Skeletons in the closet

[Abramelin]

11 minutes ago, Piney said:

The anchor is Roman....

It doesn't say so in the article.

[Thanos5150]

28 minutes ago, Piney said:

The anchor is Roman....

The Romans did not have direct contact with Britain until the mid 1st century BC under Julius Caesar. The anchor dates to the 5th-2nd centuries BC and is described as "pre-Roman".    

Edited March 4, 2023 by Thanos5150

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

The Romans did not have direct contact with Britain until the mid 1st century BC under Julius Caesar. The anchor dates to the 5th-2nd centuries BC and is described as "pre-Roman".    

My mistake. I was looking at the wrong paper.

Mediterranean was the description. It could be Greek, whose voyages possibly did go that far. It also could of been a Iberian trader who used a Greek ship or anchor.

 

19 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

It doesn't say so in the article.

She's a Medievalist who lied about what Coates wrote.

I gave you the title of the actual paper. It's 40 pages and extremely technical. He gave no opinion. Just alternative views. 

[Abramelin]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

Mediterranean was the description. It could be Greek, whose voyages possibly did go that far. It also could of been a Iberian trader who used a Greek ship or anchor.

Not likely. The Iberian trader would have been a Carthagian or a Punic/Phoenician. Punics had settled in SW-Iberia for many centuries.

Pythes went overland across France to the Channel, and continued, from thère, with his voyage.

[Piney]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Not likely. The Iberian trader would have been a Carthagian or a Punic/Phoenician. Punics had settled in SW-Iberia 

And the Iberian Pyrite Belt has more of and a better quality tin. So why waste the effort.

Of course there was Irish gold.

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, Piney said:

And the Iberian Pyrite Belt has more of and a better quality tin. So why waste the effort.

Of course there was Irish gold.

Amber in the North Sea area and the Baltic?

As far as I remember the tin from Cornwall was easily accessable.

[Piney]

6 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Amber in the North Sea area and the Baltic?

As far as I remember the tin from Cornwall was easily accessable.

After reading Coates' paper. He used the term loanwords. Not substrate. There's a big difference.

Northeastern Algonquian has Siouian loanwords. But not a substrate. 

Caitlin confuses the two. A common mistake among people who don't study language.

I can go with Punic loanwords in Celtic considering the contact and there was a possible Celtic migration from Spain to Ireland at least according to legend and hints from ancient writing.

 

[Abramelin]

12 minutes ago, Piney said:

After reading Coates' paper. He used the term loanwords. Not substrate. There's a big difference.

Northeastern Algonquian has Siouian loanwords. But not a substrate. 

Caitlin confuses the two. A common mistake among people who don't study language.

I can go with Punic loanwords in Celtic considering the contact and there was a possible Celtic migration from Spain to Ireland at least according to legend and hints from ancient writing.

 

She also used Vennemann as a source for her article. Maybe she confused the two (Coates & Vennemann).

 

[Abramelin]

There is isotopic evidence to support that tin ingots found off the coast of Haifa, Israel were supplied from Cornwall.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon

 

Evidence of direct tin trade between Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean has been demonstrated through the analysis of tin ingots dated to the 13th-12th centuries BC from sites in Israel, Turkey and modern-day Greece; tin ingots from Israel, for example, have been found to share chemical composition with tin from Cornwall and Devon (Great Britain).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

She also used Vennemann as a source for her article. Maybe she confused the two (Coates & Vennemann).

 

 Coates' paper uses Vennemann, she almost did a cut and paste on him when mentioning Vennemann. 

[Piney]

3 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

There is isotopic evidence to support that tin ingots found off the coast of Haifa, Israel were supplied from Cornwall.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon

 

Evidence of direct tin trade between Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean has been demonstrated through the analysis of tin ingots dated to the 13th-12th centuries BC from sites in Israel, Turkey and modern-day Greece; tin ingots from Israel, for example, have been found to share chemical composition with tin from Cornwall and Devon (Great Britain).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

But the Middle East was also supplied by Iranians bringing it from Hindu Kush according to recent studies

It still doesn't show the evidence of a substrate. Which has to be introduced in a major mixup when a culture is first coming together.

 

[Piney]

14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

There is isotopic evidence to support that tin ingots found off the coast of Haifa, Israel were supplied from Cornwall.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining_in_Cornwall_and_Devon

 

Evidence of direct tin trade between Europe and the Eastern Mediterranean has been demonstrated through the analysis of tin ingots dated to the 13th-12th centuries BC from sites in Israel, Turkey and modern-day Greece; tin ingots from Israel, for example, have been found to share chemical composition with tin from Cornwall and Devon (Great Britain).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

University of Chicago 'Bronze Age source of Tin Discovered' -William Harms 

Penn Museum 'Tin in the Ancient Near East' Robert Maddin and a few others

[Abramelin]

8 minutes ago, Piney said:

But the Middle East was also supplied by Iranians bringing it from Hindu Kush according to recent studies

It still doesn't show the evidence of a substrate. Which has to be introduced in a major mixup when a culture is first coming together.

 

My links to the tin sources in Cornwall/Devon prove people from the eastern Mediterranean used tin from that area.

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

University of Chicago 'Bronze Age source of Tin Discovered' -William Harms 

Penn Museum 'Tin in the Ancient Near East' Robert Maddin and a few others

Check the reference list from my second link: your 2 against several dozen of that link:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_sources_and_trade_in_ancient_times

[Abramelin]

I found something worth posting in this thread about a possible Semitic linguistic influence on Germanic language.

The Dutch are known for their "dikes". Ramparts to protect them from the threatening sea.

Dike - dayek - dayeq

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1785.htm

dayeq: bulwark, siege wall

Original Word: דָּיֵק
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: dayeq
Phonetic Spelling: (daw-yake')
Definition: bulwark, siege wall

[Abramelin]

Well, it must be just me, but that semitic word for bulwark/siege wall sounds really similar to "dike".

And not only does it sound similar (or better: exactly the same), but it also means a structure built as a defence.

[Piney]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:04 PM, Abramelin said:

I found something worth posting in this thread about a possible Semitic linguistic influence on Germanic language.

The Dutch are known for their "dikes". Ramparts to protect them from the threatening sea.

Dike - dayek - dayeq

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1785.htm

dayeq: bulwark, siege wall

Original Word: דָּיֵק
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: dayeq
Phonetic Spelling: (daw-yake')
Definition: bulwark, siege wall

But did that word originate in the Middle East with the Hittites, who were IE? 

Because the term is also Proto-IE, long before the Phoenicians existed as a group and the IE were still nomads.

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, Piney said:

But did that word originate in the Middle East with the Hittites, who were IE? 

Because the term is also Proto-IE, long before the Phoenicians existed as a group and the IE were still nomads.

It must have originated with people living in settlements near rivers or the sea

So yes, it could have originated with the Hittites. Or with their southern neighbours the Canaanites and Mesopotamians.

[Piney]

22 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

It must have originated with people living in settlements near rivers or the sea

So yes, it could have originated with the Hittites. Or with their southern neighbours the Canaanites and Mesopotamians.

The ancestral Canaanites, when they were still herders didn't build fortifications. The Proto-Indo European Yamnaya did next to rivers.

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, Piney said:

The ancestral Canaanites, when they were still herders didn't build fortifications. The Proto-Indo European Yamnaya did next to rivers.

The Yamnaya were nomads. Why would they build dikes? They would have moved on.

[Piney]

26 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

The Yamnaya were nomads. Why would they build dikes? They would have moved on.

They had semi-permanent seasonal settlements by rivers and a fishing and boat culture also. Spawning runs only happen in specific locations. Same with specific grazing lands in rotation Ergo "tethered nomads". Also every nomadic culture has seasonal "home bases". They didn't wander aimlessly. 

Reconstructed PIE also shows this word for dike. Which also could be a weir.

So how would they have contact with Semites while still in the Pontic-Caspian forest-steppe zones. 

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, Piney said:

So how would they have contact with Semites while still in the Pontic-Caspian forest-steppe zones. 

???

I never suggested that.

What I was thinking of is, that Phoenicians/Punics entered the North Sea area in search of amber.

They encountered people living on the southern and eastern (Danish) coasts of the North Sea. These people had built bulwarks against the emproaching sea. The Canaanites called them "dayek" because they made them remember their own bulwarks.

 

[docyabut2]

Did our  languages come from the click  languages?

https://theweek.com/articles/457951/brief-history-african-click-words#:~:text=There are two groups of,the southern part of Africa.

[Abramelin]

10 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Did our  languages come from the click  languages?

https://theweek.com/articles/457951/brief-history-african-click-words#:~:text=There are two groups of,the southern part of Africa.

I don't think so.

It's an isolated language.

No other language uses these 'clicks'.

And, it has nothing to do with the topic. Sorry.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Abramelin

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

???

I never suggested that.

What I was thinking of is, that Phoenicians/Punics entered the North Sea area in search of amber.

They encountered people living on the southern and eastern (Danish) coasts of the North Sea. These people had built bulwarks against the emproaching sea. The Canaanites called them "dayek" because they made them remember their own bulwarks.

 

So what did the people who built them call them and why would they change their own term?