Real ancient mysteries (not Atlantis) that we need to discuss!

[jethrofloyd]

33. Who built The Goseck Circle, the German neolithic astronomical clock?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_Circle

[Kane999]

12 hours ago, Harte said:

Theoretically, rafting like that would need to occur multiple times for a population large enough to be genetically viable.
Can't be just a one-off.
With species of homo, it wouldn't be a stretch to suppose they just used a log or two once the idea to do it was known.

Obviously, it could get more and more sophisticated as time passed.

Harte

Perhaps we can agree that it must have been an extraordinary event/events that allowed monkeys to colonize the Americas. Given a time frame of tens of millions of years, black swan events become more plausible though. Perhaps a whole troop on a huge raft of vegetation? I can only guess.

Yes, perhaps it started with just a log or two in order to cross inland bodies of water or get at more food resources, but I would surmise that the drive for more sophistication would have been intense. One reason being for more stable platforms of course to prevent drowning and another reason that would have been acute in Southern Climes. Crocodile predation would have been a real problem. The more wood whether it be logs or bamboo lashed together the better. I think that as modern humans we sometimes forget the pressure put on us to adapt to predation in the not so long ago.

This statement is for Piney also as he is following the thread. I have always wondered whether the Clovis points might have been as much if not more defensive weapons than to hunt game. That is to say that the main drive to develop these points may have been to protect the band against the formidable predators of the time. Avoidance of course being the number one option. I can't imagine a band wanting to live anywhere near a pride of American Lions.

[Kane999]

8 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

33. Who built The Goseck Circle, the German neolithic astronomical clock?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_Circle

Sites like this appear to be widespread in Europe indicating significant cultural exchange. As to who built it? My guess is that they will sooner or later find human remains associated with the structure and then can perhaps attribute the circle to some group by using DNA analysis. I take it that no gravesites have been discovered yet?

[Kenemet]

5 hours ago, Kane999 said:

This statement is for Piney also as he is following the thread. I have always wondered whether the Clovis points might have been as much if not more defensive weapons than to hunt game. That is to say that the main drive to develop these points may have been to protect the band against the formidable predators of the time. Avoidance of course being the number one option. I can't imagine a band wanting to live anywhere near a pride of American Lions.

It's more likely that they were hunting weapons.

It takes a lot of stabby-ness to kill a big mammal (like an elephant, for example.)  It can be done, but doing it with little bird points or the small deer-hunting points will be... well... pointless.  It would take weeks to get any significant damage to the animal.  The longer the thing is alive (and angry at being poked in the wherevers by pointy things) the more likely it is that the hunter will be killed.

Think about you using a butter knife to try and take down a professional sumo wrestler.  You *might* get lucky, but your chances of doing it every single time are much better if you're wielding a sword or even a Bowie knife or Gurkha knife.

[Piney]

20 hours ago, Harte said:

Theoretically, rafting like that would need to occur multiple times for a population large enough to be genetically viable.
Can't be just a one-off.
With species of homo, it wouldn't be a stretch to suppose they just used a log or two once the idea to do it was known.

Obviously, it could get more and more sophisticated as time passed.

Harte

The piece of Denisovan jewelry found look pretty sophisticated. It also looked like there was some serious time put into it over a very long winter.

It would make sense there would be time put into a dugout after resources were gathered and the r&r season was on them.

And I think we should update our theory because Asian Homo Erectus are looking more like Denisovans.

[Kane999]

1 hour ago, Kenemet said:

It's more likely that they were hunting weapons.

It takes a lot of stabby-ness to kill a big mammal (like an elephant, for example.)  It can be done, but doing it with little bird points or the small deer-hunting points will be... well... pointless.  It would take weeks to get any significant damage to the animal.  The longer the thing is alive (and angry at being poked in the wherevers by pointy things) the more likely it is that the hunter will be killed.

Think about you using a butter knife to try and take down a professional sumo wrestler.  You *might* get lucky, but your chances of doing it every single time are much better if you're wielding a sword or even a Bowie knife or Gurkha knife.

Agreed that it could be done but still very dangerous and still a low likelihood of a quick kill. The best option would be to administer a wound deep enough to cause infection then to be very patient as the animal weakened. Another option would be to put poison on the point again using patience, but I am not aware of any trace amounts being found on Clovis points. Either way would need a quick getaway as the injured animal and quite possibly its herd mates are going to seek retribution. Another thing to consider is that bringing down an animal of that size is going to attract every predator for miles. A dicey situation when considering the carnivores of the time. I am not saying that humans never hunted megafauna but that the costs/benefits ratio is not what some academics in this field might have imagined it to be.

[Piney]

7 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Perhaps we can agree that it must have been an extraordinary event/events that allowed monkeys to colonize the Americas. Given a time frame of tens of millions of years, black swan events become more plausible though. Perhaps a whole troop on a huge raft of vegetation? I can only guess.

Yes, perhaps it started with just a log or two in order to cross inland bodies of water or get at more food resources, but I would surmise that the drive for more sophistication would have been intense. One reason being for more stable platforms of course to prevent drowning and another reason that would have been acute in Southern Climes. Crocodile predation would have been a real problem. The more wood whether it be logs or bamboo lashed together the better. I think that as modern humans we sometimes forget the pressure put on us to adapt to predation in the not so long ago.

This statement is for Piney also as he is following the thread. I have always wondered whether the Clovis points might have been as much if not more defensive weapons than to hunt game. That is to say that the main drive to develop these points may have been to protect the band against the formidable predators of the time. Avoidance of course being the number one option. I can't imagine a band wanting to live anywhere near a pride of American Lions.

Some think the Clovis spear was the mainshaft with the foreshaft insert design making your spear a knife and allowing you to "reload" your spear so it was actually multipurpose.

You have to tag me like this @Kane999 or quote me because I post from one of our company tablets and miss things while multitasking. 

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

Agreed that it could be done but still very dangerous and still a low likelihood of a quick kill. The best option would be to administer a wound deep enough to cause infection then to be very patient as the animal weakened. Another option would be to put poison on the point again using patience, but I am not aware of any trace amounts being found on Clovis points. Either way would need a quick getaway as the injured animal and quite possibly its herd mates are going to seek retribution. Another thing to consider is that bringing down an animal of that size is going to attract every predator for miles. A dicey situation when considering the carnivores of the time. I am not saying that humans never hunted megafauna but that the costs/benefits ratio is not what some academics in this field might have imagined it to be.

Hit them up behind or under the shoulder which causes massive bleeding in four footed animals. But like I said. Eastern Clovis points were smaller. More like for elk or deer.

@Kenemet All "bird points" are arrowheads except Archaic or Hunterbrook triangles. Which served in atlatl spear foreshafts.

Picture a side quiver of inserts. Except for Clovis who probably only had 2 extra inserts. Which is why their points are far scarcer and Archaic points are a dime a dozen.

[Piney]

16 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

33. Who built The Goseck Circle, the German neolithic astronomical clock?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goseck_Circle

Neolithic Farmers.

Actually all agriculturists needed to track the stars so they knew when to plant. Knowing when to perform ceremonies were second.

The Indians of the Outer Coastal Plains of NA didn't muck with tracking stars much because they were gardening agroforesters. But you hit the intense farming tribes on the other end of the Appalachians you see many using circles and tracking star alignments. 

The Shenks Ferry Culture in Lancaster PA had some serious star tracking "clocks" made with a circle of posts. They also had some serious cornfields too. 

[Timothy]

43 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

Agreed that it could be done but still very dangerous and still a low likelihood of a quick kill. The best option would be to administer a wound deep enough to cause infection then to be very patient as the animal weakened. Another option would be to put poison on the point again using patience, but I am not aware of any trace amounts being found on Clovis points. Either way would need a quick getaway as the injured animal and quite possibly its herd mates are going to seek retribution. Another thing to consider is that bringing down an animal of that size is going to attract every predator for miles. A dicey situation when considering the carnivores of the time. I am not saying that humans never hunted megafauna but that the costs/benefits ratio is not what some academics in this field might have imagined it to be.

The best option would be to cut tendons in legs.

[Piney]

31 minutes ago, Timothy said:

The best option would be to cut tendons in legs.

Then you would have a thrashing animal with it's still usable limbs.

Like I said before. Right behind the front limbs are some serious arteries which cause massive bleeding. 

[Harte]

12 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Perhaps we can agree that it must have been an extraordinary event/events that allowed monkeys to colonize the Americas. Given a time frame of tens of millions of years, black swan events become more plausible though. Perhaps a whole troop on a huge raft of vegetation? I can only guess.

Yes, perhaps it started with just a log or two in order to cross inland bodies of water or get at more food resources, but I would surmise that the drive for more sophistication would have been intense. One reason being for more stable platforms of course to prevent drowning and another reason that would have been acute in Southern Climes. Crocodile predation would have been a real problem. The more wood whether it be logs or bamboo lashed together the better. I think that as modern humans we sometimes forget the pressure put on us to adapt to predation in the not so long ago.

Certainly, with Sapiens.
But there are other versions of Homo, as well as other hominins, that would have been capable of very basic rafting.

Harte

[Thanos5150]

13 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Perhaps we can agree that it must have been an extraordinary event/events that allowed monkeys to colonize the Americas.

ALZ-113. Next, the world. 

[Kenemet]

7 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Agreed that it could be done but still very dangerous and still a low likelihood of a quick kill. The best option would be to administer a wound deep enough to cause infection then to be very patient as the animal weakened. Another option would be to put poison on the point again using patience, but I am not aware of any trace amounts being found on Clovis points. Either way would need a quick getaway as the injured animal and quite possibly its herd mates are going to seek retribution. Another thing to consider is that bringing down an animal of that size is going to attract every predator for miles. A dicey situation when considering the carnivores of the time. I am not saying that humans never hunted megafauna but that the costs/benefits ratio is not what some academics in this field might have imagined it to be.

Poison's not likely, and the usual method (as I recall) was using jumps where they simply herded the animals off cliffs.

You'd get the scavengers first at a kill; predators are somewhat slower to find it though they will eventually, thanks to the scavengers.

But the tools are there to fit a need.  Big spearpoints aren't needed for the usual diet of rabbit or even deer ... or even humans (clubs and smaller points will work just fine on h. sapiens.)  Unless it was for some sort or ceremonial reason, it seems more likely that the clovis points were for much larger creatures like bears and bison (etc)

 

 

[Kane999]

13 hours ago, Timothy said:

The best option would be to cut tendons in legs.

The problem that I see with that option as well as causing a wound deep enough to cause a mammoth to bleed out by a strike behind the forelegs is proximity to the animal. One would have to get close to effectively execute either option because of the thick hide, the hair mass and the sheer size of the animal. Two details to consider, first assuming mammoths had as good a sense of smell and as keen hearing as African elephants, getting close without being detected by the animal or it's herd mates would be problematic. Second, that leads to a theme that I keep coming back to on the subject. The danger outweighing the benefits. Close proximity is going to lead to human deaths. These bands would not have been large. Along with the desire of safeguarding one's own life and limb come the responsibility to the band. Losing just a few hunters would jeopardize the survival of the whole group.

 

Exhibit one is the African elephant. Trashing the Over Kill Hypothesis, the African Elephant and other African Megafauna were doing just fine until the introduction of firearms on the continent. Except for scavenging opportunities, just not on the daily menu for Africans. Too difficult and too dangerous unless one had suicidal tendencies.

[Kane999]

14 hours ago, Piney said:

The piece of Denisovan jewelry found look pretty sophisticated. It also looked like there was some serious time put into it over a very long winter.

It would make sense there would be time put into a dugout after resources were gathered and the r&r season was on them.

And I think we should update our theory because Asian Homo Erectus are looking more like Denisovans.

I doubt your comment directly applies to the following topic and it is almost a topic in and of itself but:

Was Dragon Skull Man actually a Denisovan?

It was named as a new species, but this splitting tendency has long had a hold on the field. As a side note, when the researchers estimate this man's size, they are circumspect but reading through the lines, they obviously believe that he would have been an imposing specimen when alive.

https://www.science.org/content/article/stunning-dragon-man-skull-may-be-elusive-denisovan-or-new-species-human

I think once DNA analysis is performed that it likely to turn out to be an almost perfectly preserved skull of a Denisovan.

[Piney]

7 hours ago, Kane999 said:

https://www.science.org/content/article/stunning-dragon-man-skull-may-be-elusive-denisovan-or-new-species-human

I think once DNA analysis is performed that it likely to turn out to be an almost perfectly preserved skull of a Denisovan.

I do too. 

[Thanos5150]

14 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Was Dragon Skull Man actually a Denisovan?It was named as a new species, but this splitting tendency has long had a hold on the field.

The winners (discoverers) always want it to be a new species. The losers don't which as much as they argue against it no doubt if they were the ones who found it they'd be trying to classify if as a new species too.

Quote

As a side note, when the researchers estimate this man's size, they are circumspect but reading through the lines, they obviously believe that he would have been an imposing specimen when alive.

https://www.science.org/content/article/stunning-dragon-man-skull-may-be-elusive-denisovan-or-new-species-human

I think once DNA analysis is performed that it likely to turn out to be an almost perfectly preserved skull of a Denisovan.

I like this quote:

"It's a wonderful skull; I think it's the best skull of a Denisovan that we'll ever have," says paleoanthropologist Jean-Jacques Hublin of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology."

Chinese response: "Jeez-what a dick".  

Regardless of who this fellow is, it is highly unlikely he is the same species that made these:

[Timothy]

On 10/13/2022 at 9:33 PM, Piney said:

Then you would have a thrashing animal with it's still usable limbs.

Like I said before. Right behind the front limbs are some serious arteries which cause massive bleeding. 

But then you have to follow the blood trail. I’m feeling lazy today…

I vote tendons to incapacitate and then arteries (while being careful to avoid the thrashing).

[Piney]

17 minutes ago, Timothy said:

But then you have to follow the blood trail. I’m feeling lazy today…

I vote tendons to incapacitate and then arteries (while being careful to avoid the thrashing).

They never got far with a shoulder shot and I used a Bear Kodiak recurve. Of course that's with whitetails. With mulies at my mom's ranch they don't smell you, only the horse so I'd hit them point blank with my Enfield and send them across the oat grass. 

 

[Golden Duck]

On 10/15/2022 at 9:01 AM, Piney said:

They never got far with a shoulder shot and I used a Bear Kodiak recurve. Of course that's with whitetails. With mulies at my mom's ranch they don't smell you, only the horse so I'd hit them point blank with my Enfield and send them across the oat grass. 

 

No mention of the fact that man and horse are the only animals that sweat to mitigate heat stress.

Keep on running.

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

No mention of the fact that man and horse are the only animals that sweat to mitigate heat stress.

Keep on running.

Except horses stop sweating, overheat and die faster than us.

[Golden Duck]

5 minutes ago, Piney said:

Except horses stop sweating, overheat and die faster than us.

The movie Hidalgo and it being based on the writing of Frank Hopkins led me here.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

The movie Hidalgo and it being based on the writing of Frank Hopkins led me here.

He was a liar.

Lady Anne Davenport was actually Lady Anne Blunt, granddaughter of Lord Byron and founder of Crabbet stud. Davenport was actually the name of the satellite farm in New Jersey and if she encountered a American cowboy during the Sea of Fire she would of included him in her journals.

 

[Golden Duck]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

He was a liar.

Lady Anne Davenport was actually Lady Anne Blunt, granddaughter of Lord Byron and founder of Crabbet stud. Davenport was actually the name of the satellite farm in New Jersey and if she encountered a American cowboy during the Sea of Fire she would of included him in her journals.

 

Yeah, I remember his writing being classed as fiction to support preservation of mustang.