Biblical inerrancy

[Doug1066]

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

Before we start, let us put this in scientific terms which distinguish between “error,” which is built into the measuring system and “mistake” which is a human-induced deviation from truth.  A tall man reads a temperature gauge low because he looks downward past the hand to the dial.  He does this every time without thinking about it, so when his readings are averaged they are inherently low.  A short man reads the gauge high and produces an average biased to the high side.  This is “error,” an inaccuracy built into the system by the heights of the two men, or the heights of the platform on which they stand.  It is nobody’s fault; it just is.

Mistakes are created by inverting two digits, like reading “29” and writing “92” on the form.  Oklahoma Weather Bulletins from the early 1900s have many arithmetic mistakes created by inadvertently switching lines in the middle of data entry.  These, while unintentional, render data difficult or impossible to use.

Another concept we need is “evidence.”  Evidence must bear directly on the question being addressed:  Is there a god?  Yes Or No.  And it must be clear enough that unbiased observers from opposite sides of the issue can agree on its meaning.

For the question of biblical inerrancy, our evidence is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) itself.

Joshua 15:33-36

³³ And in the valley, Eshtaol, and Zoreah, and Ashnah,

³⁴ And Zanoah, and Engannim, Tappuah, and Enam,

³⁵ Jarmuth, and Adullam, Socoh, and Azekah,

³⁶ And Sharaim, and Adithaim, and Gederah, and Gederothaim; fourteen cities with their villages:

 

There are fifteen cities listed, but verse 15:36 says there are 14.  This is a simple counting mistake.

 

Joshua 15:48-51

⁴⁸ And in the mountains, Shamir, and Jattir, and Socoh,

⁴⁹ And Dannah, and Kirjathsannah, which is Debir,

⁵⁰ And Anab, and Eshtemoh, and Anim,

⁵¹ And Goshen, and Holon, and Giloh; eleven cities with their villages:

 

There are 12 cities listed, but verse 15:51 says there are 11.

 

 

But the author of Joshua isn’t done yet.

Joshua 15:23-32

²³ And Kedesh, and Hazor, and Ithnan,

²⁴ Ziph, and Telem, and Bealoth,

²⁵ And Hazor, Hadattah, and Kerioth, and Hezron, which is Hazor,

²⁶ Amam, and Shema, and Moladah,

²⁷ And Hazargaddah, and Heshmon, and Bethpalet,

²⁸ And Hazarshual, and Beersheba, and Bizjothjah,

²⁹ Baalah, and Iim, and Azem,

³⁰ And Eltolad, and Chesil, and Hormah,

³¹ And Ziklag, and Madmannah, and Sansannah,

³² And Lebaoth, and Shilhim, and Ain, and Rimmon: all the cities are twenty and nine, with their villages:

 

There are 31 cities listed (Hazor/Hezron is listed twice.), but verse 15:32 says there are 29.

These are three counting mistakes, admittedly trivial, but they serve to prove that the Bible contains mistakes.  If the Bible contains mistakes, it can’t be inerrant; hence inerrancy is disproven.  QED.

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

Before we start, let us put this in scientific terms which distinguish between “error,” which is built into the measuring system and “mistake” which is a human-induced deviation from truth.  A tall man reads a temperature gauge low because he looks downward past the hand to the dial.  He does this every time without thinking about it, so when his readings are averaged they are inherently low.  A short man reads the gauge high and produces an average biased to the high side.  This is “error,” an inaccuracy built into the system by the heights of the two men, or the heights of the platform on which they stand.  It is nobody’s fault; it just is.

Mistakes are created by inverting two digits, like reading “29” and writing “92” on the form.  Oklahoma Weather Bulletins from the early 1900s have many arithmetic mistakes created by inadvertently switching lines in the middle of data entry.  These, while unintentional, render data difficult or impossible to use.

Another concept we need is “evidence.”  Evidence must bear directly on the question being addressed:  Is there a god?  Yes Or No.  And it must be clear enough that unbiased observers from opposite sides of the issue can agree on its meaning.

For the question of biblical inerrancy, our evidence is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) itself.

Joshua 15:33-36

³³ And in the valley, Eshtaol, and Zoreah, and Ashnah,

³⁴ And Zanoah, and Engannim, Tappuah, and Enam,

³⁵ Jarmuth, and Adullam, Socoh, and Azekah,

³⁶ And Sharaim, and Adithaim, and Gederah, and Gederothaim; fourteen cities with their villages:

 

There are fifteen cities listed, but verse 15:36 says there are 14.  This is a simple counting mistake.

 

Joshua 15:48-51

⁴⁸ And in the mountains, Shamir, and Jattir, and Socoh,

⁴⁹ And Dannah, and Kirjathsannah, which is Debir,

⁵⁰ And Anab, and Eshtemoh, and Anim,

⁵¹ And Goshen, and Holon, and Giloh; eleven cities with their villages:

 

There are 12 cities listed, but verse 15:51 says there are 11.

 

 

But the author of Joshua isn’t done yet.

Joshua 15:23-32

²³ And Kedesh, and Hazor, and Ithnan,

²⁴ Ziph, and Telem, and Bealoth,

²⁵ And Hazor, Hadattah, and Kerioth, and Hezron, which is Hazor,

²⁶ Amam, and Shema, and Moladah,

²⁷ And Hazargaddah, and Heshmon, and Bethpalet,

²⁸ And Hazarshual, and Beersheba, and Bizjothjah,

²⁹ Baalah, and Iim, and Azem,

³⁰ And Eltolad, and Chesil, and Hormah,

³¹ And Ziklag, and Madmannah, and Sansannah,

³² And Lebaoth, and Shilhim, and Ain, and Rimmon: all the cities are twenty and nine, with their villages:

 

There are 31 cities listed (Hazor/Hezron is listed twice.), but verse 15:32 says there are 29.

These are three counting mistakes, admittedly trivial, but they serve to prove that the Bible contains mistakes.  If the Bible contains mistakes, it can’t be inerrant; hence inerrancy is disproven.  QED.

Unless some of those are “villages” and not “cities” since all those quotes say “cities, with their villages”. 
 

cormac

[+Desertrat56]

13 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

Considering that the bible used in the current days is not "the Word of God" but a compilation of different texts from other holy books as well as made up texts, it is not inerrant, it is a fabrication and the nit picking about numbers of cities mentioned and counting is irrelevant to the fact that it is erroneous.   In fact that is the explanation of the errors as the documents were compiled from different sources.   If it really were "the Word of God" there would be no errors, and no disputes about meaning.  How could there be?

[Piney]

13 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

Before we start, let us put this in scientific terms which distinguish between “error,” which is built into the measuring system and “mistake” which is a human-induced deviation from truth.  A tall man reads a temperature gauge low because he looks downward past the hand to the dial.  He does this every time without thinking about it, so when his readings are averaged they are inherently low.  A short man reads the gauge high and produces an average biased to the high side.  This is “error,” an inaccuracy built into the system by the heights of the two men, or the heights of the platform on which they stand.  It is nobody’s fault; it just is.

Mistakes are created by inverting two digits, like reading “29” and writing “92” on the form.  Oklahoma Weather Bulletins from the early 1900s have many arithmetic mistakes created by inadvertently switching lines in the middle of data entry.  These, while unintentional, render data difficult or impossible to use.

Another concept we need is “evidence.”  Evidence must bear directly on the question being addressed:  Is there a god?  Yes Or No.  And it must be clear enough that unbiased observers from opposite sides of the issue can agree on its meaning.

For the question of biblical inerrancy, our evidence is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) itself.

Joshua 15:33-36

³³ And in the valley, Eshtaol, and Zoreah, and Ashnah,

³⁴ And Zanoah, and Engannim, Tappuah, and Enam,

³⁵ Jarmuth, and Adullam, Socoh, and Azekah,

³⁶ And Sharaim, and Adithaim, and Gederah, and Gederothaim; fourteen cities with their villages:

 

There are fifteen cities listed, but verse 15:36 says there are 14.  This is a simple counting mistake.

 

Joshua 15:48-51

⁴⁸ And in the mountains, Shamir, and Jattir, and Socoh,

⁴⁹ And Dannah, and Kirjathsannah, which is Debir,

⁵⁰ And Anab, and Eshtemoh, and Anim,

⁵¹ And Goshen, and Holon, and Giloh; eleven cities with their villages:

 

There are 12 cities listed, but verse 15:51 says there are 11.

 

 

But the author of Joshua isn’t done yet.

Joshua 15:23-32

²³ And Kedesh, and Hazor, and Ithnan,

²⁴ Ziph, and Telem, and Bealoth,

²⁵ And Hazor, Hadattah, and Kerioth, and Hezron, which is Hazor,

²⁶ Amam, and Shema, and Moladah,

²⁷ And Hazargaddah, and Heshmon, and Bethpalet,

²⁸ And Hazarshual, and Beersheba, and Bizjothjah,

²⁹ Baalah, and Iim, and Azem,

³⁰ And Eltolad, and Chesil, and Hormah,

³¹ And Ziklag, and Madmannah, and Sansannah,

³² And Lebaoth, and Shilhim, and Ain, and Rimmon: all the cities are twenty and nine, with their villages:

 

There are 31 cities listed (Hazor/Hezron is listed twice.), but verse 15:32 says there are 29.

These are three counting mistakes, admittedly trivial, but they serve to prove that the Bible contains mistakes.  If the Bible contains mistakes, it can’t be inerrant; hence inerrancy is disproven.  QED.

First you need to get yourself a copy of the Jerusalem Bible. The King James version isn't a good translation. The NIV I call the "Lying for Jesus" version because it was purposely mistranslated to apply to American Evangelical horse****.

Then we can go from there.

[cormac mac airt]

17 minutes ago, Piney said:

First you need to get yourself a copy of the Jerusalem Bible. The King James version isn't a good translation. The NIV I call the "Lying for Jesus" version because it was purposely mistranslated to apply to American Evangelical horse****.

Then we can go from there.

Same problem Piney. I have a copy : 

The Holy Bible
The New Jerusalem Bible NJB

cormac

[Guyver]

45 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

For the question of biblical inerrancy, our evidence is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) itself.

 

Greetings Doug.  First of all, I can confirm that you are correct that there are a significant number of people who do in fact believe in “Biblical inerrancy” and I was once one for a long time.  Primarily, I think this is a belief among Evangelical Christians.

Secondly, KJV-Only is also a belief among certain Evangelical Christian groups, and they believe the KJV is the only one that is inerrant, and this goes for the New King James Version as well.  A KJV-Only person will not accept the NKJV as an inerrant Bible as only the KJV fits that bill.

So, what made me give up my belief in Biblical Inerrancy?  Well, it’s when I began to find errors in the Bible.  There are two I found that made me begin to question my own beliefs.  The first has to do with David’s sin in numbering Israel.  There are two errors that stood out to me.  The first was in the numbers themselves.

According to 2 Samuel 24 David commanded Joab to go number the warriors of the land.  After 9 months and 20 days, he returned with the following numbers.  In Israel there were 800,000 fighting men, and in Judah there were 500,000 men for a total of 1,300,000 men.

In 1 Chronicles 21, the same story is recounted only this time the Bible does not say how long the census took.  When Joab returned, these are the numbers he provided King David.  From Israel 1,100,000 fighting men and from Judah 470,000 men for a total of 1,570,000 men.  1,570,000 = not 1,300,000.

TBC.

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Guyver

[Guyver]

Secondly, the source of “David’s Sin” is directly contradicted in the stories above.  In 2 Samuel 24 the Bible claims that it was the Lord who caused David to sin. “Again, the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and he moved David against them…”

In 1 Chronicles 21 a different source for this sin was identified.  “Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel.”

So, the Bible being confused about whether it was God or Satan who caused David to sin, is what I consider a glaringly huge error.

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Same problem Piney. I have a copy : 

The Holy Bible
The New Jerusalem Bible NJB

cormac

That's the only Bible at Penn for history students who don't read Koine, Latin and Hebrew.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

And in the mountains, Shamir, and Jattir, and Socoh,

⁴⁹ And Dannah, and Kirjathsannah, which is Debir,

⁵⁰ And Anab, and Eshtemoh, and Anim,

⁵¹ And Goshen, and Holon, and Giloh; eleven cities with their villages:

 

There are 12 cities listed, but verse 15:51 says there are 11.

Are we sure that Debir and Kirjathsannah are not two different names for the same place, hence the 'which is'?

[cormac mac airt]

Other errors in the Bible: 

The Commandment “Thou shall not kill” was mistranslated, it originally was written “Thou shall not MURDER. There’s a huge distinction between the two. 
 

Also, the word “Hell” exists nowhere in the original Bible as neither the word nor the place it describes existed in Judeo-Christian belief 2000 years ago. Words translated as same since then were Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna none of which are the same as what is understood by the word “Hell”. 
 

cormac

Edited July 5, 2022 by cormac mac airt
Spelling

[Piney]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Other errors in the Bible: 

Ths Commandment “Thou shall not kill” was mistranslated, it originally was written “Thou shall not MURDER. There’s a huge distinction between the two. 
 

Also, the word “Hell” exists nowhere in the original Bible as neither the word nor the place it describes existed in Judeo-Christian belief 2000 years ago. Words translated as same since then were Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna none of which are the same as what is understood by the word “Hell”. 
 

cormac

And the 2 different versions of David's story and Genesis only found in English translation in the Jerusalem model.

Then we have the "Lucifer" crappola, which is why many Evangelicals consider the KJ as the only accurate one.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

IIRC the Catholic Position in the matter is that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God dependant upon how you as the reader take it up onto your heart. Or to be more succinct - it’s only inerrant in the places where errors have not been found. 

[Guyver]

12 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Other errors in the Bible: 

The Commandment “Thou shall not kill” was mistranslated, it originally was written “Thou shall not MURDER. There’s a huge distinction between the two. 
 

Also, the word “Hell” exists nowhere in the original Bible as neither the word nor the place it describes existed in Judeo-Christian belief 2000 years ago. Words translated as same since then were Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna none of which are the same as what is understood by the word “Hell”. 
 

cormac

Well said.  To add, the word Tartarus is actually from Greek Mythology.  It can be shown that both Greek and Latin words have made their way into Hebrew Bibles, and the latter wasn’t even an extant written language at the time of the writing of Isaiah, and it contains the word Lucifer which is not a Hebrew word, but Latin. Additionally, the word satyr made its way into the KJV, also from Isaiah and that is another word from Greek Mythology, and not a Hebrew word or idea.

[cormac mac airt]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

And the 2 different versions of David's story and Genesis only found in English translation in the Jerusalem model.

Then we have the "Lucifer" crappola, which is why many Evangelicals consider the KJ as the only accurate one.

All of which is exacerbated by the fact that NONE of the Christian groups in the earliest centuries AD had access to what is currently called “The Bible” as the books within were written in multiple timeframes, in multiple locations by multiple writers with various educational levels. The one thing that CAN be said about it is that no part of it is inerrant. 
 

cormac

[Guyver]

2 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

IIRC the Catholic Position in the matter is that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God dependant upon how you as the reader take it up onto your heart. Or to be more succinct - it’s only inerrant in the places where errors have not been found. 

Yes, well, they consider the word of the Pope to be on par with the Bible….so….anyway. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Just now, Guyver said:

Yes, well, they consider the word of the Pope to be on par with the Bible….so….anyway. 

Only when speaking Ex Catherdra, upon matter of Catholic Doctrine, not on matter of Biblical Scholarships.

[the13bats]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

If it really were "the Word of God" there would be no errors, and no disputes about meaning.  How could there be?

^^^^ right

If there is a "God" and its that specific God, then if yes that makes all other religions false.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, the13bats said:

^^^^ right

If there is a "God" and its that specific God, then if yes that makes all other religions false.

AND if there were "only One God" like has been shouted at me a few times, there would only be "only One Religion".    No one would be able to think of anything else because - God, right?   All the excuses that god let's this and expects that and "free will"  is nonsense.   We have free will if we choose, but it makes no sense that a deity would make laws and then give us the ability to break those "laws".

Edited July 5, 2022 by Desertrat56

[the13bats]

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Greetings Doug.  First of all, I can confirm that you are correct that there are a significant number of people who do in fact believe in “Biblical inerrancy” and I was once one for a long time.  Primarily, I think this is a belief among Evangelical Christians.

Secondly, KJV-Only is also a belief among certain Evangelical Christian groups, and they believe the KJV is the only one that is inerrant, and this goes for the New King James Version as well.  A KJV-Only person will not accept the NKJV as an inerrant Bible as only the KJV fits that bill.

So, what made me give up my belief in Biblical Inerrancy?  Well, it’s when I began to find errors in the Bible.  There are two I found that made me begin to question my own beliefs.  The first has to do with David’s sin in numbering Israel.  There are two errors that stood out to me.  The first was in the numbers themselves.

According to 2 Samuel 24 David commanded Joab to go number the warriors of the land.  After 9 months and 20 days, he returned with the following numbers.  In Israel there were 800,000 fighting men, and in Judah there were 500,000 men for a total of 1,300,000 men.

In 1 Chronicles 21, the same story is recounted only this time the Bible does not say how long the census took.  When Joab returned, these are the numbers he provided King David.  From Israel 1,100,000 fighting men and from Judah 470,000 men for a total of 1,570,000 men.  1,570,000 = not 1,300,000.

TBC.

 

When you lost your faith was it depessing or uplifting to you?

[the13bats]

11 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

AND if there were "only One God" like has been shouted at me a few times, there would only be "One Religion".    

Yeah, if that one God didnt allow others to form up, but if people were free you get where im babbling.

[Silver]

The Bible is the "Word of God"? Did God personally write it? Or did he dictate it? If he dictated it, why isn't he updating it? Surely he will have something new to say after 2k years of progress, after all we have moved from goat-herding to putting robots on Mars.

[Silver]

7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

AND if there were "only One God" like has been shouted at me a few times, there would only be "only One Religion".    No one would be able to think of anything else because - God, right?   All the excuses that god let's this and expects that and "free will"  is nonsense.   We have free will if we choose, but it makes no sense that a deity would make laws and then give us the ability to break those "laws".

There is only one God and one religion- and the Spaghetti Monster takes no prisoners!

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

10 minutes ago, the13bats said:

^^^^ right

If there is a "God" and its that specific God, then if yes that makes all other religions false.

Not really, as there are tonnes of stuff in the Bible about not worshipping other Gods, cases in point Moloch, Ba’al and Dagon.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Not really, as there are tonnes of stuff in the Bible about not worshipping other Gods, cases in point Moloch, Ba’al and Dagon.

Which indicates that there are other gods to worship.  That judaic god that the romans borrowed was jealous and not "The One God".   You can't have it both ways and the bible is full of contradictions like that.   

[XenoFish]

45 minutes ago, Piney said:

Then we have the "Lucifer" crappola

You know how you feel about Atlantis, yeah, Lucifer is my mind thorn.