Real ancient mysteries (not Atlantis) that we need to discuss!

[Kane999]

On 10/14/2022 at 11:26 AM, Thanos5150 said:

The winners (discoverers) always want it to be a new species. The losers don't which as much as they argue against it no doubt if they were the ones who found it they'd be trying to classify if as a new species too.

I like this quote:

"It's a wonderful skull; I think it's the best skull of a Denisovan that we'll ever have," says paleoanthropologist Jean-Jacques Hublin of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology."

Chinese response: "Jeez-what a dick".  

Regardless of who this fellow is, it is highly unlikely he is the same species that made these:

I feel reasonably confident in my assumption that DNA analysis will show that this man was a Denisovan although the researchers appear to be in no hurry to have the skull undergo testing. With that said, what is your reasoning for stating that the depicted objects were made by a different species? Granted, a significant difference in dating is involved but toolkits and culture do usually evolve over time.

[Kane999]

On 10/16/2022 at 5:39 PM, Piney said:

Except horses stop sweating, overheat and die faster than us.

In the past, I have read speculation that running mid-size game to the point of exhaustion was an effective hunting technique for early humans and perhaps could even help explain some physiological adaptations in human evolution.

[Piney]

53 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

In the past, I have read speculation that running mid-size game to the point of exhaustion was an effective hunting technique for early humans and perhaps could even help explain some physiological adaptations in human evolution.

Running fast is good for the chase and the chased. 

There are elk drive lanes around the Great Lakes dating all the way back to the Late Paleo-Early Archaic.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Kane999 said:

I feel reasonably confident in my assumption that DNA analysis will show that this man was a Denisovan although the researchers appear to be in no hurry to have the skull undergo testing. With that said, what is your reasoning for stating that the depicted objects were made by a different species? Granted, a significant difference in dating is involved but toolkits and culture do usually evolve over time.

There are some that say the yellow fat found in Asian skin gene came from the Denisovans. But I haven't seen a paper.

They never extracted DNA from the "Homo Erectus" remains with shovel incisors. I'm more than certain those remains are also Denisovan.

[Thanos5150]

3 hours ago, Kane999 said:

I feel reasonably confident in my assumption that DNA analysis will show that this man was a Denisovan although the researchers appear to be in no hurry to have the skull undergo testing. With that said, what is your reasoning for stating that the depicted objects were made by a different species? Granted, a significant difference in dating is involved but toolkits and culture do usually evolve over time.

The cranial morphology is too primitive to allow for the higher cognitive functions required to not only make the objects, but in the case of the needle, apply them for its intended purpose. 

[Swede]

On 10/5/2022 at 12:35 PM, cormac mac airt said:

I think the Overkill idea is just so much trash as it attempts to place a “one size fits all” explanation onto what is really a more complex issue. Not even megafauna and their extinction occurred in a vacuum. And as Essan said humans were a contributor to their extinction NOT the sole reason for it. 
 

cormac

Generally correct, though the extinction aspect may deserve further study. Environmental factors were certainly involved.

While Martin’s over-kill hypothesis (1966, 1973, 2005, etc.) has received more than its share of critique, arguably  culturally related, more recent studies suggest that the basics of his hypothesis may well be archaeologically supported. The recent publication by Prates and Perez (2021), based upon the demise of 10 South American megafauna species in coordination with an assessment of human distribution patterns and the development and later disuse of the Fishtail projectile point (FPP) presents a rather compelling argument. Timelines. The authors acknowledge that the paper may be somewhat controversial, nonetheless, worthwhile reading.

Prates, L and S. I. Perez

2021 Late Pleistocene South American Megafaunal Extinctions Associated With the Rise and Fall of the Fishtail Points and Human Population. Nature Communications 12.2175:1-11.

There are also other relatively recent studies that would support the basics of Martin’s hypothesis. For example:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283293125_Test_of_Martin%27s_overkill_hypothesis_using_radiocarbon_dates_on_extinct_megafauna

The impact of modern human lithic technology, in concert with environmentally stressed faunal populations and the associated reproductive rates of said populations, may well have been the tipping point.

.

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Swede said:

Generally correct, though the extinction aspect may deserve further study. Environmental factors were certainly involved.

While Martin’s over-kill hypothesis (1966, 1973, 2005, etc.) has received more than its share of critique, arguably  culturally related, more recent studies suggest that the basics of his hypothesis may well be archaeologically supported. The recent publication by Prates and Perez (2021), based upon the demise of 10 South American megafauna species in coordination with an assessment of human distribution patterns and the development and later disuse of the Fishtail projectile point (FPP) presents a rather compelling argument. Timelines. The authors acknowledge that the paper may be somewhat controversial, nonetheless, worthwhile reading.

 

Prates, L and S. I. Perez

 

2021 Late Pleistocene South American Megafaunal Extinctions Associated With the Rise and Fall of the Fishtail Points and Human Population. Nature Communications 12.2175:1-11.

 

There are also other relatively recent studies that would support the basics of Martin’s hypothesis. For example:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283293125_Test_of_Martin%27s_overkill_hypothesis_using_radiocarbon_dates_on_extinct_megafauna

The impact of modern human lithic technology, in concert with environmentally stressed faunal populations and the associated reproductive rates of said populations, may well have been the tipping point..

There was a fishtail point tradition in South America?

Is it related to the Orient in Eastern NA? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Piney
Atlantis is a brain fart

[Swede]

9 hours ago, Piney said:

There was a fishtail point tradition in South America?

Is it related to the Orient in Eastern NA? 

Most assuredly. See below. As to a relationship to the Orient tradition, that would be rather unlikely. The Orient tradition is late Archaic to Early Woodland. The South American FPP originated circa 13,000 BP and fell out of use ~2,000 years later with the demise of the megafauna. This latter is one of the points graphed by Prates and Perez (2021) in partial support of their hypothesis.

Further on the South American FPP:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/276255249_'Fish-Tail'_projectile_points_and_megamammals_New_evidence_from_Paso_Otero_5_Argentina

https://www.scirp.org/html/1-1140047_56917.htm

.

[Kane999]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:42 AM, Thanos5150 said:

The cranial morphology is too primitive to allow for the higher cognitive functions required to not only make the objects, but in the case of the needle, apply them for its intended purpose. 

I understand your stance. However, I have always been reluctant to assign too much weight to cranial morphology in extrapolating to technologies, cognitive abilities and cultural practices in the various Hominid species. I would prefer to wait to see completed DNA analyses. If this skull turns out to be a Denisovan, well our understanding of what their sister species, Neanderthals, could do has steadily become more nuanced. The Neanderthals were capable of much more sophisticated behavior than was originally envisioned. Again, assuming that this skull is a Denisovan, I would suggest more discoveries along with more research need to be done before taking a hard line one way or another.

[SHaYap]

@Abramelin

Phoenicia, Carthage and the new world... 

Quote

 

[00.053:23]

~

 

[Thanos5150]

15 hours ago, Kane999 said:

I understand your stance. However, I have always been reluctant to assign too much weight to cranial morphology in extrapolating to technologies, cognitive abilities and cultural practices in the various Hominid species.

Why- there are no exceptions. A specimen/species either has the cranial morphological goods or it doesn't and so far those that don't have not produced technology, cognitive abilities, or cultural practices beyond their station.   

Quote

I would prefer to wait to see completed DNA analyses. If this skull turns out to be a Denisovan, well our understanding of what their sister species, Neanderthals, could do has steadily become more nuanced. The Neanderthals were capable of much more sophisticated behavior than was originally envisioned. Again, assuming that this skull is a Denisovan, I would suggest more discoveries along with more research need to be done before taking a hard line one way or another.

As sophisticated as Neanderthals relatively were, as much if not more so than their Homo sapiens contemporaries, circular jade bracelets with threaded drilled holes and sewing needles were still quite beyond their purview. And not just any sewing needle but one that has an eye- something that did not appear in the Hs tool kit until roughly 25,000yrs later which Hs occupation of Denisovan cave just so happened to end c. 20,000yrs ago. 

A lot more discoveries, or at least one very significant one, need to be made. 

     

[Piney]

17 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Why- there are no exceptions. A specimen/species either has the cranial morphological goods or it doesn't and so far those that don't have not produced technology, cognitive abilities, or cultural practices beyond their station.   

As sophisticated as Neanderthals relatively were, as much if not more so than their Homo sapiens contemporaries, circular jade bracelets with threaded drilled holes and sewing needles were still quite beyond their purview. And not just any sewing needle but one that has an eye- something that did not appear in the Hs tool kit until roughly 25,000yrs later which Hs occupation of Denisovan cave just so happened to end c. 20,000yrs ago. 

A lot more discoveries, or at least one very significant one, need to be made. 

     

  Rockshelter contexts are generally mixed up by the intrusion and activities of animals and pottery, points and other objects are dated by cultural style.

I never thought to apply this to Denisovan Cave........duh! 

So until the culture of the bracelet and needle are identified who knows who made them.......and this was a pre-coffee thought. 

 

[Kane999]

19 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Why- there are no exceptions. A specimen/species either has the cranial morphological goods or it doesn't and so far those that don't have not produced technology, cognitive abilities, or cultural practices beyond their station.   

As sophisticated as Neanderthals relatively were, as much if not more so than their Homo sapiens contemporaries, circular jade bracelets with threaded drilled holes and sewing needles were still quite beyond their purview. And not just any sewing needle but one that has an eye- something that did not appear in the Hs tool kit until roughly 25,000yrs later which Hs occupation of Denisovan cave just so happened to end c. 20,000yrs ago. 

A lot more discoveries, or at least one very significant one, need to be made. 

     

Admittedly, I am no expert on cranial morphology, so I am ill equipped to engage in a detailed back and forth on its usefulness in determining Neanderthal or Denisovan cognitive ability. Articles such as this however undergird my caution.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cave-that-housed-neandertals-and-denisovans-challenges-view-of-cultural-evolution/

I certainly agree that a lot more research needs to be done and I hope that more discoveries will be made. Piney mentioned above that he thought that additional Denisovan fossils were already at hand but had been misidentified. I agree that is a real possibility, but I am not aware of any plans to subject them to DNA analysis.

[Kane999]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

  Rockshelter contexts are generally mixed up by the intrusion and activities of animals and pottery, points and other objects are dated by cultural style.

I never thought to apply this to Denisovan Cave........duh! 

So until the culture of the bracelet and needle are identified who knows who made them.......and this was a pre-coffee thought. 

 

Yea. I am sure that intrusion can be a real problem and would provide a ready explanation for the bracelet and needle. Surely the researchers involved realized that possibility and addressed it in their findings? I don't know how through a job they did in trying to counter an objection that was bound to arise.

[Kane999]

On 10/20/2022 at 1:33 AM, Swede said:

Generally correct, though the extinction aspect may deserve further study. Environmental factors were certainly involved.

While Martin’s over-kill hypothesis (1966, 1973, 2005, etc.) has received more than its share of critique, arguably  culturally related, more recent studies suggest that the basics of his hypothesis may well be archaeologically supported. The recent publication by Prates and Perez (2021), based upon the demise of 10 South American megafauna species in coordination with an assessment of human distribution patterns and the development and later disuse of the Fishtail projectile point (FPP) presents a rather compelling argument. Timelines. The authors acknowledge that the paper may be somewhat controversial, nonetheless, worthwhile reading.

 

Prates, L and S. I. Perez

 

2021 Late Pleistocene South American Megafaunal Extinctions Associated With the Rise and Fall of the Fishtail Points and Human Population. Nature Communications 12.2175:1-11.

 

There are also other relatively recent studies that would support the basics of Martin’s hypothesis. For example:

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283293125_Test_of_Martin%27s_overkill_hypothesis_using_radiocarbon_dates_on_extinct_megafauna

The impact of modern human lithic technology, in concert with environmentally stressed faunal populations and the associated reproductive rates of said populations, may well have been the tipping point.

 

 

.

Thanks for the links. I will read them when I have time. Though I have long disliked Martin's hypothesis, South American megafauna extinction puzzles me even more than the extinction in North America.

[Piney]

10 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

Thanks for the links. I will read them when I have time. Though I have long disliked Martin's hypothesis, South American megafauna extinction puzzles me even more than the extinction in North America.

Well, the rainforests were savanna and it was colder and more arid.

 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Piney
Atlantis is a brain fart

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

Yea. I am sure that intrusion can be a real problem and would provide a ready explanation for the bracelet and needle. Surely the researchers involved realized that possibility and addressed it in their findings? I don't know how through a job they did in trying to counter an objection that was bound to arise.

There was no mention of intrusion in any articles I saw. Which is why it didn't sink in my damaged brain until Thanos mentioned context.

[acute]

Atlantis was destroyed in an unclear war. 

[Abramelin]

23 hours ago, SHaYap said:

@Abramelin

Phoenicia, Carthage and the new world... 

[00.053:23]

~

 

Thanks SHaYap.

Carthage's Lost Warriors ~ Preview | Secrets of the Dead | PBS

Transcript here:

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/carthages-lost-warriors-about-this-episode/1118/

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Thanks SHaYap.

No worries... More updated details in PDF 

Quote

Academia.edu

https://www.academia.edu › Chacha...

Was America discovered in ancient times | Al Bell and Hans Giffhorn

 

Dr. Giffhorn was informed by local scientists that the research on the origins of the Chachapoya culture, extinct now for 500 years, had been stuck in a...

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[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

No worries... More updated details in PDF 

~

 

I already downloaded that paper.

However, the transcript I linked to in my former post appears more informative to me.

[Kane999]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

Well, the rainforests were savanna and it was colder and more arid.

 

I have time for one more comment before I have to work on the kitchen. By the way, do any of you guys have a remedy that will persuade a wife not to pour vegetable oil and rice down a kitchen sink drain? One has the problem that megafauna and forests/savanna/tundra environs form a feedback loop. How did losing the Megafauna effect the change from savanna to rainforest? Restoring the mammoth steppe is one of the stated goals of those pursuing de-extinction using advances in DNA technology. Bringing back the mammoth is among several scientists' top priorities. George Church being one of the leaders.

[Piney]

8 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

I have time for one more comment before I have to work on the kitchen. By the way, do any of you guys have a remedy that will persuade a wife not to pour vegetable oil and rice down a kitchen sink drain? One has the problem that megafauna and forests/savanna/tundra environs form a feedback loop. How did losing the Megafauna effect the change from savanna to rainforest? Restoring the mammoth steppe is one of the stated goals of those pursuing de-extinction using advances in DNA technology. Bringing back the mammoth is among several scientists' top priorities. George Church being one of the leaders.

I'm saying the opposite. The change affected the megafauna. 

I think as it became warm and wet diseases evolved and forests grew  affecting their health, hunting and defensive abilities and their food supplies. 

[cormac mac airt]

19 minutes ago, Kane999 said:

I have time for one more comment before I have to work on the kitchen. By the way, do any of you guys have a remedy that will persuade a wife not to pour vegetable oil and rice down a kitchen sink drain? One has the problem that megafauna and forests/savanna/tundra environs form a feedback loop. How did losing the Megafauna effect the change from savanna to rainforest? Restoring the mammoth steppe is one of the stated goals of those pursuing de-extinction using advances in DNA technology. Bringing back the mammoth is among several scientists' top priorities. George Church being one of the leaders.

Tell her she’s paying the plumbers bill when she stops it up. Either that or she’s snaking the drain. 
 

cormac

Edited October 22, 2022 by cormac mac airt

[Swede]

8 hours ago, Kane999 said:

Thanks for the links. I will read them when I have time. Though I have long disliked Martin's hypothesis, South American megafauna extinction puzzles me even more than the extinction in North America.

My pleasure. Yes, the South American events are quite interesting and may cast a fresh light on the effectiveness of the respective North and South American lithic technologies in regards to the extinction events. It is also worth noting the difference in the timing of the extinction events in South America as opposed to North America as they relate to the onset of the Antarctic Cold Reversal (ACR) (SA) and the onset of the Younger Dryas (YD) in North America.

Edit: In case someone does not have direct access to the original paper and some of the material referenced above:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350812448_Late_Pleistocene_South_American_megafaunal_extinctions_associated_with_rise_of_Fishtail_points_and_human_population

.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Swede