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Posted (edited)

It’s true that people of English heritage struggle to pronounce words in the Welsh language. This struggle stems from changes in the palate of the mouth due to different diets.

 

A YouTube video shows how Gaelic spread from Europe into England with a Timelapse commencing in 1000bc.

My pre-English heritage is from Jutland.

Edited by Frank_Hoenedge
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17 hours ago, Piney said:

I was thinking the Romans were really into Middle Eastern religion around the 1st Century and they brought a lot of that into Great Britain.

The Romans adopted many gods from tribes they conquered, and often gave them a Latin name. For instance Odin/Wodan became Mercury.

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Hallstat)

2 hours ago, Frank_Hoenedge said:

It’s true that people of English heritage struggle to pronounce words in the Welsh language. This struggle stems from changes in the palate of the mouth due to different diets.

 

A YouTube video shows how Gaelic spread from Europe into England with a Timelapse commencing in 1000bc.

My pre-English heritage is from Jutland.

Your video shows an outdated theory (the Hallstat theory) about the origins of the Celtic language.

Nowadays it is assumed that the Celtic language originated in Iberia & southern France near the Pyrennees.

 

And could you please post a link to a site about that diet-based speech impediment? That's a new one for me, heh.

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Posted (edited)

I didn’t know the difference with the Hallstat theory. It’s clear that the Breton tongues survived the Anglo-Saxon convergence. 
 

A few links, for your linguistic acumen to peruse, regarding palate formation affected by diet and how that might influence spoken languages …..whilst trying to find the articles I’d read (2 iirc)

 

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1702586114

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-dawn-farming-changed-our-mouths-worst-180954167/

 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/11/111122112032.htm


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6175966/

 

This one details the modern changes:

 

From MPG.DE

 

The original I’m drawing from must have been from last year as I was working in Wales and learning a few phrases like Diolch am y gwaith when I read it. 
 

closest I can find is: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/06/210623144901.htm

 

Theres far too much fluff (I do, I get that I’m doing the same) on the internet. My lot came from Jutland, the name originally meant good craft and we ran Devon for 400 years but it’s still cited as a Saxon province (didn’t fall to the vikings either)

Edited by Frank_Hoenedge
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On 8/29/2022 at 6:02 PM, Frank_Hoenedge said:

A few links, for your linguistic acumen to peruse, regarding palate formation affected by diet and how that might influence spoken languages …

For me it applied a lot more context for the story of Manu (Mannus) and Yemo. Even as far as to sway my beliefs on the topic of the Gorgon Medusa representing the nexus of society before whom men stopped their careers until she was defeated by a mimic (a man with a mirror to show her her true self, which is a metaphor for taking a glimpse of her psyche and meeting her eye to eye with it by “stooping to her level”, through stupor)

 

Context: Mannus was regarded as the ancestor of all Germanic tribes. Yemo was his twin brother (later Ymir). The most popular recirculation of the story (A Proto-Indo-European creation myth) came from a relatively safe zone on the surface of the world, from a climate perspective, Iran.


For me, the complex serpent of ancestry takes utterances from various hominids over the ages and attempts to make a “Kodak moment” with a story such and Manu and Yemo, similar to religious time compression to assist in the furtherance of society (the egg) by the older members (the serpent). Which would be an original sin in the form of rapture. 


Subsequently, before English was English various changes took the old stories and gave them new sounds, with the same power of meaning (a brainwave construct, conduced through speaking and listening) behind those sounds.

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As this is still about some Semitic influence on the Germanic languages, I want to add to that idea.

Gadir - gather

I couldn't find anything proto-Germanic for the English 'gather' or Dutch 'gader'.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gather#etymonlinev1311

But there is a possible link to a Phoenician word not even a Vennemann or a Mailhammer had thought of: gdr, or Gadir, the original name of presentday Cadiz in Spain (which is based on the Latin 'Gades', which in its turn is based on Phoenician 'Qadesh', or 'holy', 'sacred').

The Phoenician word gdr/gadir basically means 'enclosure'. And more basically: together.

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3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

As this is still about some Semitic influence on the Germanic languages, I want to add to that idea.

Gadir - gather

I couldn't find anything proto-Germanic for the English 'gather' or Dutch 'gader'.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gather#etymonlinev1311

But there is a possible link to a Phoenician word not even a Vennemann or a Mailhammer had thought of: gdr, or Gadir, the original name of presentday Cadiz in Spain (which is based on the Latin 'Gades', which in its turn is based on Phoenician 'Qadesh', or 'holy', 'sacred').

The Phoenician word gdr/gadir basically means 'enclosure'. And more basically: together.

PIE "*h ger"   To gather, flock, herd

Proto-German "kurpa" sic.

Proto- Slavic "gromada"

Greek "agora" ( h gor eh) 

Latin "grex"

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19 hours ago, Piney said:

PIE "*h ger"   To gather, flock, herd

Proto-German "kurpa" sic.

Proto- Slavic "gromada"

Greek "agora" ( h gor eh) 

Latin "grex"

You'll have to admit that your post is kind of a desparate attempt - not by you, but by the ones who came up with the etymologies you posted - to explain 'gader' or 'gather' in a 'Germanic' way. They don't make sense.

When you are willing to accept that Phoenicians may have had some influence on Proto-Germanic - by the simple reason they were merchants and explorers, things get a lot more easy to explain.

What do you know about 'ablaut'?

 

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1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

You'll have to admit that your post is kind of a desparate attempt - not by you, but by the ones who came up with the etymologies you posted - to explain 'gader' or 'gather' in a 'Germanic' way. They don't make sense.

When you are willing to accept that Phoenicians may have had some influence on Proto-Germanic - by the simple reason they were merchants and explorers, things get a lot more easy to explain.

What do you know about 'ablaut'?

 

Verb changes? Something inherited directly from PIE. There aren't any in the Asian languages I speak.

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10 minutes ago, Piney said:

Verb changes? Something inherited directly from PIE. There aren't any in the Asian languages I speak.

But there are in Semitic languages.

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24 minutes ago, Piney said:

Something inherited directly from PIE.

I'd like to see a link to that.

As far as I know, Germanic languages are the only ones of the PIE languages that use ablaut.

Edited by Abramelin
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38 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'd like to see a link to that.

As far as I know, Germanic languages are the only ones of the PIE languages that use ablaut.

Glottopedia and a Wiki article called 'Indo-European Ablaut'.

I Have a Cambridge paper somewhere. If I find it I'll give you a title. 

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16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I'd like to see a link to that.

As far as I know, Germanic languages are the only ones of the PIE languages that use ablaut.

I was thinking about the way the North American trade routes worked where the specific trader only went so far. This would be more economically feasible. So in my opinion the Phoenicians never went further than Spain and the trade goods were brought down from Britain.

The amber route also cut through the center of Europe. Leaving them out of it and making their cultural influences in the German and Baltic areas nil. But that's just a opinion.

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5 hours ago, Piney said:

I was thinking about the way the North American trade routes worked where the specific trader only went so far. This would be more economically feasible. So in my opinion the Phoenicians never went further than Spain and the trade goods were brought down from Britain.

The amber route also cut through the center of Europe. Leaving them out of it and making their cultural influences in the German and Baltic areas nil. But that's just a opinion.

You are forgetting something: the Phoenicians were traders ànd explorers, searching for the source of the tradewares they received by land routes.

They wanted to monopolize sea trade, or any trade for that matter. But the sea was their real home. Get to the source of the product, trade directly with those who deliver the product, and you get a monopoly.

According to Strabo the Phoenicians were willing to run their ships aground when they knew they were being followed by Greeks or Romans.

And you seem to forget my post about the Isle of Thanet where so many Phoenician coins were found:

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/04/thanet-tanit-and-the-phoenicians.html?m=1

CarthaginianCoins-500x463(2).png.541b46b67736dc82c17de27054dee81f.png

 

I'm pretty sure they visited the North Sea, and not just because of the language thing.

And then, last but not least, there are the Minoans before them. These Minoans very probably - as I have posted about in this thread - visited the German Bight and Norway a millennium or more before the Phoenicians.

And, like I also posted before, they may have used the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterrenean: a Semite language:

https://jarnaes.wordpress.com/1-minoan-crete-linear-a/

Edited by Abramelin
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Technically speaking, Carthage is Phoenician... Or as part of Sicily, known to Rome, as "Punic"

Quote
Formation and characteristic of the empire  Carthage was a settlement in modern Tunisia that later became a city-state and then an empire.

~

 

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4 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

Technically speaking, Carthage is Phoenician... Or as part of Sicily, known to Rome, as "Punic"

~

 

We went past Wiki ages ago, heh.

It's not just thìs thread.

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3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You are forgetting something: the Phoenicians were traders ànd explorers, searching for the source of the tradewares they received by land routes.

They wanted to monopolize sea trade, or any trade for that matter. But the sea was their real home. Get to the source of the product, trade directly with those who deliver the product, and you get a monopoly.

According to Strabo the Phoenicians were willing to run their ships aground when they knew they were being followed by Greeks or Romans.

And you seem to forget my post about the Isle of Thanet where so many Phoenician coins were found:

https://www.caitlingreen.org/2015/04/thanet-tanit-and-the-phoenicians.html?m=1

CarthaginianCoins-500x463(2).png.541b46b67736dc82c17de27054dee81f.png

 

I'm pretty sure they visited the North Sea, and not just because of the language thing.

And then, last but not least, there are the Minoans before them. These Minoans very probably - as I have posted about in this thread - visited the German Bight and Norway a millennium or more before the Phoenicians.

And, like I also posted before, they may have used the lingua franca of the eastern Mediterrenean: a Semite language:

https://jarnaes.wordpress.com/1-minoan-crete-linear-a/

I still want more evidence. Like the actual remains of a port of call. Coins, like other articles are carried in trade routes and that random inscription doesn't "feel right" to me. 

I have no doubts about the Carthaginians having contact with Britain though because Britain had contact with Spain.

Edited by Piney
Atlantis is a brain fart
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After the fall of Syracuse, Sicily and the destruction of Carthage, the Roman frontier was flooded with Punic slaves

~

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7 hours ago, SHaYap said:

After the fall of Syracuse, Sicily and the destruction of Carthage, the Roman frontier was flooded with Punic slaves

~

Who could of been carried up the Amber Road. But would of had no influence on the Germanic languages or wrote in linear A.

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21 hours ago, Piney said:

I still want more evidence. Like the actual remains of a port of call. Coins, like other articles are carried in trade routes

The port of call would have been the isle of Thanet  where a big concentration of Phoenician coins were found.

21 hours ago, Piney said:

and that random inscription doesn't "feel right" to me. 

You mean the Linear A inscription in Kongsberg, Norway.

Well, tell me why it 'feels wrong'.

21 hours ago, Piney said:

I have no doubts about the Carthaginians having contact with Britain though because Britain had contact with Spain.

Ehh, so? You are telling me I was right all along??

What you call "Spain" got its name from the Phoenicians like I posted before, and many times.

The Phoenicians added to and advanced the Tartessian culture, a culture that most probably was in contact with Britain even before the Phoenicians showed up. One reason could have been tin. And the Phoenicians smelled tin and trade, and took over from the Tartessians.

If we have to believe Strabo, the Tartessian/Tardetulian culture was ancient even before the settlement of the Phoenicians in their country.

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16 hours ago, SHaYap said:

After the fall of Syracuse, Sicily and the destruction of Carthage, the Roman frontier was flooded with Punic slaves

~

But the Semitic contact with Germanic (and Celtic) tribes and moment of influence on Germanic took place long before that.

Either by the Minoans or by the Phoenicians.

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9 hours ago, Piney said:

Who could of been carried up the Amber Road. But would of had no influence on the Germanic languages or wrote in linear A.

Why - if this scenario is true, which I doubt - could these Punic slaves not have had any influence on the Germanic languages?

-

Btw., Linear A was used by the Minoans, not by the Phoenicians or Punics.

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3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Why - if this scenario is true, which I doubt - could these Punic slaves not have had any influence on the Germanic languages?

-

Btw., Linear A was used by the Minoans, not by the Phoenicians or Punics.

I meant the Linear A inscription in Norway. It feels like it was faked. I forgot where Minoan tin came from. Oxus I think. But it didn't come from Cornwall or Erzgebirge.

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4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

But the Semitic contact with Germanic (and Celtic) tribes and moment of influence on Germanic took place long before that.

Either by the Minoans or by the Phoenicians.

From the looks of the ancient mining maps the tin deposit in Spain was far larger and of a superior quality than Cornwall. So the Phoenicians wouldn't waste the effort. 

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