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Skeletons in the closet


Abramelin

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1 minute ago, flashman7870 said:

Fair play. Not sure if this rises to the level of creole however, I was moreso referring to the Carthaginian colonies rather than their heartland. 

It's an example of Romans nòt stamping out any language resembling/derived from Phoenician. The Romans truelly hated them, as history shows.

And that hatred started when Hannibal almost conquered what was later to become the Roman Empire.

If there was à language the Romans would not have liked, than it must have been Punic.

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14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

It's an example of Romans nòt stamping out any language resembling/derived from Phoenician. The Romans truelly hated them, as history shows.

And that hatred started when Hannibal almost conquered what was later to become the Roman Empire.

If there was à language the Romans would not have liked, than it must have been Punic.

My point was only that we don't have many Phoenician creole written languages to draw on. Even in their heartland, the number of actual written texts of that vernacular creole (if creole it even be, as opposed to Phoenician with local influence) that have survived to the present day is fairly thin. And even still, what we'd really want to find evidence of a Phoenician Creole in the British Isles would be a Phoenician-Celtiberian creole in the area where we know the Phoenicians exercised substantive authority. 

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59 minutes ago, flashman7870 said:

My point was only that we don't have many Phoenician creole written languages to draw on. Even in their heartland, the number of actual written texts of that vernacular creole (if creole it even be, as opposed to Phoenician with local influence) that have survived to the present day is fairly thin. And even still, what we'd really want to find evidence of a Phoenician Creole in the British Isles would be a Phoenician-Celtiberian creole in the area where we know the Phoenicians exercised substantive authority. 

I don't think we'll find any surviving creole language based on Phoeniciam/Punic.

What a number of linguists claim is that fi. in island Celtic the way sentences are built is based on/influenced by a semitic language, plus borrowed words. In Germanic that influence has the form of ablaut/strong verbs and borrowed words.

I'm not a linguist, so you better read papers and books written by Vennemann, Mailhammer and others.

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Something I have been pondering about for a long time:

The -G- consonant, pronounced like the -ch- in Loch Ness.

Irish/Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, Dutch (the west coast),  Spanish, Berber, and Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew, Syrian), all these languages have no problems with this consonant.

Most of the rest of the world hates that consonant, or is simply unable to pronounce it properly. Maybe only a couple of Native American peoples are able to pronounce this consonant properly, but I'm not here to make the Mormons happy.

My point: could this be caused by a semitic speaking people having had an influence on the next languages: Spanish, Scottish-Irish Gaelic, Welsh, and Dutch?

Edited by Abramelin
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On 1/7/2023 at 3:24 PM, Abramelin said:

Something I have been pondering about for a long time:

The -G- consonant, pronounced like the -ch- in Loch Ness.

Irish/Scottish Gaelic, Welsh, Dutch (the west coast),  Spanish, Berber, and Semitic languages (Arabic, Hebrew, Syrian), all these languages have no problems with this consonant.

Most of the rest of the world hates that consonant, or is simply unable to pronounce it properly. Maybe only a couple of Native American peoples are able to pronounce this consonant properly, but I'm not here to make the Mormons happy.

My point: could this be caused by a semitic speaking people having had an influence on the next languages: Spanish, Scottish-Irish Gaelic, Welsh, and Dutch?

"hk" spelled "x" like the German "ach".........

Uh oh...... the Mormons were right. :unsure2:

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On 12/23/2022 at 9:41 PM, Abramelin said:

I'm not sure, but I think I remember that that reasoning was based on there being navigatable ice lakes bordering the ice sheats; one could almost travel on these lakes from what's now England to northern Siberia:

Maximum-ice-sheet-and-lake-extent-in-nor

 

6242E478-A35D-4203-8806-9D00865C2007.jpeg

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21 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

 

6242E478-A35D-4203-8806-9D00865C2007.jpeg

Yep, I know that map.

It's a quackmire of theories about who used what language where and when.

And then a Vennemann shows up - a guy much loved by Piney and Jaylemurph - who thinks that a kind of (?) Semitic language, aka Semitidic or Atlantic, was spoken in roughly the area of Iberia and the western Mediterranean. And that this language influenced Germanic and Island Celtic languages.

If you try to read ànd understand all those competing theories, your brains will slowly start to melt down and exit through ears and nose.

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1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Yep, I know that map.

It's a quackmire of theories about who used what language where and when.

And then a Vennemann shows up - a guy much loved by Piney and Jaylemurph - who thinks that a kind of (?) Semitic language, aka Semitidic or Atlantic, was spoken in roughly the area of Iberia and the western Mediterranean. And that this language influenced Germanic and Island Celtic languages.

If you try to read ànd understand all those competing theories, your brains will slowly start to melt down and exit through ears and nose.

This was meant to a response in the Skara Brae thread.

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1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

This was meant to a response in the Skara Brae thread.

Well, then it was a lucky mishap: this same or similar map is sometimes used in linguistic studies.

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On 1/12/2023 at 4:58 PM, Abramelin said:

Well, then it was a lucky mishap: this same or similar map is sometimes used in linguistic studies.

I knew I had saved a couple of similar maps:

url(62).jpg.2e67edd95aa5af19ddbc9fe1383c7e8d.jpg

Atlantic.jpg.2c8bc5d0ce684f460a635fd6bf42a61f.jpg

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On 1/12/2023 at 4:54 PM, Abramelin said:

Yep, I know that map.

It's a quackmire of theories about who used what language where and when.

And then a Vennemann shows up - a guy much loved by Piney and Jaylemurph - who thinks that a kind of (?) Semitic language, aka Semitidic or Atlantic, was spoken in roughly the area of Iberia and the western Mediterranean. And that this language influenced Germanic and Island Celtic languages.

If you try to read ànd understand all those competing theories, your brains will slowly start to melt down and exit through ears and nose.

This is Vennemanns initual theory, but he changed it later on. Here it is anyway:

https://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-1878/

 

"From about 5000 BC onward, Semitidic peoples, bearers of the megalithic culture, moved north along the Atlantic coast to all the islands and up the navigable rivers as seafaring colonizers, until they reached southern Sweden in the middle of the third millennium. ...At the dawn of history we find the western Mediterranean dominated by Phoenicians, a Semitic people. ...I assume the megalithic culture to have spread along the Atlantic coast from the south and west of the Iberian Peninsula and France (5th millennium) via Ireland and Britain (4th millennium) all the way to Sweden (3rd millennium) and thus to have its origin in the coastal regions between the western Mediterranean and the Atlantic, where I locate the homeland of the Semitic peoples."

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On 1/14/2023 at 11:22 AM, Abramelin said:

This is Vennemanns initual theory, but he changed it later on. Here it is anyway:

https://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-1878/

 

"From about 5000 BC onward, Semitidic peoples, bearers of the megalithic culture, moved north along the Atlantic coast to all the islands and up the navigable rivers as seafaring colonizers, until they reached southern Sweden in the middle of the third millennium. ...At the dawn of history we find the western Mediterranean dominated by Phoenicians, a Semitic people. ...I assume the megalithic culture to have spread along the Atlantic coast from the south and west of the Iberian Peninsula and France (5th millennium) via Ireland and Britain (4th millennium) all the way to Sweden (3rd millennium) and thus to have its origin in the coastal regions between the western Mediterranean and the Atlantic, where I locate the homeland of the Semitic peoples."

Phoenicians didn't dominate until after the Bronze Age collapse when a void was left for them by the loss of Mycaenean trade empire. I got that directly from Wiki.

The Berbers were a back flow into Africa by Middle Eastern farmers.

C'mon bro. Read a bit out further. 

 

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1 hour ago, Piney said:

Phoenicians didn't dominate until after the Bronze Age collapse when a void was left for them by the loss of Mycaenean trade empire. I got that directly from Wiki.

The Berbers were a back flow into Africa by Middle Eastern farmers.

C'mon bro. Read a bit out further.

Man, stop spoiling my dreams. :P

Berbers may have "backflowed" into Africa, but that happened sufficiently early in pre-history.

And Vennemann already 'corrected' his view expressed in the quote in my former post.

And... you know what I think of the Minoans. Maybe no need for any Phoenicians in this scenario.

But then we have Tartessos: not one single linguist has a clue of what these south-western Iberians used as their language. Some - like Koch - thought it was Celtic or Celtiberian, but no other linguist agrees. Others thought it was Vasconic, but, again, not accepted by every other linguist.

Considering the Berber occupied the area south of Iberia for thousands of years, even after their 'backflow' into Africa, it is even possible Tartessian is a related language, and at that time much closer to Semitic languages.

Edited to add from the wikipage about the Berber:

"The Maghreb region in northwestern Africa is believed to have been inhabited by Berbers from at least 10,000 BC.[43] "
 
I think that is a bit too optimistic, but 5,000 bce sounds a bit more realistic.

 

Edited by Abramelin
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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Man, stop spoiling my dreams. :P

Berbers may have "backflowed" into Africa, but that happened sufficiently early in pre-history.

And Vennemann already 'corrected' his view expressed in the quote in my former post.

And... you know what I think of the Minoans. Maybe no need for any Phoenicians in this scenario.

But then we have Tartessos: not one single linguist has a clue of what these south-western Iberians used as their language. Some - like Koch - thought it was Celtic or Celtiberian, but no other linguist agrees. Others thought it was Vasconic, but, again, not accepted by every other linguist.

Considering the Berber occupied the area south of Iberia for thousands of years, even after their 'backflow' into Africa, it is even possible Tartessian is a related language, and at that time much closer to Semitic languages.

Edited to add from the wikipage about the Berber:

"The Maghreb region in northwestern Africa is believed to have been inhabited by Berbers from at least 10,000 BC.[43] "
 
I think that is a bit too optimistic, but 5,000 bce sounds a bit more realistic.

 

I wish I can remember where I saw that bronze chemical analysis study.....

Anyhow, I was thinking about Cornish tin compared to the large tin deposit in Iberia, which is really a huge vein and the tin the Eastern Iranians were bringing out of modern Uzbekistan. 

It doesn't make sense to me because nobody would waste resources for a lower quality product, there is less of, farther away.

I wouldn't harvest a piece in PA because it was junk and wouldn't pay the trucking when I can harvest a better piece in Southern New Jersey which I would make a profit on.

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3 minutes ago, Piney said:

I wish I can remember where I saw that bronze chemical analysis study.....

Heh, I have it stored, but don't ask me where.

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

Anyhow, I was thinking about Cornish tin compared to the large tin deposit in Iberia, which is really a huge vein and the tin the Eastern Iranians were bringing out of modern Uzbekistan. 

The Cornish tin was very pure. Maybe that's why.

 

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"What happened to English before it was English?"

I know what happened after. No one speaks it any longer. Idindunuthin! 

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  • 1 month later...
On 1/14/2023 at 5:22 PM, Abramelin said:

This is Vennemanns initual theory, but he changed it later on. Here it is anyway:

https://linguistlist.org/issues/15/15-1878/

 

"From about 5000 BC onward, Semitidic peoples, bearers of the megalithic culture, moved north along the Atlantic coast to all the islands and up the navigable rivers as seafaring colonizers, until they reached southern Sweden in the middle of the third millennium. ...At the dawn of history we find the western Mediterranean dominated by Phoenicians, a Semitic people. ...I assume the megalithic culture to have spread along the Atlantic coast from the south and west of the Iberian Peninsula and France (5th millennium) via Ireland and Britain (4th millennium) all the way to Sweden (3rd millennium) and thus to have its origin in the coastal regions between the western Mediterranean and the Atlantic, where I locate the homeland of the Semitic peoples."

I think I may have found something related:

 

This Petroglyph Captures the Moment when Atlantic and Mediterranean Cultures Met

Archaeologists are beginning to change their views of the contact made between Atlantic and Mediterranean cultures before the Romans, says Xosé Gago, with increasing evidence that connections were earlier and more intense than previously thought.

The Atlantic coast of northern Spain has an unusually high concentration of Bronze Age rock art, and among them is a unique piece of evidence: a carving of a boat unlike any other seen on the Atlantic coast.

This rock art panel is known as Auga dos Cebros. But although there are many depictions of boats in Atlantic Europe, this one is unique, and vital for research.

(...)

These features led the researcher María Ruiz-Gálvez Priego to relate the Auga dos Cebros boat with Aegean models from the 2000BC., mainly with those found on Cretan stamps.

As Goberna rightly points out, the lack of detail on the Auga dos Cebros petroglyph prevents us from establishing a concrete reference model, although we can safely say the boat has clear points in common with Mediterranean boats, from Egypt to Tyre, and particularly with Aegean models.

https://digventures.com/2015/10/this-petroglyph-captures-the-moment-when-atlantic-and-mediterranean-cultures-met/amp/

Edited by Abramelin
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So, Vennemann was 'only' a couple of millennia off.

What were these eastern Mediterreanean boats doing in NW-Iberia around 2000 bce?

Were it Minoans? Think Aartun.

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On 2/26/2023 at 2:15 PM, Abramelin said:

So, Vennemann was 'only' a couple of millennia off.

What were these eastern Mediterreanean boats doing in NW-Iberia around 2000 bce?

Were it Minoans? Think Aartun.

I think it was Minoans.

Vennemann's newer theory was a Semitic base in Celtic. But if your compare Celtic to Latin or Sicilian Italian there is nothing strange. Just different loanwords from different neighbors. 

Note: The Proto-Italo-Celtic folks were the Urnfield Culture. 

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5 hours ago, Piney said:

I think it was Minoans.

Vennemann's newer theory was a Semitic base in Celtic. But if your compare Celtic to Latin or Sicilian Italian there is nothing strange. Just different loanwords from different neighbors. 

Note: The Proto-Italo-Celtic folks were the Urnfield Culture. 

261px-Europe_late_bronze_age.png

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16 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

261px-Europe_late_bronze_age.png

Exactly. It's different than the Atlantic Bronze System and he doesn't take the Italic Languages into account, let alone mention them in his theory on the Celtic one. Which I find strange on top of poor research.

 

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A Mediterranean (Phoenician/Punic?) anchor stock of the fifth to mid-second century BC found off the coast of Britain

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/08/a-mediterranean-anchor.html?m=1

 

Some possible Phoenician/Punic names in Britain and Ireland

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2016/12/punic-names-britain.html?m=1

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Green exaggerates Coates' study In 'A Toponomastic Contribution to the Linguistic Prehistory of the British Isles' Richard Coates presents many theories.

I like the idea that the Punic was actually introduced by Iberian immigrants which is more likely considering how trade routes and the genetics work. 

 The paper is open access online. Have fun slugging through it. 

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1 minute ago, Piney said:

Green exaggerates Coates' study In 'A Toponomastic Contribution to the Linguistic Prehistory of the British Isles' Richard Coates presents many theories.

I like the idea that the Punic was actually introduced by Iberian immigrants which is more likely considering how trade routes and the genetics work. 

 The paper is open access online. Have fun slugging through it. 

 

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

A Mediterranean (Phoenician/Punic?) anchor stock of the fifth to mid-second century BC found off the coast of Britain

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/08/a-mediterranean-anchor.html?m=1

 

Some possible Phoenician/Punic names in Britain and Ireland

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2016/12/punic-names-britain.html?m=1

The anchor is Roman....:whistle:

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