Poll of polls show Brits have officially turned against Brexit

[Ozymandias]

51 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

You can carry on dissecting this one single vote forever, (why anybody does is a total mystery to me) and you can speculate what would have happened "if" all you want, but ultimately, it makes zero difference, because the reason why the UK left the EU was because more people across the whole of the UK voted to Leave the EU than voted to Remain in the EU, it's as simple as that.

The Brexit Vote was the perfect demonstration that in the UK it was "one person, one vote" - the total vote applied - not individual regions, counties, constituencies, streets... or devolved nations. It was the UK *as a whole.*

Nobody is, or has, ever argued otherwise and neither was Dorling. Seems his point sailed over your head. 

You like arguing, don't you! 

[Ozymandias]

53 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

No it didn't. The Leave vote won by 1,269,501 votes over Remain.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7639/

I phrased that badly in my haste to post. The Leave side won by obtaining 51.89% of the vote cast. My figure of 634,612 is equivalent to the 1.89% (above 50%), that is, 1.89% of the total vote cast of 33, 577,342. If that number vote Remain the referendum would have been a tie.  

Edited July 1, 2022 by Ozymandias

[So Far Away]

2 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

I phrased that badly in my haste to post. The Leave side won by obtaining 51.89% of the vote cast. My figure of 634,612 is equivalent to the 1.89% (above 50%), that is, 1.89% of the total vote cast of 33, 577,342. If that number vote Remain the referendum would have been a tie.  

Yes, you did phrase it badly, and you also phrased the above response just as badly, because of course if the same amount of people had voted equally for Remain then obviously it would have been a tie. That goes for any 2-choice vote. Who'd have thought. But I really don't get your point, because Leave still won by a 3.8% margin.

[So Far Away]

27 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

Nobody is, or has, ever argued otherwise and neither was Dorling. Seems his point sailed over your head. 

You like arguing, don't you! 

No, I just don't see the point of dissecting this one particular vote time after time forevermore. The vote was 6 years ago.

[Ozymandias]

37 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

No, I just don't see the point of dissecting this one particular vote time after time forevermore. The vote was 6 years ago.

The vote is what it is, and will ever remain so. No argument.

Dorling's point was that commentators began to point to the so-called shift in 'Red Wall' voters when, in fact, the effect of their vote was always going to be outweighed by the number of Leave voters in the south of England alone. 

As a history buff, I am interested in what made the people of the UK choose its current path and the answer to that question is not solely a matter of current affairs, but has an historical dimension that must be understood. 

[So Far Away]

14 minutes ago, Ozymandias said:

As a history buff, I am interested in what made the people of the UK choose its current path and the answer to that question is not solely a matter of current affairs, but has an historical dimension that must be understood.

I don't see why it "must" be understood, but if you want my historical take on why the people of the UK voted the way they did, it was because they were never even asked whether they even wanted to be a part of this European political union in the first place.

Did we get a vote when John Major took it upon himself to sign The Maastricht Treaty (the foundation of the EU) in 1992, which took the UK from a trading bloc (the EEC/EC) into a political union (the EU)?

Did we get a vote when Gordon Brown took it upon himself to sign The Lisbon Treaty in 2007, despite Labour's 2005 manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on the new European Union Reform Treaty (Treaty of Lisbon)?

No, we didnt, so political union has been imposed on us through stealth without our consent.

The EEC was just a trading bloc, nothing more. I didnt have a problem with a trading bloc, but once Maastricht and then Lisbon came along to create and then bolster a European political union my support ceased. I would never accept that willingly. I didn't agree with it.

When we were finally given a chance to vote directly on the matter, nearly 25 years after Maastricht, is it any wonder that those of us who've been dragged, unwillingly, into this unwanted political union voted to get out?

Edited July 1, 2022 by So Far Away

[Setton]

16 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Yes, but in your scenario you have an equal amount of younger voters as older voters, whereas we already know that most of the older age group tend to vote anyway regardless, whilst a lot more of the younger age group tend not to bother voting at all, so in your ridiculous bag of marbles scenario the younger age group (and therefore their vote) is being heavily over represented, so you need to reduce the amount of younger voters, because in reality, even though you have already preassigned the bag with the most blue marbles in it to young people, many of them simply wouldn't even bother turning up for the draw to pick a marble out of the bag in the first place. Again, this is an actual fact, so maybe a bit beyond you

Right, I'm done. Going to have to chalk this up to trolling. Nobody capable of turning on a computer is actually this dim.

[Ozymandias]

3 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

I don't see why it "must" be understood, but if you want my historical take on why the people of the UK voted the way they did, it was because they were never even asked whether they even wanted to be a part of this European political union in the first place.

Of course it must be understood! People always ask 'why' because they want to understand. And if it is as simple as 'we weren't asked so we want out', then the EU is not to blame, but your own system of parliamentary sovereignty and your elitist rulers.

3 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

Did we get a vote when John Major took it upon himself to sign The Maastricht Treaty (the foundation of the EU) in 1992, which took the UK from a trading bloc (the EEC/EC) into a political union (the EU)?

Did we get a vote when Gordon Brown took it upon himself to sign The Lisbon Treaty in 2007, despite Labour's 2005 manifesto pledge to hold a referendum on the new European Union Reform Treaty (Treaty of Lisbon)?

No, we didnt, so political union has been imposed on us through stealth without our consent.

Again, this was not the fault of the EU. Parliament does not have to ask the people of the UK what they think and even when it does determine the will of the people through a referendum, the results are not legally or constitutionally binding, only advisory. 

3 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

The EEC was just a trading bloc, nothing more. I didnt have a problem with a trading bloc, but once Maastricht and then Lisbon came along to create and then bolster a European political union my support ceased. I would never accept that willingly. I didn't agree with it.

When we were finally given a chance to vote directly on the matter, nearly 25 years after Maastricht, is it any wonder that those of us who've been dragged, unwillingly, into this unwanted political union voted to get out?

Not surprising at all. So why do die-hard Brexiteers continue to support the current regime who are hell bent on further limiting your say in future decisions of national importance? Instead of supporting and abetting them, you should be out on the streets demanding better representation and seeking to make these privileged elites more accountable to the people and wanting a more equitable society. Instead, you rail against the EU when the system and establishment with which you are saddled quietly gets away with the exploitation of the decent people of Britain for their own aggrandisement. Looks to me like the wealth, the power, and the country is in their back pocket and enough of the people have been manipulated into voting to be their turkeys for Brexit Christmas.

[So Far Away]

1 minute ago, Setton said:

Nobody capable of turning on a computer is actually this dim.

Well clearly you are, because in your ridiculous bag of marbles scenario the marbles apparently represent voters, but it's already been established that older people tend to vote whilst younger people generally tend not to bother, so clealry there are going to be less younger voters to begin with, but yet each bag still contains a total of 12 marbles.

[So Far Away]

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

Of course it must be understood! People always ask 'why' because they want to understand.

Wrong. People always ask 'why' because they're nosey sods who just don't want to accept that someone has a different viewpoint to their own about their beloved EU. Tell me something, do you normally have a habit of always grilling other people about why they voted the way they did in every other vote that has ever taken place in the past, or is it just this one particular vote you feel you have the God given right to interrogate people just because you disagree with their own personal democratic choice? Is that how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (oops sorry, I meant the EU) deals with dissenters who dare to voice opposition to them then?

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

And if it is as simple as 'we weren't asked so we want out', then the EU is not to blame

Errrm, where did I even say the EU was to blame? Ahhh yes, that's right, I didn't.

1 hour ago, Ozymandias said:

Again, this was not the fault of the EU.

Again, where did I even say that it was the fault of the EU? Ahhh yes, that's right, I didn't.

As for the rest of your waffle, just what is so wrong with just wanting to be the same as the other 170 or so non-EU countries on the rest of the planet, many of whom seem to be able to manage perfectly fine without having to be politically shackled to a Politburo based in Brussels? It may come as a bit of a shock to you but not everyone is like you and wants to see their country slowly consumed into one large homogonised lump of European "states" ultimately answerable to Brussels. You might want that for your own country, and I respect that, but 17.4 million UK voters certainly don't want it for the UK, so why can't you at least show a little bit of respect for our choice, instead of trying to mockingly demean it by ranting on about turkeys and Brexit Christmas?

Edited July 1, 2022 by So Far Away

[Ozymandias]

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Wrong. People always ask 'why' because they're nosey sods who just don't want to accept that someone has a different viewpoint to their own about their beloved EU.

Do not confuse the nosiness of people who want to pry into other peoples' personal business with the nosiness of historians trying to understand and explain the past. I have absolutely no interest in your personal viewpoint or opinion. This is not a personal issue, so stop trying to make it one. It is true I have no respect for Brexiteers as a species and, no doubt, that comes over in my posts, but my only interest is to understand how the UK could have voted for Brexit and let Brexiteers (who never believed they would win the 2016 Referendum) manoeuvre them into Brexit.

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Tell me something, do you normally have a habit of always grilling other people about why they voted the way they did in every other vote that has ever taken place in the past, or is it just this one particular vote you feel you have the God given right to interrogate people just because you disagree with their own personal democratic choice?

Like I said, I have no interest in how you or any other individual voted and do not grill anybody about their democratic choices. I mean, some people used to vote for Screaming Lord Sutch and the Monster Raving Looney Party and that, of course, was their right in a healthy democracy. No, what fascinates me is that so many people in Britain - enough of them, anyway - ignored the advice of experts and voted for Brexit and the subsequent damage it would do, and has done, to the UK. I don't agree that you should have done but it really is puzzling on many levels. That is my personal view and I don't expect people to agree with me, but can we discuss it here without dragging personality into it. 

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Is that how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (oops sorry, I meant the EU) deals with dissenters who dare to voice opposition to them then?

The less said about that comment the better.

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Errrm, where did I even say the EU was to blame? Ahhh yes, that's right, I didn't.

Again, where did I even say that it was the fault of the EU? Ahhh yes, that's right, I didn't.

You did not say it explicitly but the implication is clear. In Post #56 you said: 'political union has been imposed on us through stealth without our consent...is it any wonder that those of us who've been dragged, unwillingly, into this unwanted political union voted to get out?' If not the EU, then who do you blame for dragging you unwillingly and by stealth into an unwanted European union?

2 hours ago, So Far Away said:

As for the rest of your waffle, just what is so wrong with just wanting to be the same as the other 170 or so non-EU countries on the rest of the planet, many of whom seem to be able to manage perfectly fine without having to be politically shackled to a Politburo based in Brussels? It may come as a bit of a shock to you but not everyone is like you and wants to see their country slowly consumed into one large homogonised lump of European "states" ultimately answerable to Brussels. You might want that for your own country, and I respect that, but 17.4 million UK voters certainly don't want it for the UK, so why can't you at least show a little bit of respect for our choice, instead of trying to mockingly demean it by ranting on about turkeys and Brexit Christmas?

Well, I'm sorry, but I cannot pretend to think otherwise. How can people in Britain - I mean Brexiteers - continue to support Brexit and this awful government who got it done. I can allow that many were duped into being supportive beforehand, but they continue even now when the reality of Brexit and the calibre of Johnson and his government is known. The damage done to your economy and to your standing in the world is evident even to a blind man. Maybe, like Rees-Mogg, for example, you and many Brexiteers are not affected by any of it, but the brunt of the negative outfall from Brexit will be carried well into the future by millions of UK men and women who initially voted for it. Happily, it seems that many have woken up to the reality and regret their vote. However, I can only think of those who blindly persist in championing Brexit and the Conservatives as turkeys voting for Christmas and I cannot see them in any other way.

[So Far Away]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

I have absolutely no interest in your personal viewpoint or opinion. This is not a personal issue, so stop trying to make it one. It is true I have no respect for Brexiteers as a species and, no doubt, that comes over in my posts, but my only interest is to understand how the UK could have voted for Brexit and let Brexiteers (who never believed they would win the 2016 Referendum) manoeuvre them into Brexit.

You said above that you wanted to understand 'why', I've tried my best to explain 'why' I voted the way I did, but yet you instantly dismiss it because you then decide you've no interest in 'why' I voted the way I did, which tells me you don't want to understand 'why' at all, you just want to use this forum to vent your spleen at someone you disagree with, so yes, it is a personal issue, so stop trying to make out that it isn't.

This is further confirmed when you say you have no respect for Brexiteers as a species. So you have no respect for democracy, anyone who has a different opinion to you, and also no respect for human beings either, because guess what, the only species Brexiteers are is human, you know, just like YOU. So like I said, is that how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (oops sorry, I meant the EU) deals with dissenters who dare to voice opposition to them then?

I always knew we would win the 2016 referendum, so I don't even know where you've got that nonsene from, probably from the RemoanStream media who were constantly telling us all for months leading up to the vote that Leave had no chance of winning in a 24/7 barrage of Remain bias news items, but, unlike you, I have my finger on the pulse of the real feeling in the UK, and I KNEW 'Leave' would win.

Even the Remain campaign themselves knew Leave would win. They even resorted to roping in a serving US President (Obama) to try and bully us into changing our minds, which, laughably, actually had the opposite effect, because whilst opinion polls before his blatantly Number 10 Downing Street written "back of the queue" speech showed it to be a fairly even split, as soon as Obama poked his nose in, Leave took a significant lead over Remain in the polls, so if you really do actually want to understand 'why' we voted for Brexit (which I highly doubt by the way), then look no further than the Remain campaign itself, because they spent all their time telling us how bad it would be if we leave the EU, they never spelt out what the future would be like if the UK had stayed in. They obviously had nothing positive to say about the EU, hence Project Fear.

If the EU was such a good idea, they'd be trying to sell it to us, they wouldn't be bullying and threatening anyone who doesn't like it. If you were trying to sell your car or your house, wouldn't you be highlighting the positive aspects of it to the potential buyer, instead of threatening them with how bad things would get for them if they didn't buy it? Equally, would you be stupid enough to buy off someone if they were threatening all the ills of the world would befall you if you didn't buy what they were selling? Of course not - so the reason 'why' Remain lost was because of their own sides negative campaign.!!

As for the rest of your waffle, I didn't even bother to read it, because as soon as I read your admittance to having zero respect for democracy I stopped reading, so you wasted your time typing it, and seeing as you couldn't care less about my opinion or viewpoint even though you "claim" to want to understand 'why' (which you obviously don't), then this will be my last word to you on this particular thread, so don't even bother replying, because I will just ignore it, like you've ignored my opinion and viewpoint.

Edited July 1, 2022 by So Far Away

[OpenMindedSceptic]

On 6/28/2022 at 3:00 PM, The Silver Shroud said:

And 38% think it was right to Leave. Considerably less than the 52% who thought it a good idea in 2016. Still, the main point is that pro-EU sentiment is growing. Given that the over-65's made up the majority of Brexiters, we should expect to rejoin at some time in the future, probably it will take 10 years. The main difficulty would be to persuade the EU to accept us back- Johnson's government is breaking international rules and laws at an alarming rate and trashing our global reputation. We can regain that thought, with the Tories gone at the next GE.

Europe wouldn't miss a beat in trying to get the UK back.

Can anyone stomach the slow glacial pace, the noses in the trough, the asset theft from Med to Germany and France, the sleeping at the wheel of failong to arm Ukraine fast enough or the continued purchasing of energy from  Russia by Germany?

Awful trading bloc.

 

[OpenMindedSceptic]

3 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Do not confuse the nosiness of people who want to pry into other peoples' personal business with the nosiness of historians trying to understand and explain the past. I have absolutely no interest in your personal viewpoint or opinion. This is not a personal issue, so stop trying to make it one. It is true I have no respect for Brexiteers as a species and, no doubt, that comes over in my posts, but my only interest is to understand how the UK could have voted for Brexit and let Brexiteers (who never believed they would win the 2016 Referendum) manoeuvre them into Brexit.

Like I said, I have no interest in how you or any other individual voted and do not grill anybody about their democratic choices. I mean, some people used to vote for Screaming Lord Sutch and the Monster Raving Looney Party and that, of course, was their right in a healthy democracy. No, what fascinates me is that so many people in Britain - enough of them, anyway - ignored the advice of experts and voted for Brexit and the subsequent damage it would do, and has done, to the UK. I don't agree that you should have done but it really is puzzling on many levels. That is my personal view and I don't expect people to agree with me, but can we discuss it here without dragging personality into it. 

The less said about that comment the better.

You did not say it explicitly but the implication is clear. In Post #56 you said: 'political union has been imposed on us through stealth without our consent...is it any wonder that those of us who've been dragged, unwillingly, into this unwanted political union voted to get out?' If not the EU, then who do you blame for dragging you unwillingly and by stealth into an unwanted European union?

Well, I'm sorry, but I cannot pretend to think otherwise. How can people in Britain - I mean Brexiteers - continue to support Brexit and this awful government who got it done. I can allow that many were duped into being supportive beforehand, but they continue even now when the reality of Brexit and the calibre of Johnson and his government is known. The damage done to your economy and to your standing in the world is evident even to a blind man. Maybe, like Rees-Mogg, for example, you and many Brexiteers are not affected by any of it, but the brunt of the negative outfall from Brexit will be carried well into the future by millions of UK men and women who initially voted for it. Happily, it seems that many have woken up to the reality and regret their vote. However, I can only think of those who blindly persist in championing Brexit and the Conservatives as turkeys voting for Christmas and I cannot see them in any other way.

It was obvious to most that UK would vote to leave. Only remoaners thought otherwise but that's because they never listen to the argument from the other side or play school playground politics where they think they've won with a few remarks while not addressing the issues. 

[Ozymandias]

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

You said above that you wanted to understand 'why', I've tried my best to explain 'why' I voted the way I did, but yet you instantly dismiss it because you then decide you've no interest in 'why' I voted the way I did, which tells me you don't want to understand 'why' at all, you just want to use this forum to vent your spleen at someone you disagree with, so yes, it is a personal issue, so stop trying to make out that it isn't.

You conflate the wider issue of 33 million people voting for Brexit with your own personal decision to vote Leave. That is no use to me. No researcher wanting to understand why the UK chose to inflict so much damage on itself despite expert advice to the contrary would accept one man's personal reasons for doing so as an explanation for all. You have said (Post #56) that the reason you voted for Brexit was that you were never asked your view but were dragged unwillingly and by stealth into an unwanted European union. It is a bit narcissistic of you, and very simplistic, to think that all 33 million of Leave voters thought the same as you and that you can speak for them. 

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

This is further confirmed when you say you have no respect for Brexiteers as a species. So you have no respect for democracy, anyone who has a different opinion to you, and also no respect for human beings either, because guess what, the only species Brexiteers are is human, you know, just like YOU. So like I said, is that how the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (oops sorry, I meant the EU) deals with dissenters who dare to voice opposition to them then?

That is a non sequitur! I vote in democratic elections and referenda all the time. I always find myself voting against others of different opinions to me. They, like me, have every right to cast their vote as they choose. Opinions are only as good as the knowledge of those who express them. Every mother's son knows that and will normally always listen to the views of an expert over those of an ignoramus. I will always respect the right of someone to be ignorant, but I quickly draw the line when ignorance (often for self-serving reasons) wants to drown out the knowledgeable. I have no respect for uninformed opinion and, in my view, those who voted for Brexit showed a distinct lack of understanding, or care for the cost, of what it was they were voting for. Did all of the 33 million people who voted Leave say to themselves: 'yes, we know that the experts say this will do damage to our economy and, yes, we know that our standards of living will drop, but we don't care, we just want to be a third country trading independently outside the EU, on WTO rules if necessary, like 170 other countries around the world; we didn't ask to be part of a European dictatorship, so we want out whatever the cost'. I think there was more to it than that. At the end of the day, the creation a free-trading European Single Market needed some elements of political union and the pooling of sovereignty, but all members of the EU were, and remain, sovereign and any limited sovereignty they agreed to hand over to the EU is always recoverable.

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

I always knew we would win the 2016 referendum, so I don't even know where you've got that nonsene from, probably from the RemoanStream media who were constantly telling us all for months leading up to the vote that Leave had no chance of winning in a 24/7 barrage of Remain bias news items, but, unlike you, I have my finger on the pulse of the real feeling in the UK, and I KNEW 'Leave' would win.

Bully for you! Boris didn't. Farage didn't. Cummings didn't. The Leave campaign didn't! Many current opportunists in your Brexit government didn't. In fact, they were Remain campaigners because, being opportunists, they thought their political career lay with a UK in the EU. They only switched horses after the Leave Campaign's surprise win. 

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Even the Remain campaign themselves knew Leave would win. They even resorted to roping in a serving US President (Obama) to try and bully us into changing our minds, which, laughably, actually had the opposite effect, because whilst opinion polls before his blatantly Number 10 Downing Street written "back of the queue" speech showed it to be a fairly even split, as soon as Obama poked his nose in, Leave took a significant lead over Remain in the polls, so if you really do actually want to understand 'why' we voted for Brexit (which I highly doubt by the way), then look no further than the Remain campaign itself, because they spent all their time telling us how bad it would be if we leave the EU, they never spelt out what the future would be like if the UK had stayed in. They obviously had nothing positive to say about the EU, hence Project Fear.

Like many others, Obama only tried to tell the people of the UK what the reality of Brexit would be regarding a trade agreement with the USA. He was absolutely correct. Even with a pro-Brexit president of the USA like Trump, Brexit Britain went to the back of the queue. It remains there to this day. When will Brexiteers learn these realities? Obama was your friend, not your enemy. And as regards the Remain Campaign being unable to make a positive case for staying in the EU, the people of the UK were already living the good life of membership but were too beguiled and enamoured of Leave promises to understand that. Hoards of them were duped, despite the Remain Campaign's so-called 'Project Fear', into believing in Brexit unicorns and sunny uploads. How sad and disappointing for them to find themselves living the current reality and regretting their folly. Not a day goes by but one or other of them is interviewed on TV.   

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

If the EU was such a good idea, they'd be trying to sell it to us, they wouldn't be bullying and threatening anyone who doesn't like it. If you were trying to sell your car or your house, wouldn't you be highlighting the positive aspects of it to the potential buyer, instead of threatening them with how bad things would get for them if they didn't buy it? Equally, would you be stupid enough to buy off someone if they were threatening all the ills of the world would befall you if you didn't buy what they were selling? Of course not - so the reason 'why' Remain lost was because of their own sides negative campaign.!!

It would appear that the only way you will learn how good the EU actually is, is in the loss of its benefits, something many tried to point out before the referendum. Your analogy with buying a car is rather lame and off the mark. The people of the UK were not being asked to 'buy' into membership of the EU, they already had it. In car sales terms, they were being asked to see the downside of selling the car they owned. On the other hand, the thing they did not own - Brexit - was sold to them in positive unicron-and-sunny-uplands terms by the Arthur Dalys of the Leave Campaign. 

12 hours ago, So Far Away said:

As for the rest of your waffle, I didn't even bother to read it, because as soon as I read your admittance to having zero respect for democracy I stopped reading, so you wasted your time typing it, and seeing as you couldn't care less about my opinion or viewpoint even though you "claim" to want to understand 'why' (which you obviously don't), then this will be my last word to you on this particular thread, so don't even bother replying, because I will just ignore it, like you've ignored my opinion and viewpoint.

I never admitted to having zero respect for democracy. That is your misguided and self-serving interpretation of my position in order to fuel and justify your argument against me. I think I have made my attitude to democracy, etc, pretty clear. As to not bothering to reply to your post, that is not an option for me. You may want to stomp off the pitch in high dudgeon, but the issue is still in play and it is not your prerogative to call an end to it.

I will continue and note with satisfaction that the polls (always to be taken with caution) do show that many former Leavers have turned against Brexit because they realise they were sold a pig in a poke and it is my hope that the sensible people of the UK will re-establish their control of its affairs and work to repair the damage it has suffered in the future. However, I note that the Conservatives are doing their damnedest to see that that never happens and that they will continue to hold the wealth and power of the country in their hands to the detriment of its people. 

[So Far Away]

5 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

You conflate the wider issue of 33 million people voting for Brexit with your own personal decision to vote Leave. That is no use to me. No researcher wanting to understand why the UK chose to inflict so much damage on itself despite expert advice to the contrary would accept one man's personal reasons for doing so as an explanation for all. You have said (Post #56) that the reason you voted for Brexit was that you were never asked your view but were dragged unwillingly and by stealth into an unwanted European union. It is a bit narcissistic of you, and very simplistic, to think that all 33 million of Leave voters thought the same as you and that you can speak for them. 

That is a non sequitur! I vote in democratic elections and referenda all the time. I always find myself voting against others of different opinions to me. They, like me, have every right to cast their vote as they choose. Opinions are only as good as the knowledge of those who express them. Every mother's son knows that and will normally always listen to the views of an expert over those of an ignoramus. I will always respect the right of someone to be ignorant, but I quickly draw the line when ignorance (often for self-serving reasons) wants to drown out the knowledgeable. I have no respect for uninformed opinion and, in my view, those who voted for Brexit showed a distinct lack of understanding, or care for the cost, of what it was they were voting for. Did all of the 33 million people who voted Leave say to themselves: 'yes, we know that the experts say this will do damage to our economy and, yes, we know that our standards of living will drop, but we don't care, we just want to be a third country trading independently outside the EU, on WTO rules if necessary, like 170 other countries around the world; we didn't ask to be part of a European dictatorship, so we want out whatever the cost'. I think there was more to it than that. At the end of the day, the creation a free-trading European Single Market needed some elements of political union and the pooling of sovereignty, but all members of the EU were, and remain, sovereign and any limited sovereignty they agreed to hand over to the EU is always recoverable.

Bully for you! Boris didn't. Farage didn't. Cummings didn't. The Leave campaign didn't! Many current opportunists in your Brexit government didn't. In fact, they were Remain campaigners because, being opportunists, they thought their political career lay with a UK in the EU. They only switched horses after the Leave Campaign's surprise win. 

Like many others, Obama only tried to tell the people of the UK what the reality of Brexit would be regarding a trade agreement with the USA. He was absolutely correct. Even with a pro-Brexit president of the USA like Trump, Brexit Britain went to the back of the queue. It remains there to this day. When will Brexiteers learn these realities? Obama was your friend, not your enemy. And as regards the Remain Campaign being unable to make a positive case for staying in the EU, the people of the UK were already living the good life of membership but were too beguiled and enamoured of Leave promises to understand that. Hoards of them were duped, despite the Remain Campaign's so-called 'Project Fear', into believing in Brexit unicorns and sunny uploads. How sad and disappointing for them to find themselves living the current reality and regretting their folly. Not a day goes by but one or other of them is interviewed on TV.   

It would appear that the only way you will learn how good the EU actually is, is in the loss of its benefits, something many tried to point out before the referendum. Your analogy with buying a car is rather lame and off the mark. The people of the UK were not being asked to 'buy' into membership of the EU, they already had it. In car sales terms, they were being asked to see the downside of selling the car they owned. On the other hand, the thing they did not own - Brexit - was sold to them in positive unicron-and-sunny-uplands terms by the Arthur Dalys of the Leave Campaign. 

I never admitted to having zero respect for democracy. That is your misguided and self-serving interpretation of my position in order to fuel and justify your argument against me. I think I have made my attitude to democracy, etc, pretty clear. As to not bothering to reply to your post, that is not an option for me. You may want to stomp off the pitch in high dudgeon, but the issue is still in play and it is not your prerogative to call an end to it.

I will continue and note with satisfaction that the polls (always to be taken with caution) do show that many former Leavers have turned against Brexit because they realise they were sold a pig in a poke and it is my hope that the sensible people of the UK will re-establish their control of its affairs and work to repair the damage it has suffered in the future. However, I note that the Conservatives are doing their damnedest to see that that never happens and that they will continue to hold the wealth and power of the country in their hands to the detriment of its people. 

You remoaners are always trying to dissect the simple question of 'why' we voted the way we did. It cannot be broken down rationally in your minds and that's what gets up your noses.

Let me tell you something, you will never understand 'why', because for one, you'd have to accept something totally irrational in your mind. Firstly, the EU isn't the be all and end all, and secondly, you don't understand the British psyche, and never will, because you are not willing to listen, and just instantly dismiss anything anyone tells you that doesn't compute in your mind. 

Your own post/s reveals the answer you're looking for. Us British do not like being arrogantly talked down to, like you have repeatedly done to me. You haven't once shown me the respect of talking to me on the same level as you, you have talked down to me in a sneeringly arrogant manner as if I'm something nasty you stepped in whilst walking down the street. The more we get arrogantly talked down to and lectured, the more determined we are to do the exact opposite of what we're told, which is why all the negative nonsense spewed out by the Remoaner campaign did not work.

This isn't unique to the Brexit referendum either, this has gone on throughout history... it's in our DNA. How many times throughout history have us British stood alone and still been proven right? Brexit is no different, and hateful, intolerant people like you can never accept anything that disagrees with you, and all you remoaners want to do is ignore 17.4m people, to impose your will onto others in a sneering "I'm superior to you", arrogant way. So you can analyse and ask 'why' all you want, but you will never understand 'why', because you need to be able to understand the unique British resolve to even be able to understand 'why', and by default your own nasty sneering arrogance will not let you.

And what "benefits" of EU membership? There weren't any. The "benefits" of paying billions of pounds of taxpayers money to a Politburo in Brussels just so that we can buy more stuff from them than they buy from us, whilst all the while they mockingly nicknamed us 'Treasure Island' behind our backs? The "benefits" of paying billions of pounds of taxpayers money to a Politburo in Brussels just for them to decide for us who we can have trade deals with, whilst many other countries in the EU have the exact same "benefits" but they actually get paid to be in the EU - those "benefits" you mean?

It may come as a bit of a shock to you but the EU isn't the only game in town you know. The UK’s average GDP growth rate in the years 1949 to 1972 (pre-EEC/EU) was 3.3% per annum. But in the years 1973 to 2020 (since joining the EEC/EU) it has dropped to just 2.2% per annum. (Source: ONS)

That’s in line with the collapse in the EU’s share of the global economy. The EU’s share of global GDP in 1980 was almost 30%. But as more countries have joined, since then it has almost halved, down to 17% by 2020. For the EU27, (ie excluding the UK) it would be just 14.8%. It will soon fall to 13%, then 12%, and then sub 10%. The process is unstoppable. As the IMF has already said: "90% of future global growth will happen outside Europe's borders." (Source: IMF)

You lot portray the UK as some insignificant little backwater that cannot possibly survive without the EU, but even the EU itself thinks we will be better off outside of the EU, because the only reason the EU is insisting that the UK stays on a close level playing field is so that the UK doesn't gain a competitive advantage over the EU. This just shows that the EU is admitting that their own rules prevent nations from actually being competitive, which rather makes a mockery of you Remoaners insistence that the UK couldn't possibly compete with the EU doesn't it, because if the UK cannot possibly compete with the EU, then why are they making such a big issue out of it anyway? So obviously it is better to be out of the EU then.

But despite all that, you think we should continue paying vast sums of taxpayers money to help prop up this failed, corrupt, centralising, one-size-fits-all, over-regulated, anti-competitive, innovation-destroying, low-growth, anti-democratic throwback to the 1950s, whilst the rest of the world outside of your insular, inward looking EU bubble continues to grow? Jeez, you Remoaners are so deluded it’s not even funny any more.!!

Edited July 2, 2022 by So Far Away

[Ozymandias]

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

You remoaners are always trying to dissect the simple question of 'why' we voted the way we did. It cannot be broken down rationally in your minds and that's what gets up your noses.

I'm not a Remoaner. I'm Irish and an outsider looking in at the UK and the damage it has inflicted upon itself. Like you, to judge from the tenure of your posts, I am not emotionally invested in Brexit (although I have family relations in Britain who come down on both sides of the fence). My personal interest is only in the damage Brexit may do to my country and, as a history buff, I am also fascinated to understand why enough voters in the UK were persuaded that Brexit was the way to go when it was so obvious it was going to be the wrong choice. So long as Brexit has no appreciable impact on Ireland I could really care less how it affects the UK. It's a two-way street when the UK and its Brexiteer government and supporters are shoving two fingers up to the EU (and Ireland). I am fortunate in that no matter what way the ball hops, I am well insulated from any possible adverse effects it may cause Ireland. 

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Let me tell you something, you will never understand 'why', because for one, you'd have to accept something totally irrational in your mind. Firstly, the EU isn't the be all and end all, and secondly, you don't understand the British psyche, and never will, because you are not willing to listen, and just instantly dismiss anything anyone tells you that doesn't compute in your mind. 

Well, isn't that what everyone does, including you. Am I at fault because my mind will not entertain arguments with which I cannot agree? Do you routinely accept ideas that your brain rejects?!

I'd be the first to say that the EU is not perfect. Only a fool would make a claim like that about Europe. There is much that needs to be done to improve the EU. Equally, how would you characterise someone who claims that the EU is controlled by a politburo?

I have my own views on why 52% of the UK electorate (that turned out) voted for Brexit and they are generally in line with Danny Dorling's. It was not the British psyche that was at play, but English nationalism, English exceptionalism, and a general ignorance of Europe among those who voted, people reared on decades of media lies about the EU written by charlatans like Boris Johnson. It is hard for a people, long after history has ceased to provide them with the advantages that  gave them an empire, to settle for being just another cog in the European machine, particularly when they are culturally indoctrinated to continue to think of themselves as exceptional when everybody else has caught up. In such circumstances nostagia for the past - Make Britain Great Again - is very beguiling and the cultural and economic impact of immigration is resented. Those English who consider themselves left behind in terms of prosperity and job opportunities and those English who are emotionally invested in the Rule Britannia of the past will readily take the first chance they get to remedy the situation. They were easily convinced that immigration, the customs union, the single market and EU red-tape were the culprits and the 2016 Referendum was a godsend.   

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Your own post/s reveals the answer you're looking for. Us British do not like being arrogantly talked down to, like you have repeatedly done to me. You haven't once shown me the respect of talking to me on the same level as you, you have talked down to me in a sneeringly arrogant manner as if I'm something nasty you stepped in whilst walking down the street. The more we get arrogantly talked down to and lectured, the more determined we are to do the exact opposite of what we're told, which is why all the negative nonsense spewed out by the Remoaner campaign did not work.

I know. it's generally called 'British exceptionalism', although I would be more specific and say it is actually more English. What is it that entitles English people to arrogate to themselves the notion that they are better than others on planet earth? Respect is given where respect is shown. You started the disrespect by implying I was a 'nosey sod' and that my comments were 'waffle' and you have been talking down and dismissively to people on this forum yourself, so people in glasshouses, etc.    

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

This isn't unique to the Brexit referendum either, this has gone on throughout history... it's in our DNA.

Quite untrue! Another example of English exceptionalism. Your DNA is virtually the same as everyone else's.

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

How many times throughout history have us British stood alone and still been proven right?

More exceptionalism! What do you mean you stood alone? And how were you proven right?

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

Brexit is no different, and hateful, intolerant people like you can never accept anything that disagrees with you, and all you remoaners want to do is ignore 17.4m people, to impose your will onto others in a sneering "I'm superior to you", arrogant way. So you can analyse and ask 'why' all you want, but you will never understand 'why', because you need to be able to understand the unique British resolve to even be able to understand 'why', and by default your own nasty sneering arrogance will not let you.

That puts me in my place! And even more exceptionalism.

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

And what "benefits" of EU membership? There weren't any. The "benefits" of paying billions of pounds of taxpayers money to a Politburo in Brussels just so that we can buy more stuff from them than they buy from us, whilst all the while they mockingly nicknamed us 'Treasure Island' behind our backs? The "benefits" of paying billions of pounds of taxpayers money to a Politburo in Brussels just for them to decide for us who we can have trade deals with, whilst many other countries in the EU have the exact same "benefits" but they actually get paid to be in the EU - those "benefits" you mean?

So, you think that 17 million people in the UK know that there are no benefits to being in the European Union whereas the nearly 450 million people of its 27 countries don't? Yet even more exceptionalism! There is no end to it.

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

It may come as a bit of a shock to you but the EU isn't the only game in town you know.

Why on earth would you think that shocks me? It's obvious!

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

The UK’s average GDP growth rate in the years 1949 to 1972 (pre-EEC/EU) was 3.3% per annum. But in the years 1973 to 2020 (since joining the EEC/EU) it has dropped to just 2.2% per annum. (Source: ONS)

GDP growth in the UK since WWII has been a roller-coaster of up and down, positive and negative, without any obvious single factor being the cause. Averaging it either side of 1973 when the UK joined the EEC/EU and implying (as I think you are) that the difference is solely due to membership of the block is too simplistic. UK GDP growth and contraction see-sawed wildly over the years, for example, being -12.5% contraction in 1958, 4.3% growth in 1963 and 1979, and the -9.4% crash through the floor in 2021. Was the EU responsible for all of that? Last year UK GDP growth was a record since WWII, being a whopping 7.5%, but that was due to the bounce back from the Covid pandemic restrictions. And even though that was not good enough to get you back up out of the hole you fell into the previous year, some Brexiteers are attributing that record rate of growth to Brexit! Since 1966, the EU's GDP has increased 18 times and its GDP per capita 15 times. It has only ever experienced negative growth on four occasions (1975, 1993, 2009 and 2020). The UK on the other hand, has struggled in the post-colonial period to match the growth performance of its competitors and other advanced industrialised countries of the west. It has had the lowest productivity rates of many and has stagnated since the credit crisis of 2008. (World Bank)

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

That’s in line with the collapse in the EU’s share of the global economy. The EU’s share of global GDP in 1980 was almost 30%. But as more countries have joined, since then it has almost halved, down to 17% by 2020. For the EU27, (ie excluding the UK) it would be just 14.8%. It will soon fall to 13%, then 12%, and then sub 10%. The process is unstoppable. As the IMF has already said: "90% of future global growth will happen outside Europe's borders." (Source: IMF)

World GDP has been steadily growing outside of Europe and America for decades and the trend has accelerated in recent times. The decline in Europe's share of the world's wealth is obvious in such circumstances. It doesn't mean Europe's wealth is declining, only that the rest of the world is creating more wealth than ever before, places like China and India, for example. 

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

You lot portray the UK as some insignificant little backwater that cannot possibly survive without the EU, but even the EU itself thinks we will be better off outside of the EU, because the only reason the EU is insisting that the UK stays on a close level playing field is so that the UK doesn't gain a competitive advantage over the EU. This just shows that the EU is admitting that their own rules prevent nations from actually being competitive, which rather makes a mockery of you Remoaners insistence that the UK couldn't possibly compete with the EU doesn't it, because if the UK cannot possibly compete with the EU, then why are they making such a big issue out of it anyway? So obviously it is better to be out of the EU then.

No. The only reason the EU insists that the UK maintain standards and closely align itself with Europe is if the UK wants to continue to trade into the Single Market. The UK will not be allowed to trade into Europe once it deviates from EU standards, i.e. tires to give itself a competitive advantage over those traders within the Single Markey who are sticking to the rules. EU rules do not prevent nations from being competitive, they make a level playing field for those nations wanting to be a part of the Single Market.

15 hours ago, So Far Away said:

But despite all that, you think we should continue paying vast sums of taxpayers money to help prop up this failed, corrupt, centralising, one-size-fits-all, over-regulated, anti-competitive, innovation-destroying, low-growth, anti-democratic throwback to the 1950s, whilst the rest of the world outside of your insular, inward looking EU bubble continues to grow? Jeez, you Remoaners are so deluded it’s not even funny any more.!!

No. The taxpayers of the remaining 27 countries will pay the money to ensure the continued success of the EU. The UK has left and I have never said that I think that the UK should continue paying into Europe (other than what it is honour bound to pay under its remaining contractual obligations).

The £350 million the Leave Campaign claimed was paid by the UK to the EU on a weekly basis was a blatant exaggeration of the facts and has been thoroughly, thoroughly debunked. When you deduct the rebate of £96million negotiated by Thatcher and the £114 million paid by the EU directly into the UK in the form of subsidies etc to farmers etc, the actual amount reduces by 60% to less than 140 million per week. If memory serves, I recall that Boris Johnson thought this money would be a 'fine thing' to be paid to the NHS instead yet the Conservatives later put up taxes to fund social care and squandered billions on useless PPE contracts, lining its party cronies pockets in the process! Go figure?!

[So Far Away]

2 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

the Conservatives later put up taxes to fund social care and squandered billions on useless PPE contracts, lining its party cronies pockets in the process!

I couldn't even be bothered to read all that drivel, because you just confirmed exactly what I've already said in my previous post, that you claim to want to know 'why', but refuse to listen when you're told 'why'. I will repeat. Again, if you really want to know why, then take a good long look in the mirror and take note of the sneeringly arrogant "I know better than you" face that's staring back at you, and you have your answer. WE DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT'S BETTER FOR US THAN WE OURSELVES DO, TALKING DOWN TO US. Have you got that?

But if you arrogantly think your beloved the EU is whiter than white, then let's talk about how your beloved EU itself also squandered billions on useless PPE contracts after giving their mates billions for kit that was not up to scratch instead shall we you bloody hypocrite, before you start ripping my country to shreds for doing exactly the same thing. Here, read this, from an investigation by the 'euobserver' publication, headlined "Billions of euros, millions of faulty masks, and no answers" https://euobserver.com/health-and-society/149898

Edited July 3, 2022 by So Far Away

[Duke Wellington]

10 minutes ago, So Far Away said:

I couldn't even be bothered to read all that drivel, because you just confirmed exactly I said in my previous post, that you claim to want to know 'why', but refuse to listen when you're told 'why'. I will repeat, again, if you really want to know why, then take a good long look in the mirror and take note of the sneeringly arrogant "I know better than you" face that's staring back at you, and you have your answer. WE DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT'S BETTER FOR US THAN WE OURSELVES DO, TALKING DOWN TO US. Have you got that?

But if you arrogantly think your beloved the EU is whiter than white, then let's talk about how the EU also squandered billions on useless PPE contracts after giving their mates billions for kit that was not up to scratch instead shall we, before you start ripping my country to shreds for doing exactly the same thing you bloody hypocrite. Here, read this, from an investigation by the 'euobserver' publication, headlined "Billions of euros, millions of faulty masks, and no answers" https://euobserver.com/health-and-society/149898

Ever asked yourself why him and most of the others here who are so obsessed with reversing Brexit, who are so obsessed they still haven`t gotten over us leaving yet despite it being a few years now, are so obsessed despite not being British or even living here? Its funny.

We could start 101 topics right now on everything from who should own the Falkland Islands to Gibraltar, or what is better socialism or capitalism, to should the British Monarchy be kept or replaced, and I kid you not you can successfully guess all of their answers.

Lets see them for what they are - Britain Bashers.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Cookie Monster

[So Far Away]

7 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

I have my own views on why 52% of the UK electorate (that turned out) voted for Brexit and they are generally in line with Danny Dorling's. It was not the British psyche that was at play, but English nationalism

The EU itself is nationalistic, awarding itself the symbols of a Country (its own President (or five), its own (fake) Parliament, it's own Supreme Court, with jurisdiction over all member "States" Courts, its own Flag, its own Anthem, its own Currency, Outer Borders/Open Borders, and now, seemingly, its own Armed Forces) - All totally contrived, but designed to pull a false sense of allegiance in our minds.

It has even told those of us who were gullible enough to even listen to them that we were now its so-called "Citizens", despite not even being a Country, and, as we saw during Nigel's barnstorming farewell speech in the EU's fake Parliament, demands that member "States" transfer all Patriotism towards the EU instead of their own lands.

It may come as a bit of a shock to you but not everyone wants to see their country consumed into one large homogenised lump of European "states" ultimately answerable to a bunch of unaccountable out of touch bureaucrats based in Brussels that we can never remove from office at the Ballot Box if we don't like any of their policies because they will never even stand for election in the first place.

7 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

It is hard for a people, long after history has ceased to provide them with the advantages that  gave them an empire, to settle for being just another cog in the European machine, particularly when they are culturally indoctrinated to continue to think of themselves as exceptional when everybody else has caught up.

You obviously think Empires are a bad idea, but yet here you are, defending a European Empire. You arrogantly brand 17.4 million people as having some sort of misty-eyed nostalgia for a bygone British Empire (I don't by the way), but yet you also condemn them for voting to Leave an ever expanding European Empire. And you can't see the irony.!!

Edited July 4, 2022 by So Far Away

[So Far Away]

8 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

So, you think that 17 million people in the UK know that there are no benefits to being in the European Union whereas the nearly 450 million people of its 27 countries don't? Yet even more exceptionalism! There is no end to it.

And how many of those 450 million people have even been asked directly whether they actually wanted to be a part of this European political "project"? Nobody has, because the only country to even have the stones to ask its citizens whether they wanted to be in the EU was the UK, and they rejected it.

Even Micron has admitted that if France were to hold a referendum on EU membership the people of France would also vote to Leave the EU as well, so have a guess what the people of France aren't going to get any time soon?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/21/emmanuel-macron-uk-yes-no-brexit-vote-mistake

I'll tell you what is exceptionalism though, automatically arrogantly assuming that 450 million people who have never even been asked directly about EU membership that they are actually happy with EU membership.!!

Edited July 4, 2022 by So Far Away

[So Far Away]

10 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

No. The only reason the EU insists that the UK maintain standards and closely align itself with Europe is if the UK wants to continue to trade into the Single Market. The UK will not be allowed to trade into Europe once it deviates from EU standards, i.e. tires to give itself a competitive advantage over those traders within the Single Markey who are sticking to the rules.

Of course the UK has to maintain EU standards if it wants to trade into the EU, that's the same the world over, you have to comply with whatever standards of the market you are selling into, the same goes the other way, the EU would have to maintain UK's standards should they change going forward if an EU country wanted to sell into the UK market, or do you arrogantly think that when it comes to the EU selling into the UK market the EU should get a free pass?

An EU vassal would also have to comply with the standards of any other market on the planet if it wants to sell its goods into their market, the US market for instance, but that doesn't stop Germany from selling their Audi's, BMW's and Mercedes into the US market does it, and it also doesn't automatically mean that the USA has to stay on a close level playing field with the EU either does it?

The EU is all about protectionism of their own markets. They are totally against free market trading because they know damned well that the rest of the world can undercut them in almost every type of situation. The EU know this and it terrifies them as the UK will be able to trade more cheaply than they can. We will flourish whereas they are already stagnating, or, in a lot of cases, they are falling far behind.

That is because so many of their industries cannot manufacture things cheaper than the non-EU countries, and, when the EU imports things from these non-EU countries, they have huge import tariffs on them so that their own industries are not losing out, keeping prices high. The UK can strike better deals with these countries with lower, or even zero, tariff rates that are beneficial to both countries, thereby undercutting the EU. The EU is a middle man, nothing more, and we do not need it.

Edited July 4, 2022 by So Far Away

[OpenMindedSceptic]

On 7/1/2022 at 4:36 PM, Ozymandias said:

Of course it must be understood! People always ask 'why' because they want to understand. And if it is as simple as 'we weren't asked so we want out', then the EU is not to blame, but your own system of parliamentary sovereignty and your elitist rulers.

Again, this was not the fault of the EU. Parliament does not have to ask the people of the UK what they think and even when it does determine the will of the people through a referendum, the results are not legally or constitutionally binding, only advisory. 

Not surprising at all. So why do die-hard Brexiteers continue to support the current regime who are hell bent on further limiting your say in future decisions of national importance? Instead of supporting and abetting them, you should be out on the streets demanding better representation and seeking to make these privileged elites more accountable to the people and wanting a more equitable society. Instead, you rail against the EU when the system and establishment with which you are saddled quietly gets away with the exploitation of the decent people of Britain for their own aggrandisement. Looks to me like the wealth, the power, and the country is in their back pocket and enough of the people have been manipulated into voting to be their turkeys for Brexit Christmas.

Nobody needs to go to the streets. 

If you feel like brexit was wrong then you need to find a better solution.

Over half the votes said leave because the current option is awful, beauraucratic, slow moving, pension grabbing individuals trying to just their place on the gravy train.

You seem to think leavers want to go back to it.

Time and time again, elections don't win because they think mud slinging at the other side wins. It is why Labour rarely get voted into power. I'm really you need to stand for something and bot against something. And you also need so something new, not back to the same old same old with rose tinted glasses on. 

Incidentally, the snide remarks from media that occurred through to the vote just emboldened voters to vote leave. Same with social media. 

[Ozymandias]

13 hours ago, So Far Away said:

I couldn't even be bothered to read all that drivel, because you just confirmed exactly what I've already said in my previous post, that you claim to want to know 'why', but refuse to listen when you're told 'why'. I will repeat. Again, if you really want to know why, then take a good long look in the mirror and take note of the sneeringly arrogant "I know better than you" face that's staring back at you, and you have your answer. WE DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE LIKE YOU, WHO THINK THEY KNOW WHAT'S BETTER FOR US THAN WE OURSELVES DO, TALKING DOWN TO US. Have you got that?

Look, you are taking this way too personally. I think Britain made a mistake in choosing Brexit. That is my view and, like millions of non-UK citizens around the world who might agree with me, I am entitled to my opinion and I have argued my reasons for holding it. Expressing that view is not telling you that I know better than you, it is merely expressing my view, a view that you obviously don't like and all of the evidence I put forward in support of my argument you completely ignore. It is not my fault you don't like it and it is not my fault that you don't like 'people like me'. If everyone did as you do - screaming in bolded capital letters - then all debate may as well cease. And now I politely and quietly ask; have you got that.

13 hours ago, So Far Away said:

But if you arrogantly think your beloved the EU is whiter than white, then let's talk about how your beloved EU itself also squandered billions on useless PPE contracts after giving their mates billions for kit that was not up to scratch instead shall we you bloody hypocrite, before you start ripping my country to shreds for doing exactly the same thing. Here, read this, from an investigation by the 'euobserver' publication, headlined "Billions of euros, millions of faulty masks, and no answers" https://euobserver.com/health-and-society/149898

My beloved EU is not perfect, as I have repeatedly said on this forum and in this thread, but you wilfully ignore that fact.

[So Far Away]

16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

The UK on the other hand, has struggled in the post-colonial period to match the growth performance of its competitors and other advanced industrialised countries of the west. It has had the lowest productivity rates of many and has stagnated since the credit crisis of 2008. (World Bank)

So much for the "benefits" of EU membership then. Thanks for confirming exactly what I've been saying, this whole EU "Project" has not worked for the UK. The EU has held us back.

16 hours ago, Ozymandias said:

Quite untrue! Another example of English exceptionalism. Your DNA is virtually the same as everyone else's.

But yet in post #61 you said, quote: "I have no respect for Brexiteers as a species" - so which is it?

Edited July 4, 2022 by So Far Away