Biblical inerrancy

[the13bats]

14 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Not really, as there are tonnes of stuff in the Bible about not worshipping other Gods, cases in point Moloch, Ba’al and Dagon.

Its still a "this is the true religion" idea to me.

Anyhoo, not a section i should be in, ill be in my make believe sections, oh wait...never mind , im out.

[Guyver]

42 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Other errors in the Bible: 

The Commandment “Thou shall not kill” was mistranslated, it originally was written “Thou shall not MURDER. There’s a huge distinction between the two. 
 

Also, the word “Hell” exists nowhere in the original Bible as neither the word nor the place it describes existed in Judeo-Christian belief 2000 years ago. Words translated as same since then were Hades, Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna none of which are the same as what is understood by the word “Hell”. 
 

cormac

You know Cormac, as I read this, I can’t help but think about something.  If it’s wrong for people to kill or murder, whichever is correct, why would it be OK for God to do so?  If we as the Bible claims are people made in Gods image (whatever that means), then why would it be wrong for us to murder, but OK for God to do it?  It makes me think that the Bible can be shown to not only be factually in error, but also erroneous in moral principle.  I asked an online group of Christians about this question once, and they said it’s ok for God to do it because he has the power to bring the dead back to life, but since we don’t it’s wrong. That doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.”

1 Samuel 2:25 “If one man sins against another, God[a] will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.”

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Not really, as there are tonnes of stuff in the Bible about not worshipping other Gods, cases in point Moloch, Ba’al and Dagon.

True but as God, allegedly, originally commands “Thou shall have no other gods BEFORE Me” and not “Thou shall have no other gods EXCEPT Me” for one and openly admits that other peoples and countries have their own gods, for another, His commands are meant for His chosen people and any converts and NOT for everyone. At least not originally. 
 

cormac

[Guyver]

In the passage above it said God wanted to kill them.  That seems exactly like murder to me.

[Guyver]

17 minutes ago, the13bats said:

When you lost your faith was it depessing or uplifting to you?

This thread is about Biblical Inerrancy, not me personally….but it was depressing and uplifting to me.

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

You know Cormac, as I read this, I can’t help but think about something.  If it’s wrong for people to kill or murder, whichever is correct, why would it be OK for God to do so?  If we as the Bible claims are people made in Gods image (whatever that means), then why would it be wrong for us to murder, but OK for God to do it?  It makes me think that the Bible can be shown to not only be factually in error, but also erroneous in moral principle.  I asked an online group of Christians about this question once, and they said it’s ok for God to do it because he has the power to bring the dead back to life, but since we don’t it’s wrong. That doesn’t make sense to me at all.

Exodus 20:13 “You shall not murder.”

1 Samuel 2:25 “If one man sins against another, God[a] will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.”

Simple answer “Do as I say not as I do”. After all, who’s going to stop God?

cormac

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

who’s going to stop God?

Another God. I don't even mean that jokingly. When all is said and done, say 500 years from now (if people still exist) a new religion might have been born. I don't think this particular memetic virus can last another 1000 years. 

[Guyver]

1 minute ago, cormac mac airt said:

Simple answer “Do as I say not as I do”. After all, who’s going to stop God?

cormac

That seems so barbaric and primitive to me.  It seems to me that THE Supreme Being would not suffer from the same problems of ego that we do.  Such a being of perfection would have no need to show pride, ego, or hatred the way people do, since such a being would already be morally superior to us in every way.

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

There is a school of thought that the Bible, being “the Word of God,” is error free (inerrant).  Is this true?

Before we start, let us put this in scientific terms which distinguish between “error,” which is built into the measuring system and “mistake” which is a human-induced deviation from truth.  A tall man reads a temperature gauge low because he looks downward past the hand to the dial.  He does this every time without thinking about it, so when his readings are averaged they are inherently low.  A short man reads the gauge high and produces an average biased to the high side.  This is “error,” an inaccuracy built into the system by the heights of the two men, or the heights of the platform on which they stand.  It is nobody’s fault; it just is.

Mistakes are created by inverting two digits, like reading “29” and writing “92” on the form.  Oklahoma Weather Bulletins from the early 1900s have many arithmetic mistakes created by inadvertently switching lines in the middle of data entry.  These, while unintentional, render data difficult or impossible to use.

Another concept we need is “evidence.”  Evidence must bear directly on the question being addressed:  Is there a god?  Yes Or No.  And it must be clear enough that unbiased observers from opposite sides of the issue can agree on its meaning.

For the question of biblical inerrancy, our evidence is the King James Version of the Bible (KJV) itself.

Joshua 15:33-36

³³ And in the valley, Eshtaol, and Zoreah, and Ashnah,

³⁴ And Zanoah, and Engannim, Tappuah, and Enam,

³⁵ Jarmuth, and Adullam, Socoh, and Azekah,

³⁶ And Sharaim, and Adithaim, and Gederah, and Gederothaim; fourteen cities with their villages:

 

There are fifteen cities listed, but verse 15:36 says there are 14.  This is a simple counting mistake.

 

Joshua 15:48-51

⁴⁸ And in the mountains, Shamir, and Jattir, and Socoh,

⁴⁹ And Dannah, and Kirjathsannah, which is Debir,

⁵⁰ And Anab, and Eshtemoh, and Anim,

⁵¹ And Goshen, and Holon, and Giloh; eleven cities with their villages:

 

There are 12 cities listed, but verse 15:51 says there are 11.

 

 

But the author of Joshua isn’t done yet.

Joshua 15:23-32

²³ And Kedesh, and Hazor, and Ithnan,

²⁴ Ziph, and Telem, and Bealoth,

²⁵ And Hazor, Hadattah, and Kerioth, and Hezron, which is Hazor,

²⁶ Amam, and Shema, and Moladah,

²⁷ And Hazargaddah, and Heshmon, and Bethpalet,

²⁸ And Hazarshual, and Beersheba, and Bizjothjah,

²⁹ Baalah, and Iim, and Azem,

³⁰ And Eltolad, and Chesil, and Hormah,

³¹ And Ziklag, and Madmannah, and Sansannah,

³² And Lebaoth, and Shilhim, and Ain, and Rimmon: all the cities are twenty and nine, with their villages:

 

There are 31 cities listed (Hazor/Hezron is listed twice.), but verse 15:32 says there are 29.

These are three counting mistakes, admittedly trivial, but they serve to prove that the Bible contains mistakes.  If the Bible contains mistakes, it can’t be inerrant; hence inerrancy is disproven.  QED.

I would recommend a read up on non-duality and why its impossible to explain.

To begin with non-duality is when nothing exists relative to anything else. That isn`t the same as non-existence of anything, it means everything is unified into one. God is this state of oneness. Of course we can only know things relative to other things.

How can you describe a state of oneness with words? Its impossible. Our language is structured in such a way that it has arisen in a reality where things are relative to each other. Good is relative to evil, justice is relative to getting wronged, mercy is relative to damnation. None of them can possibly explain anything about God as God does not have relative properties but is oneness.

So the challenge for the Bible (and all religions) is in having to skirt around non-duality while trying to hint at or indirectly point towards what it is. Hence the only sentence correct in the Bible is the opening one. And not the King James version, but we have to correctly translate the oldest Hebrew versions. Everything else in the Bible does not explain oneness, but skirts around it, trying to hint at it.

[Duke Wellington]

1 minute ago, Guyver said:

That seems so barbaric and primitive to me.  It seems to me that THE Supreme Being would not suffer from the same problems of ego that we do.  Such a being of perfection would have no need to show pride, ego, or hatred the way people do, since such a being would already be morally superior to us in every way.

Oneness would be not only an absence of all those qualities, but all their relative opposites too.

[cormac mac airt]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Another God. I don't even mean that jokingly. When all is said and done, say 500 years from now (if people still exist) a new religion might have been born. I don't think this particular memetic virus can last another 1000 years. 

Maybe not but including Judaism it’s already lasted 3000+ years. Who knows? 
 

cormac

[XenoFish]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Who knows? 

I don't. Won't live that long. 

[cormac mac airt]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

That seems so barbaric and primitive to me.  It seems to me that THE Supreme Being would not suffer from the same problems of ego that we do.  Such a being of perfection would have no need to show pride, ego, or hatred the way people do, since such a being would already be morally superior to us in every way.

Consider the culture that cultivated His worship? It explains itself IMO. 
 

cormac

[the13bats]

10 minutes ago, Guyver said:

That seems so barbaric and primitive to me.  It seems to me that THE Supreme Being would not suffer from the same problems of ego that we do.  Such a being of perfection would have no need to show pride, ego, or hatred the way people do, since such a being would already be morally superior to us in every way.

Yeah, but accirding to the bible God did have ego and humanly issues,

But if you pray and your wish is granted god will change the universe just for you.

 

[Guyver]

1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

Oneness would be not only an absence of all those qualities, but all their relative opposites too.

That is some heavy ****.  I mean, wow….I love to hear smart people talk.  I’m going to have to think on it more deeply, but my first instinct is to say that you are correct and that would really explain some things to me.

[XenoFish]

All I know (from being on here and learning) is that the bible is just a Frankenstein patchwork of different books. I mean when only a certain number of them are canonized it makes you think what was left out. 

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Guyver said:

I love to hear smart people talk.

[+Desertrat56]

1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

Thank you.

[XenoFish]

Just now, Desertrat56 said:

Thank you.

Trying to stay out of trouble. 

[+Desertrat56]

Just now, XenoFish said:

Trying to stay out of trouble. 

Me too.   (almost)

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Guyver said:

Greetings Doug.  First of all, I can confirm that you are correct that there are a significant number of people who do in fact believe in “Biblical inerrancy” and I was once one for a long time.  Primarily, I think this is a belief among Evangelical Christians.

Secondly, KJV-Only is also a belief among certain Evangelical Christian groups, and they believe the KJV is the only one that is inerrant, and this goes for the New King James Version as well.  A KJV-Only person will not accept the NKJV as an inerrant Bible as only the KJV fits that bill.

So, what made me give up my belief in Biblical Inerrancy?  Well, it’s when I began to find errors in the Bible.  There are two I found that made me begin to question my own beliefs.  The first has to do with David’s sin in numbering Israel.  There are two errors that stood out to me.  The first was in the numbers themselves.

According to 2 Samuel 24 David commanded Joab to go number the warriors of the land.  After 9 months and 20 days, he returned with the following numbers.  In Israel there were 800,000 fighting men, and in Judah there were 500,000 men for a total of 1,300,000 men.

In 1 Chronicles 21, the same story is recounted only this time the Bible does not say how long the census took.  When Joab returned, these are the numbers he provided King David.  From Israel 1,100,000 fighting men and from Judah 470,000 men for a total of 1,570,000 men.  1,570,000 = not 1,300,000.

TBC.

 

That's the kind of reply I amlooking for.  Thanks.

Doug

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I don't. Won't live that long. 

I dunno, the good die young - I expect that means you’ll hit at least triple figures :p

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Are we sure that Debir and Kirjathsannah are not two different names for the same place, hence the 'which is'?

Good point.  Maybe I didn't pick the best example.

Doug

[XenoFish]

Just now, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

I dunno, the good die young - I expect that means you’ll hit at least triple figures :p

I've been around since the cat god sharted the universe into existence. 

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

All I know (from being on here and learning) is that the bible is just a Frankenstein patchwork of different books. I mean when only a certain number of them are canonized it makes you think what was left out. 

Hell, there are canonical debates about the contents of certain books! (C.f. The number of chapters in Daniel between Catholic Bibles and Protestant Bibles).