Skeletons in the closet

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Both the Minoans and Phoenicians were excellent sailors. For them it would be a more attractive and safer way of reaching their destination because back then no one else was able to follow them.

And I have posted this before: at a certain point in prehistory pictographs of Mediterranean boats show up in Scandinavia.

Are you sure the Uralic people didn't develop them? They were Vikings before the Scandinavians.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Piney
brain fart

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, Piney said:

Are you sure the Uralic people didn't develop them? They were Vikings before the Scandinavians.

I hope I can retrace that link about the petroglyphs.

As I have shown in the Doggerland thread, depictions of boats were put on Scandinavian rock already before say 6000 bce.

But these younger particular boats looked different.

[Grim Reaper 6]

3 hours ago, Piney said:

Genetics and archaeology has shown that the second wave of IE mixed directly with the Scandinavian hunter-gathers with no Anatolian farmer mix. Proto-Germanic probably grew from this mix. 
 

All you have to do is look at the genetic studies on Eupedia and the Semitic horse **** is immediately debunked.

As for consonant shifts. They just happen without outside influence.

The Algonquian languages went from a hypothetical V to B shift as they entered the Great Lakes region from the Columbia Plateau.

 Then from a B to K shift as they entered New England . When they came down into New York it went from a B to a P shift. (Meadowood)

Then entering the Ohio Valley and to the Southeastern Coast ( Adena-Middlesex) experienced a B to G shift. 

Note there are no lone words associated with these sound shifts.

Now the Semitic theories grew out of British Isrealism. So yes. It is racist.

See the bolded above, I suspect it did and in fact Proto-Germanic eventually developed from pre-Proto-Germanic into three Germanic branches during the fifth century BC to fifth century AD: West Germanic, East Germanic and North Germanic, which however remained in contact over a considerable time, especially the Ingvaeonic languages (including English), which they arose from.

The Roots of English: Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: https://www.wondriumdaily.com/the-roots-of-english-proto-indo-european-to-proto-germanic/

Edited July 12, 2022 by Manwon Lender

[Abramelin]

18 minutes ago, Piney said:

That's what I said. They traded tin.

But why would a Med people settle in such a crappy climate.

All I can think of is small harbors that are long lost to the sea.

Even the Romans knew of the Scilly Islands, but they knew of it as one single island, and that's like 2 thousand years ago.

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

See the bolded above, I suspect it did and in fact Proto-Germanic eventually developed from pre-Proto-Germanic into three Germanic branches during the fifth century BC to fifth century AD: West Germanic, East Germanic and North Germanic, which however remained in contact over a considerable time, especially the Ingvaeonic languages (including English), which arose from.

The Roots of English: Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic: https://www.wondriumdaily.com/the-roots-of-english-proto-indo-european-to-proto-germanic/

That's more or less the accepted version.

Interesting quote from your link in relation to what I have posted concerning Minoan finds:

"The idea is that Germanic either arose in southern Scandinavia or that it arose on the mainland, somewhere around Denmark and the Elbe River."

[Abramelin]

30 minutes ago, Piney said:

The mention of Greeks and Hebrews having a common origin is a hoot! 

I read this a long time ago. A lot of "mass comparison" and Mormon hoaxes.

Jews in Kentucky! 

Lol, ok. Your answer is NO.

Well, let me then stick to Gordon's work as a linguist.

[Grim Reaper 6]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That's more or less the accepted version.

Interesting quote from your link in relation to what I have posted concerning Minoan finds:

"The idea is that Germanic either arose in southern Scandinavia or that it arose on the mainland, somewhere around Denmark and the Elbe River."

That was my understanding. Except I didn’t realize that it spit into three separate Germanic Languages which eventually over time the English language developed from!

It really interesting thanks for sharing this thread!

[Abramelin]

41 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

"The idea is that Germanic either arose in southern Scandinavia or that it arose on the mainland, somewhere around Denmark and the Elbe River."

Location of the finds:

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

As I have shown in the Doggerland thread, depictions of boats were put on Scandinavian rock already before say 6000 bce.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/ojoa.12214

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

As I have shown in the Doggerland thread, depictions of boats were put on Scandinavian rock already before say 6000 bce.

But these younger particular boats looked different.

Ancient Mediterraneans in Scandinavia; Bronze Age Trade

Bronze was imported to Scandinavia from the East Mediterranean. This trading started about 1750 BC. At just the same time amber from the Baltic started to appear in Mycenaean and Minoan graves. This gives evidence of active trading between the Mediterranean and Scandinavia. The sudden appearance of picture of large ships cut into bedrock surfaces and blocks at about the same time suggests that this trading took place via visitors arriving by ships. The size of the ships seems to preclude a stepwise transfer via the river systems between the Black Sea and the Baltic, but rather a travel over the Atlantic Sea. This calls for sea-worthy ships and knowledge in geography. In the Bronze Age, only the Mycenaean, Minoan and Phoenician cultures had such ships and such skill. Reaching this far north by 1750 BC in ships following the Atlantic coast of Europe implies that those people may as well have reached much further to the south and the west than previously assumed. Travelling along rivers and multiple river systems was one way of connecting people living far apart in the past. Another way was travelling by ships overseas. This calls for sea-worthy ships and knowledge in geography. In the Bronze Age, only the Mycenaean, Minoan and Phoenician cultures had such ships and such skill. In the Aegean and Near East, the Bronze Age began 3300-3000 years BC. For the production of bronze, both cupper and tin were needed. There were a lot of cupper to be found in the East Mediterranean region, not least on Cyprus. However, there was a shortage of tin. Therefore, tin or rather cassiterite ore had to be imported. Cassiterite ore was to be found in Great Britain, northwestern Iberia and southwest France. In Great Britain, the Bronze Age began around 2100 BC. This corresponds well with the proposed onset of tin exploitation in Cornwall (Penhallurick, 1986; Haustein et al., 2010). Trading abroad is likely to have commenced at the same time. Tin from Cornwall has been identified in Mycenaean-Minoan bronze objects. By about 1750 years BC something happened in Southern Scandinavia. Scandinavia and Central Europe suddenly stepped into the Bronze Age at about 1750 years BC. The bronze objects were imported from the Mediterranean area (Ling et al., 2014). At just the same time amber started to occur in masses in Mycenaean and Minoan graves. The provenience of that amber is shown to be the south Baltic coasts. This means that we have evidence of a simultaneous import/export exchange between Scandinavia and the Eastern Mediterranean region (Mörner & Lind, 2010). At the same time, pictures of huge ships started to be carved into the bedrock and into big blocks in Scandinavia. There are thousands of such rock carvings found and recorded. Throughout the Scandinavian Bronze Age, from 1750 to 500 BC, there is an evolutionary trend of those pictures recorded, which may even serve as chronological tool (Kaul, 2000; Ling, 2008). The ships look like nothing known in the local or regional shipbuilding tradition. They are very similar to ships of the same age occurring in the contemporaneous cultures in the Mediterranean. Not only did these cultures have such ships, they also had an advanced knowledge of geography, the shape of the Earth and the motion of the Sun. Therefore, it seems logical to propose an integrated interpretation, that people from the Mediterranean at about 1750 BC, in their excellent ships, reached all the way up to Scandinavia, introducing bronze tools to the region, exporting the valuable amber, and giving the local people reasons to start the new costume of creating rock-carvings of ships (Mörner & Lind, 2010, 2013). In southeast Sweden, we are now able to identify signs and symbols of Mediterranean origin, besides, a central Sun cult and a phallus cult that seem to lead their origin from the Aegean and Near East.

It is a well-known fact that the Sun was worshiped as a central deity in Scandinavia during the Bronze Age (Montelius, 1911; Almgren, 1927; Bröndsted, 1938). This is evident from extensive pictures in rock-carvings and ornaments on bronze objects, including the famous Sun chariot found in 1902 in the Danish peat bog at Trundholm. In recent years, we have been able to identify the occurrence of archaeoastronomical observatories in southeast Sweden (Lind, 1996, 2004; Lind & Mörner, 2010; Mörner & Lind, 2013; Mörner, 2015). In a way, it is not at all surprising, just another logical sign of the central position of the Sun cult. We are dealing with stone monuments arranged as huge calendars recording the sunrise and sunset at Summer and Winter solstice and at the Spring and Autumn equinoxes, besides the daily motions of the Sun (i.e. sundials). The 67 m long stone ship of Ales Stones rests monumentally on the crest of a hill just at the shore at the SE-tip of Sweden. It is strictly oriented with respect to the Sun’s annual motions (Lind & Mörner, 2010; Mörner, 2015) with the sunset at Summer solstice over the stem-stone and with the sunrise at Winter solstice over the stern-stone. There is a small divergence of about 40 cm with respect to a perfect alignment. Considering the long-term cyclic changes in the Earth tilt (obliquity), this deviation is consistent with a time of erection of about 700 BC, i.e. in the late Bronze Age.  Just at Ravlunda where all the amber was to be found, we have a 30 m wide stone circle termed Heimdall’s Stones (Mörner et al., 2009; Mörner & Lind, 2010). It has strict sightlines as illustrated in the figure below of Mörner et al. (2009). Today’s deviation with respect to perfect solar alignments suggests an age of about 1200-1400 BC. The individual stones are full of rock-carvings; cup marks, Sun symbols and others marks and symbols, some of which are of non-Scandinavian origin. At the north point, there is a phallus formed by three large stones. This is indicative of a phallus cult just as recorded in many rock-carvings in Sweden (Mörner & Lind, 2010)

I cannot quote everything, so read the rest here:

https://novoscriptorium.com/2019/02/23/ancient-mediterraneans-in-scandinavia-bronze-age-trade/

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

All I can think of is small harbors that are long lost to the sea.

Even the Romans knew of the Scilly Islands, but they knew of it as one single island, and that's like 2 thousand years ago.

I think it was St. Michael's Mount.

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I hope I can retrace that link about the petroglyphs.

As I have shown in the Doggerland thread, depictions of boats were put on Scandinavian rock already before say 6000 bce.

But these younger particular boats looked different.

Developments happen.

The sea going canoes of the Late Archaic folks in the Eastern U.S. had the same type of prow as the current USCG chase boats. It doesn't mean they got the design from one another.

[Abramelin]

20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Developments happen.

The sea going canoes of the Late Archaic folks in the Eastern U.S. had the same type of prow as the current USCG chase boats. It doesn't mean they got the design from one another.

And I wasn't suggesting that.

The Scandinavians built boats already many millennia ago, but around 1700 bce they started depicting boats very similar to the ones sailing around the Med during that time.

[Abramelin]

27 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think it was St. Michael's Mount.

Why?

[Piney]

On 7/11/2022 at 5:52 AM, Abramelin said:

For those willing to delve into this matter, there is a Wikipage about Theo Vennemann's theory:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_(Semitic)_languages

And a critical review:

https://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-1878/

Another review can be downloaded here.

Personally I think the Atlantic Megalithic folk were kin to the Basque, which in turn were kin to Anatolian farmers.

 The Basque were hell on sailors who reached NA before Spanish discoveries were made public.

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Personally I think the Atlantic Megalithic folk were kin to the Basque, which in turn were kin to Anatolian farmers.

 The Basque were hell on sailors who reached NA before Spanish discoveries were made public.

Is there genetic proof they did reach NA before the conquistadores/Columbus?

Btw., the Basques have always been considered to be the living descendants of the people inhabiting SW-Europe after the last ice age, but that is no longer true. They go back no further than, what was it, 5000 BP?

 

 

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Why?

It's a good location for a harbor in Cornwall and the best candidate for Ictis. Looe was a Romano-British settlement though. That's probably just as good.

 

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And I wasn't suggesting that.

The Scandinavians built boats already many millennia ago, but around 1700 bce they started depicting boats very similar to the ones sailing around the Med during that time.

People figure out what works best on their own. That's why you see similar tools and designs in unconnected places. 

[Piney]

Just now, Abramelin said:

Is there genetic proof they did reach NA before the conquistadores/Columbus?

Btw., the Basques have always been considered to be the living descendants of the people inhabiting SW-Europe after the last ice age, but that is no longer true. They go back no further than, what was it, 5000 BP?

They reached it about the same time, but were only concerned with fishing the North Atlantic. Not settling. The 2 processing stations located show they smoked, salted and split.

[Piney]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Is there genetic proof they did reach NA before the conquistadores/Columbus?

Btw., the Basques have always been considered to be the living descendants of the people inhabiting SW-Europe after the last ice age, but that is no longer true. They go back no further than, what was it, 5000 BP?

 

 

They're related to indigenous Sardinians, which is why I have my theory.

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

People figure out what works best on their own. That's why you see similar tools and designs in unconnected places. 

So you think it's just a coincidence the Scandinavians started depicting these odd looking boats at the same time people from the Med started mining for silver in their country?

And I hope you clicked on all the links I posted.

It's not just about boats.

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, Piney said:

They're related to indigenous Sardinians, which is why I have my theory.

Yeah, it is said Iberians settled in Sardinia.

Even their legends (or better: the Greek ones) say so: Norax, son of Geryon.

Edited to add:

"Nora" is a city in Sardinia.

And then we also have the Nuraghian culture.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

They reached it about the same time, but were only concerned with fishing the North Atlantic. Not settling. The 2 processing stations located show they smoked, salted and split.

Ok, please tell me if I get it right: are you saying there is proof Basque sailors discovered the Americas before Columbus and his gang?

[Abramelin]

14 minutes ago, Piney said:

They reached it about the same time, but were only concerned with fishing the North Atlantic. Not settling. The 2 processing stations located show they smoked, salted and split.

Do you have links?

 

[Abramelin]

For those still interested: we are going WAY off topic.

Sorry.

Edited to add:

This thread is, or is supposed to be, about  a Semitic influence on the proto-Germanic language.

Edited July 12, 2022 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

46 minutes ago, Piney said:

They're related to indigenous Sardinians, which is why I have my theory.

And what is your theory?