Real ancient mysteries (not Atlantis) that we need to discuss!

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

A map of Erectus sites:

All of these sites, many not by the coast not to mention even less so prior to 25,000BP when ocean levels were 400ft lower, nothing is found to support these claims yet always only the "good stuff" is still waiting to be found underwater? Always convenient. 

What map of Erectus sites?

This one maybe?

[jmccr8]

32 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2019/10/neanderthal-glue-from-the-north-sea

I may have confused the rope part with another find.

Hi Rob

I was looking for that old thread and will look later but did run across this which was part of the same series so will link it for you and will look for the link from years ago later.

https://dna-explained.com/2013/01/10/decoding-and-rethinking-neanderthals/

This caused other experts to think again about the Neanderthals in what could be called a radical shift in perspective. All of a sudden, when we realized that they were part of us, they became more human to us. They could and probably did have speech, so they could and probably did other “human” things too.

Joao Zilhao, a paleolithic archaeologist at the University of Bristol, also a flintknapper, spent years reconstructing the process of making Neanderthal tools, what were once believed to be scraps of flint with sharp edges. He proved, among other things, that obtaining these “scraps” involved a complex process of very specific flintknapping strokes. This skill was far from the previously perceived unintelligent caveman, and furthermore, it likely required language instruction.

Another early technology, in use 250,000 years ago, involved a complex process to create a type of pitch to secure spearheads to spear shafts.

The Neanderthals began evolving before our very eyes.

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

So there is nothing to say they actually made the journey as early as this time but that this is the earliest they could have. 

Agreed.

But if that's the earliest they could have, the next question should be: how?

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

https://www.universiteitleiden.nl/en/news/2019/10/neanderthal-glue-from-the-north-sea

I may have confused the rope part with another find.

Hence why I asked for a source for that claim. 

[Thanos5150]

On 1/8/2023 at 11:16 AM, Abramelin said:

https://cordis.europa.eu/article/id/429354-trending-science-neanderthals-could-hear-and-communicate-like-humans-say-scientists

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/2021-03-02/ty-article/neanderthals-could-speak-new-study-claims-to-prove/0000017f-db0a-dee4-a9ff-ff7b3fb20000

These humans probably had.

You were talking about Erectus. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0266788

You don't comment on the paper that refutes the claims but instead list another that relies on these very disputed claims? Not following you there. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ok, so I was a 100,000 years off.

So?

500,000-300,000= 200,000. What's a 40% error among friends. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Who suggested some "lost civilization"? Not me.

Not directed at you. The same argument was brought up in another recent conversation. 

Quote

 

This is a misnomer as the majority of ancient humans did not live on the coasts, but rather river systems. The Danube. The Tigris-Euphrates. The Nile. The Yangtze. These are not just major ancient hubs of human settlement and civilization, but the hubs. Kind of weird that only the Lost Civilization exclusively choose the coasts to live which as luck would have it wiped away all trace of their existence and yet the overwhelming majority of what came "later" choose river systems. Lesson learned I guess....

Rivers are where the water comes to grow crops. It is also a highway system. In arid climates, like Egypt and Mesopotamia, these rivers systems, which include tributaries and wetlands/marshes, are also where the trees and reeds grew. Its also a lot easier to catch fish in a river than open water of an ocean. 

Obviously living on the coasts has benefits for certain applications, like ports which facilitate trade, but otherwise for ancient cultures river systems were life. The Neolithic Revolution was not a product of coasts, but river systems. 

Tiahuanaco/Puma Punku, Ollantaytambo, Cusco, Sacsayhuaman, Machu Picchu-which I think we can all agree were built by an antediluvian lost civilization (wink)-were all built far inland (even farther 12,000yrs ago) along the Urubamba river system.

 

The same would apply to archaic hominids whose sites are found most often near ancient freshwater rivers, lakes, wadis, etc.     

Quote

 

---

Yeah, the "good stuff" will be found in submerged coastal areas. You know why?

 

I just explained why they would not be, so no I guess I don't. 

Quote

Because, if these ancient boys and girls did travel by sea, they probably stayed as close to the coast as possible. And that's where they would have left their boats or rafts. Because of sea level rise anything concerning those rafts/boats - and tools they may have used - will most probably be found by divers.

Again, what coast is that? The coast today or the one when sea levels were 400ft lower? Regardless, you are missing the point. Coast dwellers are not magic beings where inlanders are primitive knuckle draggers. The inherent material and cognitive abilities required to build boats and purposefully navigate open sea would also be displayed in some form or another in these other sites as well. There is nothing to suggest Erectus was capable of such things. Neanderthal is clearly a different discussion. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

What map of Erectus sites?

This one maybe?

How strange. What do you think this is:

With the tag line: "A map of Erectus sites:"

So you post another map showing less sites? You lost me. 

[Thanos5150]

15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Agreed.

But if that's the earliest they could have, the next question should be: how?

"Agreed"? That's what the paper says so I am not sure what we are agreeing on. 

This "could have" is meaningless as to when and which hominids were cognitively capable. If you read these papers these discoveries go hand in hand with the idea that if true it requires a "change [in] our understanding of early hominids' cognitive abilities." Just because any one "could" have farmed at any point in the millions of years of hominid history, of course does not mean they did or cognitively could have.  

The oldest site where it appears the only way of getting there was across open water is Crete which dates to 130,000BP. These were the tools they found:

http://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Stonetools.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/01/04/article-1343969-0CA250B5000005DC-939_634x411.jpg

Team Led by PC Faculty Member Finds Evidence of Earliest Seafaring by Human Ancestors

Quote

Strasser and his team of archeologists and geologists studied tectonic uplift and soil development to determine the dates for these artifacts. They sought out old soils--called "red beds"--at least 100,000 years old.

The team collected a sample of more than 2,100 stone artifacts made of quartz and chert. Many of the tools were found in marine terraces as much as 92 meters above the present sea level, the result of shifts in the tectonic plate. These terraces on the south-facing slope of Crete are the result of uplift by the African tectonic plate going under and pushing up the European plate, explained the survey director.

"We found hundreds of Mesolithic tools, called microliths, about three centimeters in size, as well as much larger bifaces, or hand axes, identified with the Palaeolithic period outside of caves along the sides of the Preveli Gorge," Strasser said. Such tools, he added, are associated with our first ancestors to leave Africa.

The team found these Stone Age artifacts in the summer of 2008. Last year, the team concentrated on geological analysis to provide datable context.

"We used a combination of dating methods including Carbon 14, Soil Maturity Stages, and Marine Isotope Stages," he said, adding that the "combination of tectonic uplift and fluctuating sea-levels over millennia make the dating complex."

Emphasis mine. And while this date of 130,000BP is handed out the dating is actually anywhere from 100,000-700,000yrs ago, assuming they got it right in the first place. It reminds me of the cart ruts of Malta, some of which go off cliffs now many meters above the current sea level on one side:

And right into the water on the other:

Hmm. 

Further reading: Searching for a Stone Age Odysseus 

I would also note that while these tools "resemble Acheulean tools", they are quite primitive even by Archeulean standards which from what I can see show little to no signs of use.  

At any rate, my next question is still "who" as the "how" is predicated by the "who" as this determines what technology and cognitive abilities would be available. Other sites in the Aegean "resemble" Mousterian assemblages which were used by Neanderthal and several archaic populations of Homo sapiens, for example as early as Jebel Irhoud c. 300,000BP,  or Qafzeh in Israel c. 80,000-120,000BP which is only several miles from the current Mediterranean coast.  Also near the coast is Misliya, another site in Israel north of Qafzeh, where archaic Homo sapiens remains have been dated to 175,000-200,000BP.  Their tools are described as a "...Paleolithic stone tool kit, similar to that found with the earliest modern humans in Africa." Point is, until verifiable remains are found at these sites identifying a specific species associated with the tool assemblage the truth is whether Neanderthal or archaic Homo sapiens we do not know who these people were.    

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

How strange. What do you think this is:

With the tag line: "A map of Erectus sites:"

So you post another map showing less sites? You lost me. 

You didn't post a map, that's why I added one.

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Again, what coast is that? The coast today or the one when sea levels were 400ft lower?

Have a guess: I mentioned 'submerged'.

[Abramelin]

10 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

You don't comment on the paper that refutes the claims but instead list another that relies on these very disputed claims? Not following you there. 

I posted a more recent investigation. That's why.

[Thanos5150]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You didn't post a map, that's why I added one.

What in the hell is a matter with you, boy? You don't see this map:

 

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

What in the hell is a matter with you, boy? You don't see this map:

 

This is a screenshot of your post:

So no, I don't see your map.

[Thanos5150]

Just now, Abramelin said:

This is a screenshot of your post:

So no, I don't see your map.

Sweet Christmas. If you can't see that then one can only imagine how much else you are missing. Are you using a computer or a phone?

Well, there is a big beautiful map there. Few are like it. Perhaps one of the best maps ever made. Between the two of us its been posted probably 10 times now. 

[Abramelin]

12 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Sweet Christmas. If you can't see that then one can only imagine how much else you are missing. Are you using a computer or a phone?

Well, there is a big beautiful map there. Few are like it. Perhaps one of the best maps ever made. Between the two of us its been posted probably 10 times now. 

Maybe you can post a link to that map?

This is a fg twilight zone. I'm on a phone, btw.

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe you can post a link to that map?

This is a fg twilight zone. I'm on a phone, btw.

You can't see this map?:

cormac

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

You can't see this map?:

cormac

Yes, I can see that one.

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Abramelin said:

Yes, I can see that one.

He's posted it several times now Abe, don't know why you haven't seen it. 

cormac

[Thanos5150]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

He's posted it several times now Abe, don't know why you haven't seen it. 

cormac

Not to mention it gets posted again every time he replies. 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

He's posted it several times now Abe, don't know why you haven't seen it. 

cormac

I informed Saru about this. Did Thanos use the same link??

This one, I mean:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/uploads/monthly_2023_01/1819447658_Erectussites.jpg.5caf589117fdb16d0e69d49e35351cae.jpg

Edited January 10, 2023 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

Just now, Abramelin said:

I informed Saru about this. Did Thanos use the same link??

I assume so. While the problem may or may not be yours specifically, it didn't originate with Thanos either. My 2 cents. 

cormac

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

I assume so. While the problem may or may not be yours specifically, it didn't originate with Thanos either. My 2 cents. 

cormac

Ok, I will no longer derail this thread. Let's wait for Saru.

Thanks.

[Saru]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

I informed Saru about this. Did Thanos use the same link??

The map Thanos posted is hotlinked to Bing images, the other one that you can see is a local file hosted here on UM.

Your mobile browser must not be showing images from Bing for some reason.