Biblical inerrancy

[+Hammerclaw]

12 hours ago, SHaYap said:

Literally, Buddha leap over the wall... 

...

In context, Buddha's Temptation 

The history behind the recipe, the ingredients were chosen specifically not only because of its market value, there are many more choices that are equally if not more in terms of cost. 

The "dish" was specifically designed not only to titillate the taste buds, but also because the ingredients are notoriously difficult to handle with chop sticks, it is a test of one's temerity, decorum and conduct in the face of the highest level of formal State functions at the banquet table. 

It is not usually available on the menu at eateries or restaurants. 

And On that note, my dinner is now ready... 

~

 

Too bad the cooking of Kushinagara did him in. Spoiled truffles are a killer. Of course, the tale was written so he supposedly foretold his own death three months earlier. Can't have a great teacher die such an ignominious death for no reason. Reminds me of the post editing after another great teacher was nailed to a tree.

Edited September 20, 2022 by Hammerclaw

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Too bad the cooking of Kushinagara did him in. Spoiled truffles are a killer. Of course, the tale was written so he supposedly foretold his own death three months earlier.

You can't beat folklore, sometimes facts step out of the way for a good tale... 

~

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Can't have a great teacher die such an ignominious death for no reason.

A good reason is almost always impossible to find... 

~

1 hour ago, Hammerclaw said:

Reminds me of the post editing after another great teacher was nailed to a tree.

...and the tree went, "why me? "

~

[+Hammerclaw]

54 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

.and the tree went, "why me? "

No, the heart of a tree isn't in the part we see, it is in its roots wherein it's heart/soul/essence/consciousness dwells. As long as the roots survive, they will recreate what man takes.

[larryp]

On 9/15/2022 at 2:17 AM, eight bits said:

It's a medieval Greek baptismal fantasy directed at Jews who might pretend to convert in order to escape persecution.

You're talking in riddles, pal. Smoke and mirrors!!

[larryp]

On 8/18/2022 at 2:00 PM, cormac mac airt said:

Which means you lied about the Romans being responsible. Imagine that. 
cormac

YHWH

No, I didn't lie. Allow the Romans to describe how they felt about Jewish culture:

                                        The Creed of Constantinople Church

“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspirations, purifications, sanctifications, and propitiations, and fasts and New Moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances, and synagogues.  

Absolutely everything Jewish, every [TORAH] Law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be an anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.” Stefano Assemani, Acta Sanctorium Martyrum Orientalium at Occidentalium, Vol. 1, Rome 1748, page 105. [Emphasis mine]

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2022 at 7:17 AM, larryp said:

YHWH

No, I didn't lie. Allow the Romans to describe how they felt about Jewish culture:

                                        The Creed of Constantinople Church

“I renounce all customs, rites, legalisms, unleavened breads and sacrifices of lambs of the Hebrews, and all the other feasts of the Hebrews, sacrifices, prayers, aspirations, purifications, sanctifications, and propitiations, and fasts and New Moons, and Sabbaths, and superstitions, and hymns and chants, and observances, and synagogues.  

Absolutely everything Jewish, every [TORAH] Law, rite and custom and if afterwards I shall wish to deny and return to Jewish superstition, or shall be found eating with Jews, or feasting with them, or secretly conversing and condemning the Christian religion instead of openly confuting them and condemning their vain faith, then let the trembling of Cain and the leprosy of Gehazi cleave to me, as well as the legal punishments to which I acknowledge myself liable. And may I be an anathema in the world to come, and may my soul be set down with Satan and the devils.” Stefano Assemani, Acta Sanctorium Martyrum Orientalium at Occidentalium, Vol. 1, Rome 1748, page 105. [Emphasis mine]

http://www.onefaithonechurch.com/a-fraud-the-so-called-constantine-creed/

https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2010/05/17/hunting-the-wild-misquotation/

[+razman]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:42 PM, joc said:

Old age is something that happens to those who don't die in the interim.   Wisdom is something either acquired,  or not, along the journey . Old age does not make one wise...but wisdom can lead to old age. 

How does wisdom lead to old age?

[Piney]

18 minutes ago, razman said:

How does wisdom lead to old age?

It wears you down being everyone's ****ing sounding board. 

[lightly]

4 hours ago, razman said:

How does wisdom lead to old age?

 Might it be considered  wisdom  to wait for the green light at the crosswalk?  ;

[+Hammerclaw]

4 hours ago, razman said:

How does wisdom lead to old age?

Old age is what happens if one lives long enough. From one's journey through life one may or may not accrue a wealth of practical knowledge, but old age is no guarantor of wisdom. An epiphany of wisdom may happen to one at any stage of one's life, or it may never happen, at all.

Edited July 2 by Hammerclaw

[+Hammerclaw]

If one wishes to be disabused of the quaint notion of bible inerrancy, one need only read the Codex Sinaiticus, available free online. Written as early as mid-fourth century, it does not contain the last twelve verses of Mark, for instance, as well thousands upon thousands of corrections.

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

If one wishes to be disabused of the quaint notion of bible inerrancy, one need only read the Codex Sinaiticus, available free online. Written as early as mid-fourth century, it does not contain the last twelve verses of Mark, for instance, as well thousands upon thousands of corrections.

The guild has decided that Mark really ended at 16:8 anyway. Problem solved .

[+Hammerclaw]

16 minutes ago, eight bits said:

The guild has decided that Mark really ended at 16:8 anyway. Problem solved .

It's not a problem for intelligent people, just additional information. The story was already more-or-less fleshed out and common knowledge before the first Synoptic Gospel was written. 

[eight bits]

53 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It's not a problem for intelligent people, just additional information. The story was already more-or-less fleshed out and common knowledge before the first Synoptic Gospel was written. 

But the twelve verses you mention are interesting. The first six of them (16:9-14) are pretty tame, a vision for Mary Magdalene, an appearance sort of like Luke's Road to Emmaus number, and finally a joint appearance to the Eleven formerly known as the Twelve. A bit vague about how physical Jesus's resurrection might be, but nothing too terrible.

But the last six verses? Fireworks, including the one and only place in the New Testament where this is touted as a good idea:

 

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Old age is what happens if one lives long enough. From one's journey through life one may or may not accrue a wealth of practical knowledge, but old age is no guarantor of wisdom. An epiphany of wisdom may happen to one at any stage of one's life, or it may never happen, at all.

An add to: wisdom typically comes from a combo of knowledge, experience, reflection and learning from mistakes, if someone avoids seeking new knowledge or experiences, lacks self reflection or dismisses the challenges that arise in their life an ability to glean wisdom might be lacking or limited. 
 

 

[+Hammerclaw]

2 hours ago, eight bits said:

But the twelve verses you mention are interesting. The first six of them (16:9-14) are pretty tame, a vision for Mary Magdalene, an appearance sort of like Luke's Road to Emmaus number, and finally a joint appearance to the Eleven formerly known as the Twelve. A bit vague about how physical Jesus's resurrection might be, but nothing too terrible.

But the last six verses? Fireworks, including the one and only place in the New Testament where this is touted as a good idea:

 

Christianity created Herpetology?

We can take it further than that, with the Codex Washingtonianus and the Freer Logion;

Κακεινοι απελογουντο λεγοντες οτι ο αιων ουτος της ανομιας και της απιστιας υπο τον σαταναν εστιν, ο μη εων τα (τον μη εωντα?) υπο των πνευματων ακαθαρτα (-των?) την αληθειαν του θεου καταλαβεσθαι (+ και?) δυναμιν. δια τουτο αποκαλυψον σου την δικαιοσυνην ηδη, εκεινοι ελεγον τω χριστω. και ο χριστος εκεινοις προσελεγεν οτι πεπληρωται ο ὅρος των ετων της εξουσιας του σατανα, ἀλλὰ εγγιζει ἄλλα δεινα. και υπερ ων εγω αμαρτησαντων παρεδοθην εις θανατον ινα υποστρεψωσιν εις την αληθειαν και μηκετι αμαρτησωσιν ινα την εν τω ουρανω πνευματικην και αφθαρτον της δικαιοσυνης δοξαν κληρονομησωσιν.^[8]: 148

Translation:

And they excused themselves, saying, "This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or: does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now" - thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, "The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more in order to inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.^[3]: 81

Edited July 3 by Hammerclaw

[eight bits]

8 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

Christianity created Herpetology?

We can take it further than that, with the Codex Washingtonianus and the Freer Logion;

Κακεινοι απελογουντο λεγοντες οτι ο αιων ουτος της ανομιας και της απιστιας υπο τον σαταναν εστιν, ο μη εων τα (τον μη εωντα?) υπο των πνευματων ακαθαρτα (-των?) την αληθειαν του θεου καταλαβεσθαι (+ και?) δυναμιν. δια τουτο αποκαλυψον σου την δικαιοσυνην ηδη, εκεινοι ελεγον τω χριστω. και ο χριστος εκεινοις προσελεγεν οτι πεπληρωται ο ὅρος των ετων της εξουσιας του σατανα, ἀλλὰ εγγιζει ἄλλα δεινα. και υπερ ων εγω αμαρτησαντων παρεδοθην εις θανατον ινα υποστρεψωσιν εις την αληθειαν και μηκετι αμαρτησωσιν ινα την εν τω ουρανω πνευματικην και αφθαρτον της δικαιοσυνης δοξαν κληρονομησωσιν.^[8]: 148

Translation:

And they excused themselves, saying, "This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things of the spirits [or: does not allow what lies under the unclean spirits to understand the truth and power of God]. Therefore reveal thy righteousness now" - thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ replied to them, "The term of years of Satan's power has been fulfilled, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who have sinned I was delivered over to death, that they may return to the truth and sin no more in order to inherit the spiritual and incorruptible glory of righteousness which is in heaven.^[3]: 81

Freer sits between 16:14 (the end of the tame six verses) and 16:15 (the beginning of the fireworks). So far as I know, the Washingtonian is the only very old, high quality manuscript where the 12 verses of the "Long Ending" appear but not as a closed unit of text.

Among my many quixotic views, I think Mark at one time ended at verse 16:14. Or, failing that, verses 16:9-14 were at least composed separately from 16:15-20. Freer is evidence that some ancient Christian found 16:9-14 unsatisfactory as an ending and 16:15-20 ineffective as a way to fix 16:9-14's shortcoming.

More than 200 years separate the latest "respectable" estimate for the composition of Mark (~ 80 CE) and the likely dates of manufacture of our "earliest and best" extant manuscripts (300+ CE). A lot could have happened to the text of Mark during that eventful time for the Jesus movement as a whole.

Edited July 3 by eight bits

[+joc]

20 hours ago, razman said:

How does wisdom lead to old age?

Because there are so many choices one has to make everyday...in traffic, at work, at play, at rest...if we are able to avoid some 'things' by the virtue of wisdom employed on a daily basis then perhaps longevity will occur...perhaps not...it's a crap shoot.

[lightly]

At some point, getting older might not be the wisest path ?  

[lightly]

Is wisdom limited to understanding  self?        eta:  I must be an oddball, I feel almost invisible, and yet  full.*  

Edited July 4 by lightly

[Piney]

1 hour ago, lightly said:

Is wisdom limited to understanding  self?        eta:  I must be an oddball, I feel almost invisible, and yet  full.*  

Your happy with yourself so there is no need to be visible.

 

[lightly]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

Your happy with yourself so there is no need to be visible.

 

thanks Piney,  ya, my wife of 50 yrs. helps with that   ..   Always been fairly content  ?       I like to use my mind for looking Outside   and my heart for looking inside .   

[lightly]

oop,   46 years as of May 12th.     It just seems like 50 years, once in a while.   

[Wepwawet]

I cannot offer an opinion on this topic that has not otherwise been put forward by other posters, though I'll state my position as being one that believes the Bible, in this volume the Old Testament, to be a mix of some history, folk tale and invention. However, I would like to draw attention to a very recently published book on this very topic, the first of a three volume work, "A Bonfire of Inanities -The Bible Dismantled" by Paul McGrane. The author, with a DPhil from Oxford, has spend decades researching this topic after breaking out of an Ulster Protestant biblical literalist background in his youth. Apart from the precise topic, McGrane also, of necessity I think, deals with the issues of 19th Century antiquarians and early Egyptologists attempting to use what was becoming known of Egyptian history to "prove the Bible", an issue that has not yet fully dissapeared, and he singles out Egyptologist and Bible scholar Kenneth Kitchen as the main "Biblical maximalist", ie, a person who believes that the Bible is a real historical account. Kitchen without doubt knows Ancient Egypt, but is an example of a man whose great knowledge is subverted by his own religious convictions.

Edited July 8 by Wepwawet

[Crazy Horse]

Without reading any of the thread, I am inclined to say that it is not GOD that is inerrant, but mankind's understanding of the Bible...

In other words, look within for the answers, and then feel/see, how life changes!!!

You... have a direct connection with GOD, (as GOD).

And the good news is, that one only has to reach-out, to THAT, to receive, THAT.

Your choice...

At least, that is my honest experience, but don't believe me, try it for yourself..