Jacob Rees-Mogg triggers alarm with Brexit plan for sparkling wine in plastic bottles

[So Far Away]

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Brexit is a failure. Nothing that the Tories promised has been delivered.

As I said, any emotionally detached, politically neutral, and reasonably educated observer could not think otherwise.

I guess that does not describe you.

How can Brexit be a failure when Brexit hasn't even been given the time to be allowed to succeed? We only left the transition period 18 months ago, during the middle of a global pandemic, and yet we're still the 5th largest economy on the entire planet, so we haven't "fallen off a cliff" like you Remoaners insisted we would do after our democratically mandated exit from the European Union have we?

https://globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/

Edited June 27, 2022 by So Far Away

[Duke Wellington]

1 hour ago, So Far Away said:

How can Brexit be a failure when Brexit hasn't even been given the time to be allowed to succeed? We only left the transition period 18 months ago, during the middle of a global pandemic, and yet we're still the 5th largest economy on the entire planet, so we haven't "fallen off a cliff" like you Remoaners insisted we would do after our democratically mandated exit from the European Union have we?

https://globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/

My advice is enjoy the sweet victory and success.

And each time one of these tare down Britain topics start then enjoy them, they are funny!!! I have pointed out on many of them how most of the posters so personally offended by an independent aren`t even British or living here.

They are projecting their Britain issues onto Brexit lol.

[Ozymandias]

8 hours ago, So Far Away said:

How can Brexit be a failure when Brexit hasn't even been given the time to be allowed to succeed?

Brexit is a failure - all metrics point to the harm it has done Britain. All countries suffered from Covid and Covid lockdown, all countries are experiencing high inflation and the effects of the Ukraine war, but the hit to the UK is worse than anywhere else - thanks to Brexit. 

8 hours ago, So Far Away said:

We only left the transition period 18 months ago, during the middle of a global pandemic, and yet we're still the 5th largest economy on the entire planet, so we haven't "fallen off a cliff" like you Remoaners insisted we would do after our democratically mandated exit from the European Union have we?

https://globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/

You might be the 5th economy in the world. So what? It does not insulate you from self-inflicted Brexit damage. Being 5th in the world does not stop you from being the sick man of Europe, does it? And why are you the sick man of Europe? Because Brexit has been a failure that has had a detrimental impact on you economy and is doing you unique damage that other countries are not experiencing.

And I know that forecasts are not cast in stone, but business people and financiers take them seriously when making decisions about their investments and assets, and the signs are that, aside from Russia, the struggling UK will perform worst of the G20 next year. Why? Brexit, of course! Will being 5th largest economy help you in any way? No. In fact, it looks more likely in the long term that you will slip down the GDP table as the inevitable result of your own weakening economic position and the increasing strength of others with higher current and projected growth rates.

But the big issue is who takes the pain while the UK struggles to keep up in adverse economic circumstances such as those imposed by Brexit. Certainly not the privileged self-serving elite who run the country, people like Johnson and Rees-Mogg. They use their power to feather their own nest and right now are blatantly future-proofing their influence and hold on the county's wealth at the expense of those who actually pay for their advantaged lifestyle. 

9 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

My advice is enjoy the sweet victory and success.

And each time one of these tare down Britain topics start then enjoy them, they are funny!!! I have pointed out on many of them how most of the posters so personally offended by an independent aren`t even British or living here.

I may live in Ireland but have a vested interest in these matters because they obviously impact my country and, to a lesser extent, my life. The argument that I have no right to comment about the UK on an international forum inviting contributions from members under the general heading of 'News, Politics and Current Affairs' and a sub-heading of 'UK and Europe' is frankly ridiculous.

9 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

They are projecting their Britain issues onto Brexit lol.

If anybody has been projecting their personal issues regarding other countries - Ireland, in particular - it is you and other Brexiteers. Ireland and Britain have had a very troubled history but in recent decades we had become good friends and allies who cooperated well together internationally. I have no doubt that the people who represented us and worked well together were genuine and well disposed towards each other during that period. Alas, some leopards never change their spots and that was never more evident than with the emergence of the Leave campaigners. The real attitude to Ireland of certain sections of British society and of Brexiteer posters to this forum is plain as day and never far from the surface. I will just leave you to think about that before you accuse me of projecting my issues onto Brexit.

[So Far Away]

28 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Brexit is a failure - all metrics point to the harm it has done Britain. All countries suffered from Covid and Covid lockdown, all countries are experiencing high inflation and the effects of the Ukraine war, but the hit to the UK is worse than anywhere else - thanks to Brexit. 

You might be the 5th economy in the world. So what? It does not insulate you from self-inflicted Brexit damage. Being 5th in the world does not stop you from being the sick man of Europe, does it? And why are you the sick man of Europe? Because Brexit has been a failure that has had a detrimental impact on you economy and is doing you unique damage that other countries are not experiencing.

And I know that forecasts are not cast in stone, but business people and financiers take them seriously when making decisions about their investments and assets, and the signs are that, aside from Russia, the struggling UK will perform worst of the G20 next year. Why? Brexit, of course! Will being 5th largest economy help you in any way? No. In fact, it looks more likely in the long term that you will slip down the GDP table as the inevitable result of your own weakening economic position and the increasing strength of others with higher current and projected growth rates.

But the big issue is who takes the pain while the UK struggles to keep up in adverse economic circumstances such as those imposed by Brexit. Certainly not the privileged self-serving elite who run the country, people like Johnson and Rees-Mogg. They use their power to feather their own nest and right now are blatantly future-proofing their influence and hold on the county's wealth at the expense of those who actually pay for their advantaged lifestyle. 

I may live in Ireland but have a vested interest in these matters because they obviously impact my country and, to a lesser extent, my life. The argument that I have no right to comment about the UK on an international forum inviting contributions from members under the general heading of 'News, Politics and Current Affairs' and a sub-heading of 'UK and Europe' is frankly ridiculous.

If anybody has been projecting their personal issues regarding other countries - Ireland, in particular - it is you and other Brexiteers. Ireland and Britain have had a very troubled history but in recent decades we had become good friends and allies who cooperated well together internationally. I have no doubt that the people who represented us and worked well together were genuine and well disposed towards each other during that period. Alas, some leopards never change their spots and that was never more evident than with the emergence of the Leave campaigners. The real attitude to Ireland of certain sections of British society and of Brexiteer posters to this forum is plain as day and never far from the surface. I will just leave you to think about that before you accuse me of projecting my issues onto Brexit.

Alright, let's do it your way then.

The whole structure of the political monstrosity more commonly known as the EU, how it works and its aims, was designed by Altiero Spinelli, one of the founding fathers of the EU and a former member of the Italian Communist Party, who the EU itself describes in their mini bio of him on their own website as being "an unrelenting federalist."

It was Spinelli who drew up the 'Draft Treaty Establishing the European Union', in which he set out the focus of his federalist vision of Europe.... which, amongst other things, included the ending of nation-states. The so-called 'Spinelli Plan' was adopted by the EU's fake Parliament with an overwhelming majority in February 1984, and provided the basis for the 'Single European Act' of 1986 and 'The Maastricht Treaty' of 1992, the Treaty that created the European Union.

The whole EU doctrine is to slowly dismantle the very concept of individual nations, so why do you want Ireland to be consumed into one large homogenised lump of European "states" ultimately answerable to a Politburo based in Brussels?

https://european-union.europa.eu/system/files/2021-07/eu-pioneers-altiero-spinelli_en.pdf

Edited June 27, 2022 by So Far Away

[Ozymandias]

30 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

Alright, let's do it your way then.

There is nothing 'my way' about this at all. I'm not talking about the EU, but about the failure of Brexit and Rees-Mogg's inability to come up with one credible benefit of Brexit. Despite having left the EU, you seem to be fixated on it. Good luck with that! It must be hard to take back control and still feel unhappy and unable to let go.

30 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

The whole structure of the political monstrosity more commonly known as the EU, how it works and its aims, was designed by Altiero Spinelli, one of the founding fathers of the EU and a former member of the Italian Communist Party, who the EU itself describes in their mini bio of him on their own website as being "an unrelenting federalist."

It was Spinelli who drew up the 'Draft Treaty Establishing the European Union', in which he set out the focus of his federalist vision of Europe.... which, amongst other things, included the ending of nation-states. The so-called 'Spinelli Plan' was adopted by the EU's fake Parliament with an overwhelming majority in February 1984, and provided the basis for the 'Single European Act' of 1986 and 'The Maastricht Treaty' of 1992, the Treaty that created the European Union.

The whole EU doctrine is to slowly dismantle the very concept of individual nations, so why do you want Ireland to be consumed into one large homogenised lump of European "states" ultimately answerable to a Politburo based in Brussels?

https://european-union.europa.eu/system/files/2021-07/eu-pioneers-altiero-spinelli_en.pdf

Ireland, like every other country in the EU (including the UK when it was a member) is a sovereign state. It cannot be dismantled by the EU without the democratic consent of the Irish people. We will only be integrated into Europe to the extent that the Irish electorate desire it.

'One homogenised lump'?!! People always move about, culturally and ethnically influence each other, and evolve. If that did not happen the United States would not exist today. It's a natural process that is unavoidable and inevitable. Europe has been composed of heterogenous peoples/nations/countries for thousands of years and despite these processes of flux and reflux is nowhere near becoming 'a homogenised lump'. Culture and ethnicity is a very difficult thing to destroy. It can be superficially changed to some extent, but runs too deep to be obliterated. 

Anyway, this is not the issue under discussion here.

Besides the good vibes that leaving gave to xenophobes who took back control, can you tell us all the material benefits of Brexit? I, and the vast majority of objective observers, fail to see that there are any at all! All we see are downsides. 

So what are they?

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ozymandias

[So Far Away]

46 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

There is nothing 'my way' about this at all. I'm not talking about the EU, but about the failure of Brexit and Rees-Mogg's inability to come up with one credible benefit of Brexit. Despite having left the EU, you seem to be fixated on it. Good luck with that! It must be hard to take back control and still feel unhappy and unable to let go.

Ireland, like every other country in the EU (including the UK when it was a member) is a sovereign state. It cannot be dismantled by the EU without the democratic consent of the Irish people. We will only be integrated into Europe to the extent that the Irish electorate desire it.

'One homogenised lump'?!! People always move about, culturally and ethnically influence each other, and evolve. If that did not happen the United States would not exist today. It's a natural process that is unavoidable and inevitable. Europe has been composed of heterogenous peoples/nations/countries for thousands of years and despite these processes of flux and reflux is nowhere near becoming 'a homogenised lump'. Culture and ethnicity is a very difficult thing to destroy. It can be superficially changed to some extent, but runs too deep to be obliterated. 

Anyway, this is not the issue under discussion here.

Besides the good vibes that leaving gave to xenophobes who took back control, can you tell us all the material benefits of Brexit? I, and the vast majority of objective observers, fail to see that there are any at all! All we see are downsides. 

So what are they?

Oh for God's sake. Not wanting to be a part of a European political union has got absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia, that's just an easy cop out for you Remoaners to arrogantly smear those you disagree with.

 

NewsFlash for you: You cannot be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union, because European Union law takes precedence over national laws whilst being a member. The primacy of European Union law is an EU law principle that when there is conflict between EU law and the law of Member States, EU law prevails and national laws have to be set aside. In effect, you have another political institution imposing its own political influence on a supposedly sovereign nation. Your national Parliament is therefore not the supreme legal authority in your own country.

 

In a statement issued on Friday 8th October 2021 after the ruling by the Polish Constitutional Tribunal that the Polish Constitution overrides EU law, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen reaffirmed the primacy of EU law, stating that, quote: "Our Treaties are very clear. All rulings by the European Court of Justice are binding on all Member States' authorities, including national courts. EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions. This is what all EU Member States have signed up to as members of the European Union. We will use all the powers that we have under the Treaties to ensure this."

 

Oh, and by the way, who set the precedent in EU case law that the EUCJ was superior to National Law?

Let me help you out on that one: It was the EU's Supreme Court itself.!!

That's right, not an elected Politician and certainly not the people, but the EU's own Supreme Court ruled that EU law was superior to national law. So much for the Remoaner lie that the UK never handed any of its sovereignty away to Brussels by being in the EU then.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_21_5163

Edited June 27, 2022 by So Far Away

[Ozymandias]

1 hour ago, So Far Away said:

Oh for God's sake. Not wanting to be a part of a European political union has got absolutely nothing to do with xenophobia, that's just an easy cop out for you Remoaners to arrogantly smear those you disagree with.

 

NewsFlash for you: You cannot be a sovereign nation whilst being a member of the European Union, because European Union law takes precedence over national laws whilst being a member. The primacy of European Union law is an EU law principle that when there is conflict between EU law and the law of Member States, EU law prevails and national laws have to be set aside. In effect, you have another political institution imposing its own political influence on a supposedly sovereign nation. Your national Parliament is therefore not the supreme legal authority in your own country.

 

In a statement issued on Friday 8th October 2021 after the ruling by the Polish Constitutional Tribunal that the Polish Constitution overrides EU law, the European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen reaffirmed the primacy of EU law, stating that, quote: "Our Treaties are very clear. All rulings by the European Court of Justice are binding on all Member States' authorities, including national courts. EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions. This is what all EU Member States have signed up to as members of the European Union. We will use all the powers that we have under the Treaties to ensure this."

 

Oh, and by the way, who set the precedent in EU case law that the EUCJ was superior to National Law?

Let me help you out on that one: It was the EU's Supreme Court itself.!!

That's right, not an elected Politician and certainly not the people, but the EU's own Supreme Court ruled that EU law was superior to national law. So much for the Remoaner lie that the UK never handed any of its sovereignty away to Brussels by being in the EU then.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_21_5163

You are ranting, erroneously and in ignorance, about the EU again despite repeated requests to stay on topic! 

The UK, like all current members of the European Union, remained a sovereign state when it was in the EU. The clue is in the quote you gave in your own last post:   

"Our Treaties are very clear. All rulings by the European Court of Justice are binding on all Member States' authorities, including national courts. EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions. This is what all EU Member States have signed up to as members of the European Union. We will use all the powers that we have under the Treaties to ensure this." (Ursula von der Leyen)

The key to all of this is the word 'treaty'. The UK always used its sovereignty (which resides in your parliament, not your people) to sign up to all EU treaties giving the European Court of Justice supremacy over national law. You agreed to that. Likewise, you used your sovereignty to repudiate those treaties and leave the European Union. All current members of the EU are equally sovereign to continue to agree to the treaties they signed or leave. Are you trying to argue that only the UK had the sovereignty to leave the EU? Any member can exercise its very real sovereignty to go or stay? That includes Poland. If it does not want to continue to give the European Court of Justice supremacy over its national law then it can leave.

All the points you make against the EU are false and betray an ignorance of the reality. There is no 'Supreme Court' in the EU, only the European Court of Justice, and it derives all of its powers solely from the treaties signed by individual EU members. It is composed of judges from every member country and it only acts, impartially and fairly, in the interests of the people of the EU member countries. It cannot do otherwise. Stop ranting about the EU and go and learn the facts.

So, what material benefits has Brexit had for the UK? 

PS - If you are not a xenophobe, I apologise for implying that you were. I agree that being a Brexiteer does not mean a person is xenophobic.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Ozymandias

[So Far Away]

54 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

You are ranting, erroneously and in ignorance, about the EU again despite repeated requests to stay on topic! 

The UK, like all current members of the European Union, remained a sovereign state when it was in the EU. The clue is in the quote you gave in your own last post:   

"Our Treaties are very clear. All rulings by the European Court of Justice are binding on all Member States' authorities, including national courts. EU law has primacy over national law, including constitutional provisions. This is what all EU Member States have signed up to as members of the European Union. We will use all the powers that we have under the Treaties to ensure this." (Ursula von der Leyen)

The key to all of this is the word 'treaty'. The UK always used its sovereignty (which resides in your parliament, not your people) to sign up to all EU treaties giving the European Court of Justice supremacy over national law. You agreed to that. Likewise, you used your sovereignty to repudiate those treaties and leave the European Union. All current members of the EU are equally sovereign to continue to agree to the treaties they signed or leave. Are you trying to argue that only the UK had the sovereignty to leave the EU? Any member can exercise its very real sovereignty to go or stay? That includes Poland. If it does not want to continue to give the European Court of Justice supremacy over its national law then it can leave.

All the points you make against the EU are false and betray an ignorance of the reality. There is no 'Supreme Court' in the EU, only the European Court of Justice, and it derives all of its powers solely from the treaties signed by individual EU members. It is composed of judges from every member country and it only acts, impartially and fairly, in the interests of the people of the people of the EU member countries. It cannot do otherwise. Stop ranting about the EU and go and learn the facts.

So, what material benefits has Brexit had for the UK? 

PS - If you are not a xenophobe, I apologise for implying that you were. I agree that being a Brexiteer does not mean a person is xenophobic.

You just don't stop do you? Haven't you realised yet that you are not talking to some "xenophobic knuckle-dragging little-Englander" here? I actually know my stuff, so stop arrogantly telling me to go and learn the facts, because I have all the facts about anything and everything to do with the EU to hand.

In the UK it's the PEOPLE that are sovereign, NOT Parliament. Our democracy is unique, in that the people hold power over these islands, NOT Parliament. MP's in Parliament are employed by us, the PEOPLE, to do what we instruct them to do, so Parliament is only sovereign by our good grace, they are loaned our sovereignty for a set period of time, we then take it back via our General Elections (or the reason we have General Elections) because it is the people who hold the power, and it is they who decide via the vote who they want to represent their interests, so it is the People that are sovereign, we just lend our sovereignty to Parliament, and then we take it back when there is a General Election.

What you are doing is mistaking the two issues of National Sovereignty and Parliamentary Sovereignty, which are often confused. You can share National Sovereignty, as we do in NATO, the United Nations and all sorts of other organisations, but Parliamentary Sovereignty is an absolute: either Parliament can legislate as it wishes, or it cannot legislate as it wishes. It is not a matter of degree. It is something you either have or you have not.

You may find this lecture from Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor relevant to the discussion. Have a look at the video that is in the link below, which confirms EXACTLY what I have said. Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor CBE, FRSA, FBA is a British political scientist and historian who is currently research professor at the 'Institute for Contemporary British History' at King's College London and professor of politics at the New College of the Humanities. He is also emeritus professor of politics and government at the University of Oxford and an emeritus fellow of Brasenose College, Oxford. He is one of Britain's foremost constitutional experts and has written extensively on political and constitutional issues, so I would say that it's a pretty safe bet that this guy certainly knows exactly what he is talking about, wouldn't you? The relevant part can be found at around 14m 12s.

https://youtu.be/BijWSNYPSn8?t=852

Edited June 27, 2022 by So Far Away

[Duke Wellington]

4 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Brexit is a failure - all metrics point to the harm it has done Britain. All countries suffered from Covid and Covid lockdown, all countries are experiencing high inflation and the effects of the Ukraine war, but the hit to the UK is worse than anywhere else - thanks to Brexit. 

You might be the 5th economy in the world. So what? It does not insulate you from self-inflicted Brexit damage. Being 5th in the world does not stop you from being the sick man of Europe, does it? And why are you the sick man of Europe? Because Brexit has been a failure that has had a detrimental impact on you economy and is doing you unique damage that other countries are not experiencing.

If anybody has been projecting their personal issues regarding other countries - Ireland, in particular - it is you and other Brexiteers. Ireland and Britain have had a very troubled history but in recent decades we had become good friends and allies who cooperated well together internationally. I have no doubt that the people who represented us and worked well together were genuine and well disposed towards each other during that period. Alas, some leopards never change their spots and that was never more evident than with the emergence of the Leave campaigners. The real attitude to Ireland of certain sections of British society and of Brexiteer posters to this forum is plain as day and never far from the surface. I will just leave you to think about that before you accuse me of projecting my issues onto Brexit.

This confuses me, the relentless wrong claims, and how you are completely convinced they are real. I think the quantum physicists should pay you a visit because by examining you they might be able to prove the existence of parallel universes or extra dimensions. Here is my first bit of evidence, its world GDPs Q4 2021:

So how is the UK the sick man of Europe? Now my next piece of evidence is Q1 2022:

So compared to the average EU GDP growth in Q4 2021 we were 0.1% behind and in Q1 2022 we were 0.31% ahead. Look at Japan, Italy, and the Franco-Prussians. Look at the G7. So where is this evidence that we are the sick man of Europe? I can only imagine its been pushed off down some different multiverse reality.

[Duke Wellington]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Ireland, like every other country in the EU (including the UK when it was a member) is a sovereign state. It cannot be dismantled by the EU without the democratic consent of the Irish people. We will only be integrated into Europe to the extent that the Irish electorate desire it.

Ah, I see, I will remind the quantum physicists to also investigate you for evidence that the past can be changed.

Because I`m pretty sure Ireland rejected the EU, but then they ignored the will of the people with the Lisbon Treaty, and signed you up anyway.

[Ozymandias]

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

You just don't stop do you? Haven't you realised yet that you are not talking to some "xenophobic knuckle-dragging little-Englander" here? I actually know my stuff, so stop arrogantly telling me to go and learn the facts, because I have all the facts about anything and everything to do with the EU to hand.

What do you mean I don’t stop?! I just want you to stay on topic and tell me the benefits of Brexit. I’ve asked you three times already, but you prefer to rant about the EU instead. And, no, I haven’t yet realised that you know your stuff! You haven’t given me any evidence that you do. Quite the opposite. You have made erroneous statements about the EU and demonstrated your ignorance of it. I am sorry if my pointing that out upsets you.    

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

In the UK it's the PEOPLE that are sovereign, NOT Parliament. Our democracy is unique, in that the people hold power over these islands, NOT Parliament. MP's in Parliament are employed by us, the PEOPLE, to do what we instruct them to do, so Parliament is only sovereign by our good grace, they are loaned our sovereignty for a set period of time, we then take it back via our General Elections (or the reason we have General Elections) because it is the people who hold the power, and it is they who decide via the vote who they want to represent their interests, so it is the People that are sovereign, we just lend our sovereignty to Parliament, and then we take it back when there is a General Election.

You appear very confused to me. The UK is an example of parliamentary sovereignty. National sovereignty does not lie with the people of Britain but with its parliament. That was the whole point of what Bogdanor was saying in the link you gave. Bogdanor is on record as pointing out that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty central to the UK’s constitution precludes any concept that sovereignty lies with the people whose will must be determined first. In your video link Bogdanor quotes Hugh Gaitskell who claimed that Britain could never maintain its parliamentary sovereignty with a European Parliament. It is the very fact that your parliament is sovereign, and it alone, that poses such a problem for the UK in Europe

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

What you are doing is mistaking the two issues of National Sovereignty and Parliamentary Sovereignty, which are often confused. You can share National Sovereignty, as we do in NATO, the United Nations and all sorts of other organisations, but Parliamentary Sovereignty is an absolute: either Parliament can legislate as it wishes, or it cannot legislate as it wishes. It is not a matter of degree. It is something you either have or you have not.

This is further evidence of your confusion. Who is sovereign in the UK? Parliament or the people? It cannot be both. As you say, parliamentary sovereignty is an absolute: either parliament legislates as it wishes, or it does not. Parliament can diminish or take away your right to protest in public, it can guarantee or renege on your human and civil rights, it can modify your democracy for good or ill, etc. The proof of the pudding is that the people of the UK were only ever consulted by referendum on Europe twice, 1975 and 2016. Every other time that sovereign decisions were taken regarding treaties on Europe, it was done by parliament alone.

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

You may find this lecture from Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor relevant to the discussion. Have a look at the video that is in the link below, which confirms EXACTLY what I have said. Professor Vernon Bernard Bogdanor CBE, FRSA, FBA is a British political scientist and historian who is currently research professor at the 'Institute for Contemporary British History' at King's College London and professor of politics at the New College of the Humanities. He is also emeritus professor of politics and government at the University of Oxford and an emeritus fellow of Brasenose College, Oxford. He is one of Britain's foremost constitutional experts and has written extensively on political and constitutional issues, so I would say that it's a pretty safe bet that this guy certainly knows exactly what he is talking about, wouldn't you? The relevant part can be found at around 14m 12s.

https://youtu.be/BijWSNYPSn8?t=852

I didn’t know that Vernon Bogdanor was ‘The Oracle’ on sovereignty – whether national, parliamentary, or otherwise. Does the EU know that? If everybody understood that Bogdanor was the last word on these matters there would be no issue. Unfortunately, he isn’t!

Any chance you could tell what the material benefits of Brexit are for the UK?

[So Far Away]

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

What do you mean I don’t stop?! I just want you to stay on topic and tell me the benefits of Brexit. I’ve asked you three times already, but you prefer to rant about the EU instead. And, no, I haven’t yet realised that you know your stuff! You haven’t given me any evidence that you do. Quite the opposite. You have made erroneous statements about the EU and demonstrated your ignorance of it. I am sorry if my pointing that out upsets you.    

You appear very confused to me. The UK is an example of parliamentary sovereignty. National sovereignty does not lie with the people of Britain but with its parliament. That was the whole point of what Bogdanor was saying in the link you gave. Bogdanor is on record as pointing out that the principle of parliamentary sovereignty central to the UK’s constitution precludes any concept that sovereignty lies with the people whose will must be determined first. In your video link Bogdanor quotes Hugh Gaitskell who claimed that Britain could never maintain its parliamentary sovereignty with a European Parliament. It is the very fact that your parliament is sovereign, and it alone, that poses such a problem for the UK in Europe

This is further evidence of your confusion. Who is sovereign in the UK? Parliament or the people? It cannot be both. As you say, parliamentary sovereignty is an absolute: either parliament legislates as it wishes, or it does not. Parliament can diminish or take away your right to protest in public, it can guarantee or renege on your human and civil rights, it can modify your democracy for good or ill, etc. The proof of the pudding is that the people of the UK were only ever consulted by referendum on Europe twice, 1975 and 2016. Every other time that sovereign decisions were taken regarding treaties on Europe, it was done by parliament alone.

I didn’t know that Vernon Bogdanor was ‘The Oracle’ on sovereignty – whether national, parliamentary, or otherwise. Does the EU know that? If everybody understood that Bogdanor was the last word on these matters there would be no issue. Unfortunately, he isn’t!

Any chance you could tell what the material benefits of Brexit are for the UK?

Why does there even need to be any benefits of Brexit anyway, why can't I just be "allowed" to make a free choice to Leave a European political union that nobody voted to join in the first place without being interrogated by someone who disagrees with my democratic decision about what "benefits" my choice may or may not entail?

I didn't vote for Brexit for "benefits", I voted to Leave the EU because I do not want to be a part of a European political union that has been imposed on us through stealth without our consent, it's as simple as that.

We'll have the exact same benefits as every other non-EU country on the planet, many of whom seem to be able to manage perfectly fine without having to be politically shackled to a Politburo based in Brussels. For instance we can:

1. Decide for ourselves our own trade policy, and tailor it to suit our own individual needs rather than having to please 27 other players as well.

2. Have any Tariffs raised on non-EU imported goods (that the British consumer ultimately pays for) paid into the UK Treasury instead of Brussels, which used to rake in 80% of what was collected by Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs (HMRC). According to official Government figures, HMRC collected £3.4 billion in customs duties in 2017 - 2018 alone, 80% of which was then sent straight to Brussels.

3. Save some £10bn a year membership fees (probably closer to £15bn now to cover the EU's Covid bailout fund if you'd had your way and we were still shackled to that crumbling political union folly).

4. No more £150 million wasted on EU elections, where we elect MEPs who have virtually no power at all into the EUs fake Parliament.

5. Have the ability to move quickly and adapt to world events, as has clearly shown with the UK's new defence pact with Australia and the US, whilst the lumbering EU whined about not being "consulted" and Micron started throwing his toys out of the pram because of his own country's inadequacies.

6. Avoid further political integration.

7. Avoid any contingent liability for the failure of the Euro.

8. For British business to be able to thrive and compete again and not be hamstrung by an EU regime that designs its laws to deliberately make British business less competitive (only 9% of British Business does any trade with the EU, and the other 91% that never do any trade with the EU whatsoever are forced to comply to the draconian laws and regulations that are deliberately imposed to make the 91% less competitive in the world market).

Even the EU itself thinks we will be better off outside of the EU, because the only reason the EU is insisting that the UK stays on a close level playing field is so that the UK doesn't gain a competitive advantage over the EU. This just shows that the EU is admitting that their own rules prevent nations from actually being competitive, which rather makes a mockery of you Remoaners insistence that the UK couldn't possibly compete with the EU doesn't it, because if the UK cannot possibly compete with the EU, then why are they making such a big issue out of it anyway? So obviously it is better to be out of the EU.

Edited June 27, 2022 by So Far Away

[Nutrition Fact]

Aye, its me gals sparkle.