Skeletons in the closet

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Never heard of those pillars.

Btw., the "Rus", that's the Vikings as they were known along the Volga, may have encountered Turkish tribes.

These Turkish tribes may have got inspired by the runes the Vikings used.

 

I always thought it was the other way around but the Orkon was based on the Sogdian script and tribal tagmas (brands). 

[Abramelin]

21 hours ago, Piney said:

I always thought it was the other way around but the Orkon was based on the Sogdian script and tribal tagmas (brands). 

The first Nordic runes are from around 200 ce. The first Turkish runes are from around 800 ce.

And if the Negau helmet does indees carry a Germanic inscription in runes, then the first Nordic runes come from 200 bce.

But I understand there is some dispute about the Negau helmet carrying a Germanic text in runes.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The first Nordic runes are from around 200 ce. The first Turkish runes are from around 800 ce.

And if the Negau helmet does indees carry a Germanic inscription in runes, then the first Nordic runes come from 200 bce.

But I understand there is some dispute about the Negau helmet carrying a Germanic text in runes.

Some think it's Etruscan.

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

Some think it's Etruscan.

And why do they think that? Because of the shape of the runes?

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And why do they think that? Because of the shape of the runes?

Dunno. Probably.

[SHaYap]

Isn't all these deep dives into the past overlooking the influence of the rampant slave trade routes by looking away because it's too embarrassing to point it out? Slavery wasn't about making riches when it started. 

Back in those days trade was not the first thing the folks learned to get what they want. 

If they wanted milk, best take the cow, same principle with pottery, baskets or metal and everything in between. You want the fisherman, not the fish for a day. 

In a way, that's how all the "marriages" ritual were created and meant for. Along with that, you get to learn a lot of new words too, maybe learn a new way to dance too.

The mountain tribal cultural / ritual dances are quite distinct between the mountainous, island, desert and coastal regions. 

 

~

 

[Abramelin]

20 hours ago, Piney said:

Dunno. Probably.

This seems to be the latest version of the wikipage about the Negau helmet(s):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negau_helmet

It's getting confusing: was the text on the helmet Celtic written in Etruscan script?

Ok, then let's forget about the helmet.

 

You know Vennemann suggested the Germanic runes were borrowings and adaptations of the Phoenician script, and he makes an interesting case for it in his Germania Semitica. A real tome, btw, and I have read bits of it after I downloaded it.

[Abramelin]

On 8/24/2022 at 5:37 AM, SHaYap said:

Isn't all these deep dives into the past overlooking the influence of the rampant slave trade routes by looking away because it's too embarrassing to point it out? Slavery wasn't about making riches when it started. 

Back in those days trade was not the first thing the folks learned to get what they want. 

If they wanted milk, best take the cow, same principle with pottery, baskets or metal and everything in between. You want the fisherman, not the fish for a day. 

In a way, that's how all the "marriages" ritual were created and meant for. Along with that, you get to learn a lot of new words too, maybe learn a new way to dance too.

The mountain tribal cultural / ritual dances are quite distinct between the mountainous, island, desert and coastal regions. 

 

~

 

Ancient Rome might best be known for its use of slaves, but the Phoenicians were the true masters in the slave trade. First, the Phoenicians were highly skilled kidnappers. Unclaimed and unwatched women and children were often grabbed by Phoenician slave traders who travelled throughout the Mediterranean regions in search of slaves. They also kidnapped slaves from the African continent.

Over time, neighboring people became extremely upset with the Phoenicians’ habit of kidnapping people to sell in the slave markets. At that point, the Phoenician slave traders made an effort to buy, instead of take, slaves from other countries.

Prisoners of war were almost always placed into slavery. Some of the Northern tribes would sell off unwanted children. Slaves could also be cheaply bought in Egypt and sold for a higher price in other regions. People with debt were also sold into slavery.

There was no shortage of slaves, just as there was no shortage in the need to own them. The Phoenicians were the middle men in the market, buying and selling, and making the slave market one of their largest sources of income.

https://www.toptenz.net/10-things-you-probably-didnt-know-about-the-phoenicians.php?quad_cc

Another source:

https://phoenicia.org/trade.html

[SHaYap]

51 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The Phoenicians were the middle men in the market, buying and selling, and making the slave market one of their largest sources of income.

That's closer to the modern definition of capitalism form of slavery ...

I'm thinking more along the lines of... 

Quote

https://www.thehistorypress.co.uk/articles/slavery-in-history/#:~:text=The oldest known slave society,Iraq region between 6000-2000BCE.

...

The oldest known slave society was the Mesopotamian and Sumerian civilisations located in the Iran/Iraq region between 6000-2000BCE. The oldest known written reference of slavery is found in the Hammurabi Code of 1754 BCE which states "If anyone take a male or female slave of the court, or a male or female slave of a freed man, outside the city gates, he shall be put to death."

 

~

[Abramelin]

The Phoenicians caught and traded slaves, and it became an important source of their wealth. Thàt' what my source is all about.

Your source explains the right of slaves and how they were treated and whatever happened to them.

[SHaYap]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Your source explains the right of slaves and how they were treated and whatever happened to them.

Key word :

"freed men"

and 

"by the code of law"

~

[Abramelin]

15 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Key word :

"freed men"

and 

"by the code of law"

~

Well, for what it's worth: you mentioning slave trade made me consider another reason for the Phoenicians to show up in the NW-European part of the Atlantic. I had never ever considered it.

Btw., this thread still is about a suggested Semitic (Phoenician?) influence on Germanic (and Celtic?) languages.

 

And slave trade with "Northern tribes" (see post #83)... what northern tribes?

[SHaYap]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

And slave trade with "Northern tribes" (see post #83)... what northern tribes?

Sorry, It's hard for me on things like these, I have to line things up in my language and then translate. I don't really have the time to get into pretty talk. 

Obviously you know what I'm scratching at here, I'm just suggesting connecting some dots and not lose track of the speak easy due to myopic misconceptions. 

The kind of ancestral history you're pointing at here goes back further than the usual "what is known now" from "as far as is known"

Northern to you and I does not mean what it does today as was then, is what I'm getting at. 

eg: For the longest time it was thought China was too backward to know what's North or South and couldn't tell East from West. 

They just had their system lined up as ESWN instead of NSEW

As for the Phoenicians spreading out the Semitic influence, I'm just wondering how much of the Germanic, Pict / Celt were really there at the time for influencing is what I'm poking at. 

I gotta go clean up the kitchen, was my turn to cook up dinner this night... 

Cheers... 

~

[Piney]

16 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Sorry, It's hard for me on things like these, I have to line things up in my language and then translate. I don't really have the time to get into pretty talk. 

Obviously you know what I'm scratching at here, I'm just suggesting connecting some dots and not lose track of the speak easy due to myopic misconceptions. 

The kind of ancestral history you're pointing at here goes back further than the usual "what is known now" from "as far as is known"

Northern to you and I does not mean what it does today as was then, is what I'm getting at. 

eg: For the longest time it was thought China was too backward to know what's North or South and couldn't tell East from West. 

They just had their system lined up as ESWN instead of NSEW

As for the Phoenicians spreading out the Semitic influence, I'm just wondering how much of the Germanic, Pict / Celt were really there at the time for influencing is what I'm poking at. 

I gotta go clean up the kitchen, was my turn to cook up dinner this night... 

Cheers... 

~

Don't mess up the rice. 

[Abramelin]

"Easter". A Christianized pagan fertility festival featuring a rabbit holding eggs in a basket.

"Ishtar", a Canaanite fertility goddess, a goddess also known as "As(h)tarte.

"Beltaine", "Ba'al Tanit".

Cheers!

 

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

 

"Ishtar", a Canaanite fertility goddess, a goddess also known as "As(h)tarte.

 

 

Harte use to date this lovely but it went sour when she invited him out on their third date. It was to a midnight gala at the temple altar and he found he was going to be the burnt sacrifice. That is actually where her name came from too. Before she met Harte she was known as Prudence. After the altar incident it became 'make ash of Harte" and that morphed over time into Ashtarte.

[Ell]

On 7/10/2022 at 7:57 PM, Abramelin said:

It would appear that long before Something Happened to English, Something Happened to Proto-Germanic as well.

https://erenow.net/common/our-magnificent-b******-tongue/5.php

I read the linked to page. Interesting.

I do think that the Pythias part and the Phoenician parts are red herrings.

I do wonder whether the unknown language may have been not Akkadian but Sumerian?

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, Ell said:

I do wonder whether the unknown language may have been not Akkadian but Sumerian?

Not likely. The Sumerians were not known for venturing far outside their own territory.

[Piney]

12 hours ago, Abramelin said:

"Easter". A Christianized pagan fertility festival featuring a rabbit holding eggs in a basket.

"Ishtar", a Canaanite fertility goddess, a goddess also known as "As(h)tarte.

"Beltaine", "Ba'al Tanit".

Cheers!

 

Eostre first appears in the writings of Bede and Ostara, Jacob Grimm.

Laa Bealtaine sounds like a "mass comparison" connection. "Belo taine" White fire. Lithuanian "Giltine" PIE "Gwehl tene" "Fire of Death (White)

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

Eostre first appears in the writings of Bede and Ostara, Jacob Grimm.

There's more against the idea:

https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-and-eggs/

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

There's more against the idea:

https://historyforatheists.com/2017/04/easter-ishtar-eostre-and-eggs/

Looks a little shaky.

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, Piney said:

Looks a little shaky.

Maybe, and it's a site for theists, but the guy makes some good points.

He actually supports your view on it.

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Maybe, and it's a site for theists, but the guy makes some good points.

He actually supports your view on it.

I was thinking the Romans were really into Middle Eastern religion around the 1st Century and they brought a lot of that into Great Britain.

[jmccr8]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

I was thinking the Romans were really into Middle Eastern religion around the 1st Century and they brought a lot of that into Great Britain.

Hi Piney

Makes sense as they didn’t convert to Christianity till 250 years after they entered Britain.

[SHaYap]

I remember a little conversation I had with a history professor.

Consider this, he said. 

We have a tribe, who among the many gods / deities that they worshipped, a god of the mountain they revered as, let's say... "Bob"

And another tribe, way over on the other side of the valley, who also worships a god of the mountain, whom they exalted as "Tony"

Before the days of institutional / organize religions, Bob and Tony is Mountain God ... there was none of that "my" god, "your" god nonsense. 

~