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Biblical inerrancy


Doug1066

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3 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Family lineages:

Bible:                          16th Dynasty (Hyksos)

Jacob-Israel               Jacob-Baal               Both names mean "Follower of God"

Isaac                          Yakbam                    Yak transliterates into "Isaac"

Kohath                       Yoam

Amram                        Amu                         Both names mean "Father"

Moses                        Ahmose I                  Both names contain Moses (Child)

Moses' genealogy is a Hyksos king list.

Doug

The Hyksos, heku-khasut, weren't Hebrew. 

cormac

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18 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

ell me who this mythical Moses with a made up name, Osar-Seph, which appears nowhere in recorded Egyptian (nor even Hebrew) history "really" was. 

You will find him in Josephus' writings, History of the Jews and Against Apion.  As Josephus was a Jew, I'd say that sort of invalidates your Hebrew history statement.

Doug

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4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

You will find him in Josephus' writings, History of the Jews and Against Apion.  As Josephus was a Jew, I'd say that sort of invalidates your Hebrew history statement.

Doug

Nope because Josephus allegedly took it from Manetho, who wasn't exactly the paragon of accuracy concerning Egypt OR the Hebrews. 

cormac

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2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The Hyksos, heku-khasut, weren't Hebrew. 

cormac

Doesn't matter.  Their descendants moved to Canaan (Sharuhen).  The story was written far later when Hebrews had amalgamated with resident canaanites.  When they needed a family genealogy for their hero, they used this one.  Kind of interesting that Moses' maternal line includes Egyptian royalty.

I conclude that Moses' genealogy was borrowed from other sources, tat the Bible's description is a myth.

Doug

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2 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope because Josephus allegedly took it from Manetho, who wasn't exactly the paragon of accuracy concerning Egypt OR the Hebrews. 

cormac

Allegedly.  Josephus himself says "Ancient writings."

Doug

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1 minute ago, Doug1066 said:

Doesn't matter.  Their descendants moved to Canaan (Sharuhen).  The story was written far later when Hebrews had amalgamated with resident canaanites.  When they needed a family genealogy for their hero, they used this one.  Kind of interesting that Moses' maternal line includes Egyptian royalty.

I conclude that Moses' genealogy was borrowed from other sources, tat the Bible's description is a myth.

Doug

Hebrews did no such thing as they were ALWAYS Canaanites, just ones who adopted and merged their original deity with another. 

I conclude that both the Biblical AND your genealogies are a myth. 

cormac

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6 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Allegedly.  Josephus himself says "Ancient writings."

Doug

A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away......

Josephus has his own historical accuracy problems. Not a point in your favor. 

cormac

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43 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Hebrews did no such thing as they were ALWAYS Canaanites, just ones who adopted and merged their original deity with another. 

I conclude that both the Biblical AND your genealogies are a myth. 

cormac

Conclude what you want.  I'm just passing along the facts:  Moses male ancestors were Hyksos kings and his female ones include Egyptian royalty.  But this is just one of four or more Moses prototypes.  Choose whichever one you want, or none of them.  It doesn't matter because Moses was a composite of several people and did not, himself, exist.

Doug

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44 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

A long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away......

Josephus has his own historical accuracy problems. Not a point in your favor. 

cormac

So does the Bible.  Not a point in either of our favors.

Doug

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Moses is like Paul Revere or Daniel Boone. 
Once upon a time, they were real people but over time layers and layers of mythology were added to them in order to build a national identity around them. Give it a few hundred years and the odd diaspora and Paul Revere will have rode a horse across the Delaware wearing a hat made out of moose skin wherein he is known to have shouted “Yippee-Kay-ay mother…..” when engaging in battle with the Welsh. 

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25 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Moses is like Paul Revere or Daniel Boone. 
Once upon a time, they were real people but over time layers and layers of mythology were added to them in order to build a national identity around them. Give it a few hundred years and the odd diaspora and Paul Revere will have rode a horse across the Delaware wearing a hat made out of moose skin wherein he is known to have shouted “Yippee-Kay-ay mother…..” when engaging in battle with the Welsh. 

I have actually fired a White rifle (one of twelve) which were made by Daniel Boone's cousin, David White.  Boone used a White rifle.  There's no guarantee that I actually fired Boone's rifle, but 1 in 12 odds isn't bad.

Doug

 

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2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Conclude what you want.  I'm just passing along the facts:  Moses male ancestors were Hyksos kings and his female ones include Egyptian royalty.  But this is just one of four or more Moses prototypes.  Choose whichever one you want, or none of them.  It doesn't matter because Moses was a composite of several people and did not, himself, exist.

Doug

"Moses archetype" you mean. When it comes to a choice of a simple one-off story of a Biblical character, regardless of whether or not he/she was real, or a cluster ---- of multiple anachronistic sources, I tend to prefer the K.I.S.S. method. 

cormac

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1860537956_AquifersinIraq.thumb.jpg.30cea1aa5a807529939c08494deb3d71.jpg

To what extent, if any, and how might these aquifers affect the flooding of ancient Mesopotamia? 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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24 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

"Moses archetype" you mean. When it comes to a choice of a simple one-off story of a Biblical character, regardless of whether or not he/she was real, or a cluster ---- of multiple anachronistic sources, I tend to prefer the K.I.S.S. method. 

cormac

OK.  "Moses archetype."

The problem with the Exodus story is that it incorporates vignettes from the eruption of Thera (1628 BC), the Amarna period (1346 - 1332 BC), Djehuty (1479 - 1425 BC) and Ramses III (1186 - 1145 BC).  The story spans the reigns of 42 Pharaohs, many with the same name (Ramses I, II, III, IV, V and VI; Seti I and II; Thutmoses II and III).  I don't know a way to make it simple.

Besides, most of the story is derived from tales of military/mining expeditions to Sinai.  It's not about a bunch of leprous ex-salves.  I believe there really was an expedition that got caught at El Kubrit and nearly drowned; maybe some did drown.  Follow the place names of the story.  They'll lead you exactly to the "Red Sea" crossing (which wasn't the Red Sea) and down the east side of the Gulf of Suez to El Merkha, then 25 miles inland to Mount Sinai (the real one, not Helena's Mistake).  It's all in there.

Doug

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10 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

1860537956_AquifersinIraq.thumb.jpg.30cea1aa5a807529939c08494deb3d71.jpg

To what extent, if any, and how might these aquifers affect the flooding of ancient Mesopotamia? 

cormac

No. 10 is the Mesopotamian fluvial plain.  Extremely subject to flooding.  Those to the north come from the Zagros Mountains and might carry water through underground passages that debauch into the Tigris.  Those to the west underlie desert country and wouldn't have a whole lot of water to contribute to a flood, though they could contribute enouh water for a spring to water a small city (Ur and Eridu).  Most flood waters were probably runoff on the surface.

Doug

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4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

OK.  "Moses archetype."

The problem with the Exodus story is that it incorporates vignettes from the eruption of Thera (1628 BC), the Amarna period (1346 - 1332 BC), Djehuty (1479 - 1425 BC) and Ramses III (1186 - 1145 BC).  The story spans the reigns of 42 Pharaohs, many with the same name (Ramses I, II, III, IV, V and VI; Seti I and II; Thutmoses II and III).  I don't know a way to make it simple.

Besides, most of the story is derived from tales of military/mining expeditions to Sinai.  It's not about a bunch of leprous ex-salves.  I believe there really was an expedition that got caught at El Kubrit and nearly drowned; maybe some did drown.  Follow the place names of the story.  They'll lead you exactly to the "Red Sea" crossing (which wasn't the Red Sea) and down the east side of the Gulf of Suez to El Merkha, then 25 miles inland to Mount Sinai (the real one, not Helena's Mistake).  It's all in there.

Doug

You may believe that but I'm not buying it. IMO you see what you want to see in order to validate the Moses story, which wasn't even written until after the Babylonian Exile. I see it as more of a poor attempt to validate the antiquity of a peoples who were, in comparison, newbies to the other cultures/civilizations on the scene. 

cormac

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2 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

No. 10 is the Mesopotamian fluvial plain.  Extremely subject to flooding.  Those to the north come from the Zagros Mountains and might carry water through underground passages that debauch into the Tigris.  Those to the west underlie desert country and wouldn't have a whole lot of water to contribute to a flood, though they could contribute enouh water for a spring to water a small city (Ur and Eridu).  Most flood waters were probably runoff on the surface.

Doug

Keep in mind that along with these aquifers one has to take into account the timeframe of the Marine Transgression which would also exacerbate the problem. 

cormac

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2 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Moses is like Paul Revere or Daniel Boone. 

One of these is not like the others.

I live in New England, not really far from Boston. Revere's (1735-1818) house still stands in the North End. Visit the local museums to see examples of his silver fabrication. If you ask nicely at the Atheneum, they might let you look at some of the various examples of his gravure work they've acquired. He did some of the paper money, too.

Revere was a real man who actually lived. Nearby (for me) and not all that long ago. Boone (1734-1820) was a real man, too, but I have less direct personal evidence of that, and perhaps he has more tall tales attached to him than Revere.

There is nothing comparable for Moses. He is the leading character in an origin-myth story that very probably never happened.

 

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32 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

You may believe that but I'm not buying it. IMO you see what you want to see in order to validate the Moses story, which wasn't even written until after the Babylonian Exile. I see it as more of a poor attempt to validate the antiquity of a peoples who were, in comparison, newbies to the other cultures/civilizations on the scene. 

cormac

They were newbies.  The story takes bits and pieces from at least four different periods.  Stuff that can be independently verified.  But it puts them altogether to tell a confused and fragmented story that didn't actually happen.  Those priests didn't have the records they needed and so re-created the story from sometimes faulty memories.

Doug

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35 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Keep in mind that along with these aquifers one has to take into account the timeframe of the Marine Transgression which would also exacerbate the problem. 

cormac

Reached a maximum about 6000 BP.  Getting awfully close to that 6080 figure.  I think The Flood occurred after the Gulf reached its high stand.  A few hundred years, maybe.  Woolley's 3500 BC would be 5450 BP.

But why is there no flood layer at Eridu?  It stood on the shore of the gulf.  If anybody saw a flood, it should have.  Or did the excavators see the flood layer and not recognize it.  Was Eridu really the oldest city in the area?  Might it be standing on The Flood layer?

Doug

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40 minutes ago, eight bits said:

One of these is not like the others.

I live in New England, not really far from Boston. Revere's (1735-1818) house still stands in the North End. Visit the local museums to see examples of his silver fabrication. If you ask nicely at the Atheneum, they might let you look at some of the various examples of his gravure work they've acquired. He did some of the paper money, too.

Revere was a real man who actually lived. Nearby (for me) and not all that long ago. Boone (1734-1820) was a real man, too, but I have less direct personal evidence of that, and perhaps he has more tall tales attached to him than Revere.


Hope you guys don’t mind the intrusion!

Well ‘I grew up in Missouri and I have been to the Daniel Boones home on many occasions there is no doubt he was a real man however like you said it is very hard to verify all the stories about him. Yet, many who have family history going back to his time in that area certainly make the claim the stories are more than likely accurate, but again with tourism being what it is it difficult to say! The way I learned about the Boone farm was because while I was born in St. Louis, my folks moved to St. Charles, Missouri in the early 1960s where the Boone home is located. Later my dad bought some land where we would go hunting that was once part of the Boone Land which was originally a 1000 acres, yet even then the land he bought was still is very close to the Boone home and farm. Here is a great link that explains the many sites located in Missouri: https://www.boonesociety.org/missouri-boone-sites

One thing very few know is the controversy concerning where he is actually buried!

Daniel Boone's First Grave

Marthasville,  Missouri

Everyone agrees that frontier folk here Daniel Boone died at his son's home near Defiance, Missouri, in 1820. Everyone also agrees that he was buried about 14 miles west in Marthasville, near the grave of his wife, Rebecca. But then the story gets muddled.

Frankfort, the state capital of Kentucky, exhumed Daniel and Rebecca 25 years later and reburied them in Frankfort Cemetery. But for years Marthasville claimed that Frankfort had dug up the wrong body. They said that the grave next to Rebecca's was already occupied when Daniel died, so he was buried at her feet. And since Daniel's relatives were angry at Frankfort for digging up Daniel, they didn't tell them about his true burial plot. They let Frankfort cart away the body next to Rebecca's, the body of a stranger.

Why would a frontiersman like Boone want to be buried in a fancy state capital cemetery anyway? The grave monument near Marthasville is out by itself, and it's worth remembering that Daniel Boone's own reason for leaving Kentucky was that it was "too crowded." Its remoteness, however, proved a disadvantage in June 2008, when its "lucky nose" bronze plaque was stolen and sold for scrap. The plaque was later replaced by one made of black granite.

In June 2010 an official document filed by the Friends of Daniel Boone's Burial Site in Missouri conceded that some of Boone's bones were dug up and moved to Kentucky, but only the "large" ones. "His heart and brain," the document said, "remain where he was buried." It also stated that Boone left Kentucky in 1799 on bad terms, and that he swore he'd rather die than set foot there again.

Since both towns now have Daniel Boone graves with worthy monuments, and since the monument is all that you get to see anyway, we say that Daniel Boone is buried in the spot easiest for you to get to.

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/2506

Peace my friend and enjoy, oh and never forget Daniel Boone was man a big man!:tu:

 

40 minutes ago, eight bits said:

There is nothing comparable for Moses. He is the leading character in an origin-myth story that very probably never happened.

 

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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@cormac mac airt

Found two carbon dates:  2700 bc corrected to 3500 BC.  And 4000 bc corrected to 4800 BC.  Unfortunately they don't say which ruin or which layer, only that these are for flood layers in Mesopotamia.  Will continue reading in case they give that info later in the article.

Doug

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4 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

@cormac mac airt

Found two carbon dates:  2700 bc corrected to 3500 BC.  And 4000 bc corrected to 4800 BC.  Unfortunately they don't say which ruin or which layer, only that these are for flood layers in Mesopotamia.  Will continue reading in case they give that info later in the article.

Doug

Can you post a link?

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33 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Reached a maximum about 6000 BP.  Getting awfully close to that 6080 figure.  I think The Flood occurred after the Gulf reached its high stand.  A few hundred years, maybe.  Woolley's 3500 BC would be 5450 BP.

But why is there no flood layer at Eridu?  It stood on the shore of the gulf.  If anybody saw a flood, it should have.  Or did the excavators see the flood layer and not recognize it.  Was Eridu really the oldest city in the area?  Might it be standing on The Flood layer?

Doug

Based on the following I would say location, location, location.....and dumb luck:

1345219290_TopographicalmapofIraq.thumb.jpg.5a9190c77d5e981e663ec5f6ca90ba64.jpg

cormac

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5 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Can you post a link?

You beat me to it Manwon. Thanks. 

cormac

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