Biblical inerrancy

[+joc]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

The crown of Jesus.

Many early Quakers adopted a Unitarian stance that he was just a teacher.

Thanks, because...I took the title the other way...

So, I will explain the reality of the Cross (of Jesus) and the Crown (of England).  The Crown is ruled by the Church.  Without the Cross...the Crown would have no authority to reign at all because, the Crown is powered by the Church.  Without the Cross of Jesus...the Church would have no power.  Take away the Cross...you take away the tradition of the Tithe (which was introduced back in the OT  in ...uh...Numbers maybe)  Without the Belief of Eternal Life, et al...the Tithe would simply vanish and this Tithe Factor is what has kept both the Church and the Crown in power since the Dark Ages.  If the Crown disappeared, so would the Church, and if the Church disappeared, so would the Crown...and without the myth of the Holy Trinity...all of Christianity would wither on the Vine of the Lie of Peter and the Apostles.  All of it hinges on the Resurrection.  It is the key to eternal Christendom.  No Resurrection...no tithe.  No tithe...no Church...no Church...no Crown...no Crown...no England...no England ... hmmmm

[Grim Reaper 6]

14 minutes ago, joc said:

Thanks, because...I took the title the other way...

So, I will explain the reality of the Cross (of Jesus) and the Crown (of England).  The Crown is ruled by the Church.  Without the Cross...the Crown would have no authority to reign at all because, the Crown is powered by the Church.  Without the Cross of Jesus...the Church would have no power.  Take away the Cross...you take away the tradition of the Tithe (which was introduced back in the OT  in ...uh...Numbers maybe)  Without the Belief of Eternal Life, et al...the Tithe would simply vanish and this Tithe Factor is what has kept both the Church and the Crown in power since the Dark Ages.  If the Crown disappeared, so would the Church, and if the Church disappeared, so would the Crown...and without the myth of the Holy Trinity...all of Christianity would wither on the Vine of the Lie of Peter and the Apostles.  All of it hinges on the Resurrection.  It is the key to eternal Christendom.  No Resurrection...no tithe.  No tithe...no Church...no Church...no Crown...no Crown...no England...no England ... hmmmm

Thanks for that explanation, I had no idea I learned something new tonight my friend!

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, Piney said:

The best way to practice inner silence is with noise and distraction.

That exactly why I use music whenever possible during meditation, but it’s also a double edged sword the right music at least for me enhances the experience as I move to the next level.

For instance I have tinnitus in my left ear for more than 30 years, and it certainly doesn’t effect my ability to find inner silence at all. 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Manwon Lender

[+joc]

1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

Thanks for that explanation, I had no idea I learned something new tonight my friend!

If you want to know the real power behind the Crown and the Church...research The Knights of Solomon...aka...The Knights Templar.  

In short, The Church created a fighting force to protect pilgrims from being attacked by Muslims.  That fighting force was The Knights Templar...who became so powerful, the King of France was indebt to them beyond his power to repay.  He conspired with the Church to destroy the KT because they were so powerful the Church that created them feared them.  The two main leaders of the KT were charged with treason and burned at the stake.  No more debt for the King of France and a sigh of relief for the Church.

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 minutes ago, joc said:

If you want to know the real power behind the Crown and the Church...research The Knights of Solomon...aka...The Knights Templar.  

In short, The Church created a fighting force to protect pilgrims from being attacked by Muslims.  That fighting force was The Knights Templar...who became so powerful, the King of France was indebt to them beyond his power to repay.  He conspired with the Church to destroy the KT because they were so powerful the Church that created them feared them.  The two main leaders of the KT were charged with treason and burned at the stake.  No more debt for the King of France and a sigh of relief for the Church.

I am familiar with the role of the Catholic Church, Crusades and the Knights Templar, my comments were directed at your cool explanation of the Cross and the Crown. I just never heard it explained in that exact manner and I enjoyed reading it!

Edited July 6, 2022 by Manwon Lender

[Piney]

29 minutes ago, joc said:

Thanks, because...I took the title the other way...

So, I will explain the reality of the Cross (of Jesus) and the Crown (of England).  The Crown is ruled by the Church.  Without the Cross...the Crown would have no authority to reign at all because, the Crown is powered by the Church.  Without the Cross of Jesus...the Church would have no power.  Take away the Cross...you take away the tradition of the Tithe (which was introduced back in the OT  in ...uh...Numbers maybe)  Without the Belief of Eternal Life, et al...the Tithe would simply vanish and this Tithe Factor is what has kept both the Church and the Crown in power since the Dark Ages.  If the Crown disappeared, so would the Church, and if the Church disappeared, so would the Crown...and without the myth of the Holy Trinity...all of Christianity would wither on the Vine of the Lie of Peter and the Apostles.  All of it hinges on the Resurrection.  It is the key to eternal Christendom.  No Resurrection...no tithe.  No tithe...no Church...no Church...no Crown...no Crown...no England...no England ... hmmmm

Billy was on decent terms with Charlie 2 who granted him PA. I'm more than certain he wanted to keep that grant rather than it revert to the Crown like a certain New England colony.

[lightly]

Stretching back into pre-history ..rulers and religions have always been co- dependents?  Each drawing it’s strength from the other.. God/Kings?  It’s nearly all ‘errant’ ?. .but if we keep talking and writing long enough we’re bound to say something nearly Inerrant ? 

Ecclesiastes, 1 - Bíblia Católica Online

    9.   "What was, will be again, what has been done, will be done again, and there is nothing new under the sun!" 
 

[Doug1066]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

You might want to dig into some of Henry Cadbury's writing. He was a Hicksite theologian, from Haverford I think, who shredded the accuracy of the Bible.

I'm not trying to shred it.  I just want biblical grounds to dismiss it when it disagrees wit scientific findings.  It IS a fascinating folktale.

Doug

[cormac mac airt]

25 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

I'm not trying to shred it.  I just want biblical grounds to dismiss it when it disagrees wit scientific findings.  It IS a fascinating folktale.

Doug

There’s A LOT that disagrees with scientific findings. One that sticks out immediately to me is that using the Hebrew Calendar of today the Great Flood would have occurred circa 2104 BC right in the middle of Egyptian Pharaoh Inyotef II’s uninterrupted 50 year reign. 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

12 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

There’s A LOT that disagrees with scientific findings. One that sticks out immediately to me is that using the Hebrew Calendar of today the Great Flood would have occurred circa 2104 BC right in the middle of Egyptian Pharaoh Inyotef II’s uninterrupted 50 year reign. 
 

cormac

The dates of the "Great Flood," which might not have been all that great, were lost millennia ago.  A megaflood came down the Nile about 6080+/-40 BP.  It appears to have been contemporaneous with a flood at Ur that reached depths of 8 or 9 meters (12m above the alluvial plain).  The Ur flood occurred between the al-Ubaid (Stone Age) and Uruk cultures (Bronze Age), as called for in the Bible.  So, about 6080 BP is the best estimate for a date.

The Ur flood may have been a result of a flood on  Wadi al-Batin.  Ur stands on its alluvial fan.

Only 4 out of 116 excavated ruins in Mesopotamia show flood layers and not all of those are contemporaneous.  How a megaflood could happen and leave no more record than this is a mystery.  How many of those ruins were built on sites that had no pre-flood history so floods would be undatable?

I found records for a series of 700 boreholes that penetrate into the flood layer in Mesopotamia.  Next week I plan to look them up and determine the lateral spread of the flood layer.  That should tell me a lot about the size of the flood we're talking about.

There were a series of floods, essentially world-wide, about 2344 BC (4292 BP).  I have not begun to look at those yet, but they happened about 1800 years after the beginning of the Bronze Age.

If 6080 BP doesn't agree very well with the ages of biblical patriarchs, remember the issue of this thread is "Biblical inerrancy," or the lack thereof.

Doug

[Duke Wellington]

Each of the Abrahamic religions has its own types of mysticism. I have read and learned about Kabbalah, Bridal Mysticism, and Sufism. And also some Eastern forms of mysticism. So lets give a run down.

There is a weird potential called oneness which everything has come from. Its a weird potential where nothing exists relative to anything else. But it is neither in a state of existence or not existing. Thats because something can only exist if its relative to other things. The state is called non-duality.

Nothingness is impossible so something exists. That creates dualities dragged out of the potential. Everything dragged out of the potential needs other dualities to exist. So nothingness is impossible, something always exists, the universe builds up around it, and the something emerges as thoughts. Thoughts are the cause of the universe, the concept is primacy of mind.

In Kabbalah and Bridal Mysticism the process is portrayed as a separation. On one side is everything brought into existence from non-duality, on the other is what remains of non-duality with those things removed. The remaining non-duality is God, we belong together, but cannot unify because of our dam thoughts.

So to reunify requires the elimination of thoughts. This is far easier to do than most realise. Stop thinking. Silence your mind. When something pops into your mind and you realise return back to silent mind. The first half an hour will be a constant battle. Two hours in you will struggle to have any thoughts at all. Obviously you won`t have eliminate conscious awareness but the thoughts will be gone.

Then, to show yourself that primacy of mind is real, have one pre-decided thought you will allow to occur. Think it, but keep the mind silent with everything else. Do it for an hour and see what happens. I would recommend the thought you choose is a bird crapping on your head. Thats safe. Think about it like it has occurred.

See if you get crapped on, you will.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Cookie Monster

[XenoFish]

17 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Then, to show yourself that primacy of mind is real, have one pre-decided thought you will allow to occur. Think it, but keep the mind silent with everything else. Do it for an hour and see what happens. I would recommend the thought you choose is a bird crapping on your head. Thats safe. Think about it like it has occurred.

See if you get crapped on, you will.

This is just confirmation bias.

[cormac mac airt]

7 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

The dates of the "Great Flood," which might not have been all that great, were lost millennia ago.  A megaflood came down the Nile about 6080+/-40 BP.  It appears to have been contemporaneous with a flood at Ur that reached depths of 8 or 9 meters (12m above the alluvial plain).  The Ur flood occurred between the al-Ubaid (Stone Age) and Uruk cultures (Bronze Age), as called for in the Bible.  So, about 6080 BP is the best estimate for a date.

The Ur flood may have been a result of a flood on  Wadi al-Batin.  Ur stands on its alluvial fan.

Only 4 out of 116 excavated ruins in Mesopotamia show flood layers and not all of those are contemporaneous.  How a megaflood could happen and leave no more record than this is a mystery.  How many of those ruins were built on sites that had no pre-flood history so floods would be undatable?

I found records for a series of 700 boreholes that penetrate into the flood layer in Mesopotamia.  Next week I plan to look them up and determine the lateral spread of the flood layer.  That should tell me a lot about the size of the flood we're talking about.

There were a series of floods, essentially world-wide, about 2344 BC (4292 BP).  I have not begun to look at those yet, but they happened about 1800 years after the beginning of the Bronze Age.

If 6080 BP doesn't agree very well with the ages of biblical patriarchs, remember the issue of this thread is "Biblical inerrancy," or the lack thereof.

Doug

Your floods circa 2344 don’t include the Chinese flood which has been dated to circa 1920 BC. 

Not only doesn’t 6080 BP agree with the ages of the patriarchs it doesn’t even agree with the Jewish calendar in use which has, for nearly 2000 years, been traditionally set at 3761/3760 BC or 5761/5760 BP for Creation. 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

12 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Your floods circa 2344 don’t include the Chinese flood which has been dated to circa 1920 BC. 

Not only doesn’t 6080 BP agree with the ages of the patriarchs it doesn’t even agree with the Jewish calendar in use which has, for nearly 2000 years, been traditionally set at 3761/3760 BC or 5761/5760 BP for Creation. 
 

cormac

The 2344 BC floods occurred around the world, including Bear Creek near Ponca City, Oklahoma, the Aegean, China including the Tarim Basin, the Indus Valley (Mohenjodaro) and Egypt, possibly lots of other places.  The hypothesis is that it was triggered by a the Taursid Meteor Swarm form Comet Encke.  I vaguely remember something about a tree-ring analysis of this that I am going to have to find.

As far as I have found so far, the 1920 BC flood in China is a one-off situation, but it does bear further study.

Because most of the dates I obtain came from 14C or OSE dates, I am using YBP for easier understanding.

Doug

[Phantom309]

Oh boy, tall tales of great floods once again..........<groan>

[Tatetopa]

I got into trouble early on in this area when I asked my Sunday school teacher who Cain and Abel married.   I think my follow up statement is why I got the lecture from my parents after church.  "It was only Adam and Eve as parents and I thought you weren't supposed to marry your sisters."

I was too young back then to realize you  could get around any logical contradictions if you just multiplied all the statements by the duality operator,  eg   anything x duality = makes sense to me. Inconsistencies vanish.

[Doug1066]

1 hour ago, Phantom309 said:

Oh boy, tall tales of great floods once again..........<groan>

A river-laid sediment layer separates the al-Ubaid level from the Uruk level at Ur in Mesopotamia.  The lower one is Stone Age, the upper one is Bronze Age, exactly as called for in the Bible.  The Great Flood was real.

The 6080 BP date is still a little iffy.  I need to do a little more work on that.

The "line of culture" was seriously disturbed by the flood, but not completely broken.  But how would you know?  Can you even name one Stone Age city?

 

The 6080 flood on the Nile overtopped a ridge and flowed into the Fayum Depression.  It destroyed the Fayum A culture.  A line of sub-fossil tamarisk killed by the rising water provides a 14C date.  The Qaranian culture replaced it.  If there was evidence of either culture along the river, it was buried under subsequent floods as the Nile buried its older channels.

 

If you're using the Bible to determine when the flood "was supposed to have happened," I'd think again:  14C and OSE dates are much more reliable AND independent.

Doug

P.S.:  that boat in the picture is a legend derived from the boat-shaped rock formation at Durupinar.  We don't even know if there was an ark.  We'll just have to take the Bible's word for it - for now.

Doug

Edited July 7, 2022 by Doug1066

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This is just confirmation bias.

Thank you. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Sherapy

[cormac mac airt]

2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

A river-laid sediment layer separates the al-Ubaid level from the Uruk level at Ur in Mesopotamia.  The lower one is Stone Age, the upper one is Bronze Age, exactly as called for in the Bible.  The Great Flood was real.

The 6080 BP date is still a little iffy.  I need to do a little more work on that.

The "line of culture" was seriously disturbed by the flood, but not completely broken.  But how would you know?  Can you even name one Stone Age city?

 

The 6080 flood on the Nile overtopped a ridge and flowed into the Fayum Depression.  It destroyed the Fayum A culture.  A line of sub-fossil tamarisk killed by the rising water provides a 14C date.  The Qaranian culture replaced it.  If there was evidence of either culture along the river, it was buried under subsequent floods as the Nile buried its older channels.

 

If you're using the Bible to determine when the flood "was supposed to have happened," I'd think again:  14C and OSE dates are much more reliable AND independent.

Doug

P.S.:  that boat in the picture is a legend derived from the boat-shaped rock formation at Durupinar.  We don't even know if there was an ark.  We'll just have to take the Bible's word for it - for now.

Doug

Why are you claiming the Great Flood is real when your 6080 BP date ignores Mesopotamian flood myth stories, like Gilgamesh, or even the Jewish Calendar? 
 

Where are you getting 6080 BP and if it’s iffy why are you using it as if it’s verified? 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

4 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Where are you getting 6080 BP and if it’s iffy why are you using it as if it’s verified? 

It's the date of the Nile flood.  It's a 14C date from the Fayum Depression from some sub-fossil tamarisk that was killed by it.  The same event was confirmed by strontium dates in both the Nile and Mesopotamia.  It's probably the best date we're ever going to get for that flood.  Besides, there weren't any other megafloods within 280 years of it.

There's actually a list of major Nile floods since the beginning of the Younger Dryas.  The three biggest were all part of the YD Wild Nile phase.  During the Altithermal there was a major flood at about 8400 BP, 7200 BP and the largest was the one at 6080BP. There were two more almost as large at 5800 and 5600.  Since then, even megafloods have gotten smaller (The desert has become hyper-arid.).

The three YD floods filled the Fayum Depression then filled the Qattara Depression and then spilled into the Mediterranean, giving the Nile an extra branch.  The river has never gone that high again.

Floods on the Nile are usually matched with floods in Mesopotamia, but not always.  Both depend on the position of the Inter-tropical convergence zone.  If it moves north, we get floods; if it goes south we get droughts.

6000 BP also marks the maximum transgression of the Persian Gulf.  The two events probably re-enforced each other.  Besides Mesopotamia and the Nile, there were storm surge-induced floods on the Isthmus of Suez and likely also the Gulf of Aqaba.  I don't think the last one reached the Dead Sea, but I ought to check water-levels just in case.  Also salinity.  Rising water and falling salinity is probably precip.  Rising water with no change or increasing salinity would suggest the Gulf of Aqaba reached the Dead Sea.

Sound fantastic?  The 6080 flood was the largest on the Nile during the entire Holocene - a 10,000-year flood.  These events weren't trivial.

Doug  

[Doug1066]

53 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

flood myth stories,

That about says it.

I plan to look into them, though.  Gilgamesh says the flood came down the Euphrates; Atrahasis says it came down the Tigris.  There's no sign of a major flood on the upper Euphrates, so it looks like Atrahasis might be right.  But it's hard to imagine a megaflood that didn't affect both rivers.

Doug

One comment on Post 115:  how did they keep these records?  Writing wouldn't be invented for another 3000 years.

Doug

Edited July 7, 2022 by Doug1066

[cormac mac airt]

14 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

It's the date of the Nile flood.  It's a 14C date from the Fayum Depression from some sub-fossil tamarisk that was killed by it.  The same event was confirmed by strontium dates in both the Nile and Mesopotamia.  It's probably the best date we're ever going to get for that flood.  Besides, there weren't any other megafloods within 280 years of it.

There's actually a list of major Nile floods since the beginning of the Younger Dryas.  The three biggest were all part of the YD Wild Nile phase.  During the Altithermal there was a major flood at about 8400 BP, 7200 BP and the largest was the one at 6080BP. There were two more almost as large at 5800 and 5600.  Since then, even megafloods have gotten smaller (The desert has become hyper-arid.).

The three YD floods filled the Fayum Depression then filled the Qattara Depression and then spilled into the Mediterranean, giving the Nile an extra branch.  The river has never gone that high again.

Floods on the Nile are usually matched with floods in Mesopotamia, but not always.  Both depend on the position of the Inter-tropical convergence zone.  If it moves north, we get floods; if it goes south we get droughts.

6000 BP also marks the maximum transgression of the Persian Gulf.  The two events probably re-enforced each other.  Besides Mesopotamia and the Nile, there were storm surge-induced floods on the Isthmus of Suez and likely also the Gulf of Aqaba.  I don't think the last one reached the Dead Sea, but I ought to check water-levels just in case.  Also salinity.  Rising water and falling salinity is probably precip.  Rising water with no change or increasing salinity would suggest the Gulf of Aqaba reached the Dead Sea.

Sound fantastic?  The 6080 flood was the largest on the Nile during the entire Holocene - a 10,000-year flood.  These events weren't trivial.

Doug  

So basically you’re completely ignoring the Sumerian flood story of Utnapishtim via the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Jews own chronology which both place the Great Flood at points within the 3rd millennium BC so you can claim it was actually late 5th millennium. A bit dishonest don’t you think? 
 

cormac

[Doug1066]

50 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

So basically you’re completely ignoring the Sumerian flood story of Utnapishtim via the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Jews own chronology which both place the Great Flood at points within the 3rd millennium BC so you can claim it was actually late 5th millennium. A bit dishonest don’t you think? 
 

cormac

Utnapishtim WAS Atrahasis.  Another name for the same person.*

The problem is that there were no significant floods where those legends say.  Trying to make up none-existent floods is the dishonest part.  So appreciate the myth as a good story.

This project is a long way from done.  I expect to publish in about three years, so until then I still have a lot of work to do.  So far, all I have is a partly-complete framework.  Besides, this is about megafloods, not ancient myths.

The critical test is that the pre-flood culture was Stone Age while the immediate post-flood culture used metal.  Where is that boundary in the archeologic record?  Where is it in the geologic record?  Do the two dates agree?

I have not yet had the time to dig through the Mesopotamian legends looking for clues, but I'll pretty-much guarantee the dates in those legends are wrong.

Doug

*You had to know that, didn't you?  Is this a flame-baiting attempt?  I honestly can't tell.

Doug

Edited July 7, 2022 by Doug1066

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, Doug1066 said:

Utnapishtim WAS Atrahasis.  Another name for the same person.*

The problem is that there were no significant floods where those legends say.  Trying to make up none-existent floods is the dishonest part.  So appreciate the myth as a good story.

This project is a long way from done.  I expect to publish in about three years, so until then I still have a lot of work to do.  So far, all I have is a partly-complete framework.  Besides, this is about megafloods, not ancient myths.

The critical test is that the pre-flood culture was Stone Age while the immediate post-flood culture used metal.  Where is that boundary in the archeologic record?  Where is it in the geologic record?  Do the two dates agree?

I have not yet had the time to dig through the Mesopotamian legends looking for clues, but I'll pretty-much guarantee the dates in those legends are wrong.

Doug

*You had to know that, didn't you?  Is this a flame-baiting attempt?  I honestly can't tell.

Doug

So Utnapishtim and Atrahasis are two names for the same person, so what? 
 

The problem is that it was THEIR story, NOT YOURS. You’re trying to force-fit a flood into being their flood not because it can be verified as true but just because you think you can. And since a flood is only “great” according to the storyteller there is absolutely no way you can know to what extent that was meant, let alone true. Even if it was a factual event. THAT’S the dishonest part. 
 

It could also be that if the event actually happened it was in reference to either of the Kish floods, misremembered as to time and extent, that would put it close to the timeframe scholars believe Gilgamesh lived. There is simply no real way for you to know with any degree of certainty. Especially with the difference in timeframes between your claim and the Kish floods being over 1000 years. 
 

cormac

[Phantom309]

11 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

A river-laid sediment layer separates the al-Ubaid level from the Uruk level at Ur in Mesopotamia.  The lower one is Stone Age, the upper one is Bronze Age, exactly as called for in the Bible.  The Great Flood was real.

The 6080 BP date is still a little iffy.  I need to do a little more work on that.

The "line of culture" was seriously disturbed by the flood, but not completely broken.  But how would you know?  Can you even name one Stone Age city?

 

The 6080 flood on the Nile overtopped a ridge and flowed into the Fayum Depression.  It destroyed the Fayum A culture.  A line of sub-fossil tamarisk killed by the rising water provides a 14C date.  The Qaranian culture replaced it.  If there was evidence of either culture along the river, it was buried under subsequent floods as the Nile buried its older channels.

 

If you're using the Bible to determine when the flood "was supposed to have happened," I'd think again:  14C and OSE dates are much more reliable AND independent.

Doug

P.S.:  that boat in the picture is a legend derived from the boat-shaped rock formation at Durupinar.  We don't even know if there was an ark.  We'll just have to take the Bible's word for it - for now.

Doug

1. No, I can't name one stone age city, and have no interest either.

2. Dates- I agree - stuff is all over the place with such fragmented records etc

3. Boat design- could be anything, but in reality, its a tall, tall, tale.

4. This all leads ultimately to the fable of the ark, and there are many memes etc depicting the fallacy of it all.