. It could very well be 6000 years old.

On the topic on the existence of God then something cannot exist without existing at a present moment in time. So the existence of God means a present for God also existed. A present moment in time requires a past and a future. And hence the mechanism for retro-causation of history all the way back to the Big Bang.

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5 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Lets say I put on a computer game that starts in the year 2022.

The programmers have been very kind enough to program it with 14.5 billion years of history. Did the computer game start 14.5 billion years ago or in 2022? I`m pretty sure it started in 2022 as what computer programmer was alive 14.5 billion years ago?

You are trying to frame God`s creation of the universe in classic cause and effect terms. Yet physics knows of other forms of causation such as retro-causality, non-locality, and of course there is even the Buddhist interdependent origination (which is similar to non-locality). I have above given you an example of retro-causation which is an effect bringing into existence in the past its own causes. Its scientifically proven, have a look at the quantum eraser experiment on YouTube.

The universe could be any age once we consider retro-causation. It could very well be 6000 years old.

On the topic on the existence of God then something cannot exist without existing at a present moment in time. So the existence of God means a present for God also existed. A present moment in time requires a past and a future. And hence the mechanism for retro-causation of history all the way back to the Big Bang.

Hi Cookie

To start with I don’t think god created the universe to start with. My question to Oslove was to get his reaction to see what he thought was going on before the Big Bang. Truth is no one knows what existed prior so any answer is just speculation just like Oslove’s premise that existence is solely a god quality.

I don’t play video games and use a computer not program them so your comparison doesn’t mean much to me.:tu:

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8 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

To start with I don’t think god created the universe to start with. My question to Oslove was to get his reaction to see what he thought was going on before the Big Bang. Truth is no one knows what existed prior so any answer is just speculation just like Oslove’s premise that existence is solely a god quality.

I don’t play video games and use a computer not program them so your comparison doesn’t mean much to me.:tu:

Lets say you are rich.

What does it define? Well it means you have more money that others. So relative to you it defines them as poorer. We live in a reality which is relative in 101 million ways. Your external reality is relative to you and defined by what you are.

A present moment in time defines that there has to be a past and present.

I am arguing that the Universe didn`t start at the Big Bang, it started from God. God cannot exist without having a present moment in time to exist at. Its the same for any object or thing. And the present moment in time for God defined the past and the future.

So the Big Bang didn`t exist, the present moment in time for God existed, and it retro-causality created a history back to the Big Bang. Nothing needs to come before it because it never existed itself. Only the present moment in time for God is actually real.

Edited by Cookie Monster
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1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

Lets say you are rich.

What does it define? Well it means you have more money that others. So relative to you it defines them as poorer. We live in a reality which is relative in 101 million ways. Your external reality is relative to you and defined by what you are.

A present moment in time defines that there has to be a past and present.

I am arguing that the Universe didn`t start at the Big Bang, it started from God. God cannot exist without having a present moment in time to exist at. Its the same for any object or thing. And the present moment in time for God defined the past and the future.

So the Big Bang didn`t exist, the present moment in time for God existed, and it retro-causality created a history back to the Big Bang.

 

Hi Cookie

Sovyou are saying science doesn’t know what it is talking about when it comes to the formation of the universe?

If you wish to pursue this line of thought then I will ask you to show that god exists and that god existed in a non- existent environment before god created existence.

Pretty sure you can’t do either to be honest but go for it if you want

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27 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Oslove

So what was god doing before the Big Bang and where did god live if there was no existence (wrong) before the Big Bang

---------------

There is always existence because God always exists, God and existence are identical.

 

Read carefully:

30 minutes ago, oslove said:

"God has always existed," that is the explanation how and why the Big Bang took place - because God created it - in order that humans would and did come into existence: it's all in God's grand plan.

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10 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Cookie

Sovyou are saying science doesn’t know what it is talking about when it comes to the formation of the universe?

If you wish to pursue this line of thought then I will ask you to show that god exists and that god existed in a non- existent environment before god created existence.

Pretty sure you can’t do either to be honest but go for it if you want

No I am not saying science doesn`t know what its talking about. Its in science. Watch the quantum eraser experiment on YouTube.

Nothingness is the absence of everything, yes? So nothingness cannot exist. If it does its not the absence of everything. So nothingness is impossible, its never existed and never will.

So the minimum that can exist is one thing. This is the start of Monism. If a thing exists it requires three things:

Location: In order for something to exist it needs somewhere to exist at. And that also defines everywhere else it isn`t located at.

Matter: In order for something to exist it needs to be made out of something. And that also defines things its not made out of.

Present: In order for something to exist it needs a present moment in time to exist at. That defines a past and present too. And continued existence of the thing creates a flow in time in one direction of successive present moments in time.

So we have one thing existing, and that not creating the universe through cause an effect, but through interdependent origination. Location, matter, and present, are space, time, and matter, and they are relative just like they are set out in General Relativity.

Next with space, time, and matter, we ask what do they define? We have already done time. But space and matter define backwards and forwards in time to support their own existence so they are nice and water tight. That means space and matter populate backwards in time to a point they can be tied up nicely at. Thats the Big Bang. 

So I have presented an argument for the creation of the universe from a Monistic God, and the retro-causation of the universe back to the Big Bang. I can go further if you wish. I can do the origination of life too from one thing existing. If you want me too I will do it tomorrow as its my bed time in a moment and I have work in the morning.

Edited by Cookie Monster
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44 minutes ago, oslove said:

God has always existed, that is the explanation how and why the Big Bang took place - because God created it - in order that humans would and did come into existence: it's all in God's grand plan.

God of gaps argument :P

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No one will ever convince anyone that god exist. It it utterly pointless and people will use whatever excuses to validate their beliefs in god, no matter how destructive or riduclous it is. Then like good little thought-slaves, they spread their mind-virus to others. 

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Okay, please, everyone atheist folks here, you exist don't you? How did you come into existence?

You will say from your papa and mama.

And how did your papa and mama come into existence?

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2 hours ago, oslove said:

Okay, please, everyone atheist folks here, you exist don't you? How did you come into existence?

You will say from your papa and mama.

And how did your papa and mama come into existence?

 

So, atheist folks here, how did your papa and mama come into existence, and their in turn papa and mama come into existence, and on and on and on . . .

What about an entity that is permanent and self-existent and is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient?

 

If you atheist folks don't accept God, then you don't have any explanation on how and why you exist - unless you believe that it is nothingness that brings you into existence and keeps you in existence.

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40 minutes ago, oslove said:

 

So, atheist folks here, how did your papa and mama come into existence, and their in turn papa and mama come into existence, and on and on and on . . .

What about an entity that is permanent and self-existent and is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient?

 

If you atheist folks don't accept God, then you don't have any explanation on how and why you exist - unless you believe that it is nothingness that brings you into existence and keeps you in existence.

Hi Oslove

Most of us understand evolution and science shows how we evolved and it wasn’t through nothingness. This planet offered the right conditions for life to start and evolve. That is an explanation that you choose to reject even though there is tangible and verifiable evidence of.

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4 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

No I am not saying science doesn`t know what its talking about. Its in science. Watch the quantum eraser experiment on YouTube.

Nothingness is the absence of everything, yes? So nothingness cannot exist. If it does its not the absence of everything. So nothingness is impossible, its never existed and never will.

Hi Cookie

I understand it and my question was to Oslove as he does not understand it so thanks for putting it out there so he can read it.

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Hi Jmc, I am asking you as you are an atheist meaning you don't accept God exists - in the ultimate summation, who or what brought you from nothingness to become somethingness.

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3 hours ago, oslove said:

 

So, atheist folks here, how did your papa and mama come into existence, and their in turn papa and mama come into existence, and on and on and on . . .

What about an entity that is permanent and self-existent and is the creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient?

 

If you atheist folks don't accept God, then you don't have any explanation on how and why you exist - unless you believe that it is nothingness that brings you into existence and keeps you in existence.

Hi Oslove, do you know what abiogenesis is (see here)? No need for the existence of a life creating God.

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8 hours ago, oslove said:

God has always existed, that is the explanation how and why the Big Bang took place - because God created it - in order that humans would and did come into existence: it's all in God's grand plan.

Pope Pius XII back in 1951 was the first to claim that the Big Bang was proof of the existence of God. Making a claim doesn't make it real, it's just an opinion.

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2 hours ago, oslove said:

Hi Jmc, I am asking you as you are an atheist meaning you don't accept God exists - in the ultimate summation, who or what brought you from nothingness to become somethingness.

Hi Oslove

I am neither a theist or an atheist so not sure that you are really following the conversation as I have stated this more than once. As far as I am concerned there is no evidence so it is an unknown.

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IMHO nothing in existence needs a god to explain it.

Just because we don’t know things doesn’t mean that any god did it.

The laws of physics are good enough for me and have plenty of empirical evidence to back them up. 
And they’ll be expanded upon as we learn more.

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