Skeletons in the closet

December 6, 2022

50 minutes ago, Swede said:

Consider the source:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ior_Bock

.

And that is why i directed my comments to Abramelin.

The source says that when you put pi in a pole you get people. Or that a long time ago there were persons and perdaughters. Or that the letter C means or represents Skara, or the moon sickle...

Old Norse

Verb

skæra

first-person singular past subjunctive active of skera

Old Swedish

Alternative forms

skiæra

Etymology

From Old Norse skera, from Proto-Germanic *skeraną.

Verb

skæra

to cut, to shear

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skæra

December 7, 2022

7 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

And that is why i directed my comments to Abramelin.

The source says that when you put pi in a pole you get people. Or that a long time ago there were persons and perdaughters. Or that the letter C means or represents Skara, or the moon sickle..

It would appear that you are deliberately ignoring the glaringly obvious. Your "source" was mentally "unstable" with penchants for lying, fabrication, and any number of other disturbing behaviors.

Citing such an individual can hardly be considered worthwhile or valid research, as is citing a fraudulent text.

But then, you do not even understand (or choose to ignore) basic geology.

.

December 7, 2022

Overview of the old Frisian alphabet.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/40986/40986-h/40986-h.htm

Yes, i can understand your point and i hope you can also understand mine and not consider perhaps the whole thing as nonsense and useless. The Unexplained Mysteries site, and especially the Ancient Mysteries and Alternative History must be the right place to discuss things that are "unconventional".

Are you aware of what is proposed in the saga? That an ancient civilization spoke a primordial language called root language. The logic within the so called sound system (Alphernas Beten) is imo mind blowing.

Good old Abramelin started here at the UM some related threads that really got into many aspects of this saga. I can only think and thank that UM's member FromFinland had so much to talk about...

On 8/31/2016 at 6:55 PM, FromFinland said:

It is certain and totally undisputed that our land's oldest inhabitants called Joter celebrated Christmas quite convivially long before Christ in ancient heathen times, at the same exact time in December as we nowadays, albeit for other reasons.

December 7, 2022

7 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

Are you aware of what is proposed in the saga?

Unfortunately, yes. Any further elaboration would be, as usual, a pointless exercise.

.

December 7, 2022

3 hours ago, Swede said:

Unfortunately, yes. Any further elaboration would be, as usual, a pointless exercise.

.

I made contact with the saga while searching for clues, events that could relate to the Ragnarok mythology. It turned out there was this saga from Finland stating that the sun "apparently" traveled differently in those days of old, before the great Ragnarok, and this point was actually extremely important to the saga.

The whole world was spinning around Hel at the time, exactly where the north pole was situated... and in the time of paradiset Oden (Odin) was not an old one eyed divinity, as "recently", but rather Oden was a ring and was everything and Oden was the sun.

This ring land (or the ancient name for Helsinki - Odenmma translates as land of Oden) often spoken about in the saga, is very similar to Plato's Atlantis city description:

Quote

The maiden had already reached womanhood, when her father and mother died; Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil. He also begat and brought up five pairs of twin male children; and dividing the island of Atlantis into ten portions, he gave to the first-born of the eldest pair his mother's dwelling and the surrounding allotment, which was the largest and best, and made him king over the rest; the others he made princes, and gave them rule over many men, and a large territory. And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

There was a "hole" and a "hill" in Hel, no pun intended. and there was a ring-land surrounding it, according to the saga. The first letter H (sound Ho) meant Hel, home, Hjarta (heart), Hem (home), Helig (holy)...

Edited December 7, 2022 by Mario Dantas
correction

December 19, 2022

On 12/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Mario Dantas said:

Good old Abramelin started here at the UM some related threads that really got into many aspects of this saga.

No.

I started many threads here, but not threads about proven bs.

Edited to add:

Ì didn't start the "Oera Linda" thread, a 'Riaan' did, a South African guy, 13 years ago.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/184645-archivedoera-linda-book-and-the-great-flood/

Edited December 19, 2022 by Abramelin

December 20, 2022

On 12/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, Mario Dantas said:

The source says that when you put pi in a pole you get people. Or that a long time ago there were persons and perdaughters.

Since you didn't come up with that idea I feel free to say "that's the stupidest thing I've heard all week."

"People" comes from the Latin, "populus" and mangled somewhat by the French. Its lineage is proven by a lot of text. https://www.etymonline.com/word/people

And "persons and perdaughters" is... amazingly stupid. Person is another word that comes from Latin ("persona" https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=person) "Persons" is not a kit bashing of two English words and "perdaughters" was never a word.

The idea that you do linguistics by "sounds like" or "spelled like" is ridiculous. Linguistics doesn't involve trying to match word lists based on spelling or ripping words apart to try and find short English word combinations.

December 20, 2022

22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

No.

I started many threads here, but not threads about proven bs.

Edited to add:

Ì didn't start the "Oera Linda" thread, a 'Riaan' did, a South African guy, 13 years ago.

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/184645-archivedoera-linda-book-and-the-great-flood/

I am truly sorry for the mistake. If you think this subject is not related, i can stop posting about it here.

What about BS bs? Are you aware of the supposed liaison between rot language (Finish) and English?

December 20, 2022

15 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Since you didn't come up with that idea I feel free to say "that's the stupidest thing I've heard all week."

"People" comes from the Latin, "populus" and mangled somewhat by the French. Its lineage is proven by a lot of text. https://www.etymonline.com/word/people

And "persons and perdaughters" is... amazingly stupid. Person is another word that comes from Latin ("persona" https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=person) "Persons" is not a kit bashing of two English words and "perdaughters" was never a word.

The idea that you do linguistics by "sounds like" or "spelled like" is ridiculous. Linguistics doesn't involve trying to match word lists based on spelling or ripping words apart to try and find short English word combinations.

I agree with your reasoning. The logic of the sound system is crazy (and since you brought up the person word):

Quote

Perfect (adj.)

early 15c. classical correction of Middle English parfit "flawless, ideal" (c. 1300), also "complete, full, finished, lacking in no way" (late 14c.), from Old French parfit "finished, completed, ready" (11c.), from Latin perfectus "completed, excellent, accomplished, exquisite," past participle of perficere "accomplish, finish, complete," from per "completely" (see per) + combining form of facere "to make, to do" (from PIE root *dhe- "to set, put").

Entries linking to perfect

per (prep.)

"through, by means of," 1580s (earlier in various Latin and French phrases, in the latter often par), from Latin per "through, during, by means of, on account of, as in," from PIE root *per- (1) "forward," hence "through, in front of, before, first, chief, toward, near, around, against."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/perfect

The word perfect, according to the saga, meant something made by the per or father (also called all-father) entity.

But again i agree with you that it is ridiculous. Although i have to remind that according to the saga, at the time of the primordial rot language, there was no writing. All communication was made orally through the sound system. It is said that this very early way of communicating got mingled within different languages evolving into today's linguistical mixture, which came after a, supposedly, great Ragnarok.

Maybe Linguistics should also be more observant toward spelling than written words per se? Please let me give an example:

The Mother-tongue word (or First language) word, as well as other terms like Lingua franca are words pertaining to the words lang, lingui, lingua, and tongue in the English language. Through our tongue (see phonetically resemblance with lang) we communicate with the world of people around us.

Quote

Linguistics is the scientific study of human language. It is called a scientific study because it entails a comprehensive, systematic, objective, and precise analysis of all aspects of language, particularly its nature and structure. Linguistics is concerned with both the cognitive and social aspects of language.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiGxerupYn8AhXf8rsIHSYhD-4QmhN6BAhhEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLinguistics&usg=AOvVaw02uyLA--NK4_x61z9qB0ay

The tongue is in a way the engine of speech, considering that the sound-system (29 sounds of the rot Alphernas beten or Alphabet) is put forward by the tongue itself, according to the saga.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Mario Dantas
correction

December 21, 2022

6 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

But again i agree with you that it is ridiculous. Although i have to remind that according to the saga, at the time of the primordial rot language, there was no writing. All communication was made orally through the sound system. It is said that this very early way of communicating got mingled within different languages evolving into today's linguistical mixture, which came after a, supposedly, great Ragnarok.

Maybe Linguistics should also be more observant toward spelling than written words per se? Please let me give an example:

The Mother-tongue word (or First language) word, as well as other terms like Lingua franca are words pertaining to the words lang, lingui, lingua, and tongue in the English language. Through our tongue (see phonetically resemblance with lang) we communicate with the world of people around us.

The tongue is in a way the engine of speech, considering that the sound-system (29 sounds of the rot Alphernas beten or Alphabet) is put forward by the tongue itself, according to the saga.

The problem with this is that we don't hear sounds exactly (Franz Boas famously did a paper on this back in the late 1800's/early 1900's). For example, the capitol of China is variously heard as Peping/Peking/Bejing (spelling depends on what era you lived in and what language you spoke). People from the Far East have trouble hearing some of our consonants (famously, "r") and would spell our words very differently.

And we're certainly capable of making more than 29 sounds.

Everything I see indicates the saga is pure fiction and the "linguistics" in there are contrived and unsupported. What I see reproduced here matches that assessment.

There ARE ways of uncovering the older languages to some extent... however, I'm not a linguist and this is about as far as I can go on the topic.

December 21, 2022

Kenemet,

Thanks for the information.

I will give one more example of the rot language logic:

Quote

knowledge (n.)

early 12c., cnawlece "acknowledgment of a superior, honor, worship;" for the first element see know (v.). The second element is obscure, perhaps from Scandinavian and cognate with the -lock "action, process," found in wedlock.

From late 14c. as "capacity for knowing, understanding; familiarity;" also "fact or condition of knowing, awareness of a fact;" also "news, notice, information; learning; organized body of facts or teachings."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/knowledge

The saga has an explanation for the origin of the word knowledge (which i do not know if its true):

"When you take the edge of a knoll you get knowledge"

As one can observe when a ring is cut, it becomes a new shape (like a coil spring)

According to the saga the word Knowledge starts with an N and a K...

If one look at the Old English etymology of the word knoll:

Quote

knoll

noun

a small round hill : mound

knoll

verb

knolled; knolling; knolls

archaic

: knell

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knoll

The word Knell can mean to ring a bell, to celebrate the beginning of (something, such as a new year) or:

Quote

intransitive verb

1: to ring especially for a death, funeral, or disaster : toll

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knell

Likewise, he word anellus (in Latin) means a little ring:

Quote

anellus

anellus (Latin)

Alternative forms

ānnellus

Origin & history

Diminutive from ānulus.

Noun

ānellus (genitive ānellī) (masc.)

a little ring

Related words & phrases

ānulāris

ānulārius

ānulus

ānus

Lastly, the word nil, meaning 0 (that is the shape of a ring), in English:

Quote

Common names for the number 0 in English are zero, nought, naught (/nɔːt/), nil.

or Nol in Finnish or Dutch nul, and Latin nullus:

Quote

Finnish

Pronunciation

IPA^(key): /ˈnol/, [ˈno̞l]

Rhymes: -ol

Syllabification^(key): nol

Numeral

nol

(colloquial, in sequences) Alternative form of nolla (“zero”)

In Mid English, the word nol means crown (another circular object, pretty much like a ring):

Quote

Middle English

Alternative forms

nolle, nole

Etymology

From Old English hnoll.

Pronunciation

IPA^(key): /nɔl/

Noun

nol (plural nolles)

head, crown

The word nol can also mean from the north (the second meaning of the letter N - Nordstierna):

Quote

Westrobothnian

Etymology

From Old Norse norðr, from Proto-Germanic *nurþrą.

Noun

nol m

north

Adverb

nol

north

nol i ron

north in the wroo

nol i båttn

north in Bothnia

Related terms

nola (“from the north”)

nolest (“furthest to the north”)

Edited December 21, 2022 by Mario Dantas
correction

December 22, 2022

On 12/20/2022 at 10:50 PM, Mario Dantas said:

Are you aware of the supposed liaison between rot language (Finish) and English?

The only connection between English and Finnish I can think of is the language the Maglemosians must have spoken 8000 and more years ago.

But I also think that that connection is very thin.

December 23, 2022

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The only connection between English and Finnish I can think of is the language the Maglemosians must have spoken 8000 and more years ago.

But I also think that that connection is very thin.

The Proto-IE/ Uralic theory. It's thin, possible and can't be proven.

December 23, 2022

24 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Proto-IE/ Uralic theory. It's thin, possible and can't be proven.

I'm not sure, but I think I remember that that reasoning was based on there being navigatable ice lakes bordering the ice sheats; one could almost travel on these lakes from what's now England to northern Siberia:

December 23, 2022

18 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I'm not sure, but I think I remember that that reasoning was based on there being navigatable ice lakes bordering the ice sheats; one could almost travel on these lakes from what's now England to northern Siberia:

The first cart wheel was theorized to be invented by the Uralic folks and the IE folks had it right after.....if it wasn't the IE who invented it.

@Thanos5150 and I discussed how Comb Ceramic Culture artifacts has been found from Europe to Korea giving that theory you posted a maybe.

December 23, 2022

On 7/11/2022 at 4:15 AM, Abramelin said:

The content of the opening post was obviously meant to get laymen interested in something 'dry' like linguistics. The topic isn't anything near 'dry' to me...

I hope the two (?) resident linguists will show their expertise. Meaning: not something like "This is bs, nonsense, racist" and so on.

NP. I'll put on my linguistics hat at some point in the comments, and tear you a new one (jk). When I saw this thread called "skeletons in the closet", I was hoping it was the LGBT+ community finally recognizing and adopting the poor despised and criminalized necrophiles in our midst. Apparently that was too much to ask for. :no:

December 23, 2022

On 7/11/2022 at 4:45 AM, jaylemurph said:

The author of this piece reminds me of you, Abe. He has gleaned some knowledge of linguistics without formally studying it, so he arrives at a variety of strange conclusions because of serious gaps in his understanding, conclusions no linguist would ever arrive at.

Chiefly, he needs to learn that many sound changes are random in cause. There are no reasons for them; that’s a hard conclusion for people trained in formal science and math to accept. He sees language change and want there to be a bigger reason for it; there just isn’t.

Furthermore, this article is not some neutral piece on a purely academic reference site. It’s on a site essentially begging people to turn over academic research into some kind of fringe religious philosophy— lots of use of the term “awakening” — so context matters. The source is suspicious in the extreme; the methodology is fundamentally flawed by ignorance of the field; of course the conclusions reached are going to be misleading at best.

And you’re going to get angry, Abe. You don’t like it when people critique you in any form or your chosen favorite sources. But you asked for this. Explicitly. So keep calm in your response.

I’m interested in others’ take on the material presented.

—Jaylemurph

I arrived late to this party unfortunately. Abe, I'm glad you are taking a personal interest in linguistics, and for the record I'd rather have one committed self-starter like yourself in my classes than 2 dozen sleepy first years who will all come begging me for extensions in a few weeks time for their (inevitably C grade) assignments..

Jayle is quite correct about sound changes, and many people with logical minds indeed find it galling. Me too in fact, way back when... It feels like there should be a pattern and a reason behind the change, but you generally get over that bitter disappointment by second year or become an occultist "cringing at every syllable lest it summon the Elder Gods" (I jest).

Sadly when I went to read the article I found the link was broken. Then I realized that the censor bot had replaced B@st@rd with b******, so I corrected for it, but the link was still broken. A pity, as I quite enjoy non-academic attempts at linguistics, or I would never have become a lecturer. I have always tried to get my students to learn what the "box" of linguistic theory is so they can properly think outside it or the discipline will desiccate and die. If Jayle says the article is suspicious, it very likely is, but that doesn't mean it cannot be speculative and fun, and even provide pause for thought as you figure out why its argument is flawed.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Alchopwn

December 23, 2022

11 minutes ago, Alchopwn said:

I arrived late to this party unfortunately. Abe, I'm glad you are taking a personal interest in linguistics, and for the record I'd rather have one committed self-starter like yourself in my classes than 2 dozen sleepy first years who will all come begging me for extensions in a few weeks time for their (inevitably C grade) assignments..

Jayle is quite correct about sound changes, and many people with logical minds indeed find it galling. Me too in fact, way back when... It feels like there should be a pattern and a reason behind the change, but you generally get over that bitter disappointment by second year or become an occultist "cringing at every syllable lest it summon the Elder Gods" (I jest).

Sadly when I went to read the article I found the link was broken. Then I realized that the censor bot had replaced B@st@rd with b******, so I corrected for it, but the link was still broken. A pity, as I quite enjoy non-academic attempts at linguistics, or I would never have become a lecturer. I have always tried to get my students to learn what the "box" of linguistic theory is so they can properly think outside it or the discipline will desiccate and die. If Jayle says the article is suspicious, it very likely is, but that doesn't mean it cannot be speculative and fun, and even provide pause for thought as you figure out why its argument is flawed.

Thanks for showing up, Alchopwn.

First the link:

LINK.

Maybe this works for you.

Btw., you were that other linguist I have been looking for for months! All I remembered was that your username started with an -A-.

Ok. The link is to a site that kind of lightheartedly deals with linguistics, but it is based on theories published by Theo Vennemann (German) and Robert Mailhammer (Australian).

I have saved many links, and if needed I will post them (links to downloadable papers).

December 23, 2022

32 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Thanks for showing up, Alchopwn.

First the link:

LINK.

Maybe this works for you.

Btw., you were that other linguist I have been looking for for months! All I remembered was that your username started with an -A-.

Ok. The link is to a site that kind of lightheartedly deals with linguistics, but it is based on theories published by Theo Vennemann (German) and Robert Mailhammer (Australian).

I have saved many links, and if needed I will post them (links to downloadable papers).

Al can translate any Hebrew writing.

I should of tagged him months ago. :wacko:

December 23, 2022

4 hours ago, Piney said:

The first cart wheel was theorized to be invented by the Uralic folks and the IE folks had it right after.....if it wasn't the IE who invented it.

Thank you.

Quote

@Thanos5150 and I discussed how Comb Ceramic Culture artifacts has been found from Europe to Korea giving that theory you posted a maybe.

An interesting component of the Comb Ceramic was the Asbestos-Ceramic. The two types of the latter are "asbestos pottery" made from 50-60% asbestos and "asbestos ware" containing up to 90% asbestos. High job turnover rate. We take it for granted that asbestos is a "modern invention" but in reality it has been used for over 6000yrs in various applications like pottery and cloth making.

Ancient History of Asbestos

Edited December 23, 2022 by Thanos5150

December 23, 2022

12 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Thank you.

An interesting component of the Comb Ceramic was the Asbestos-Ceramic. The two types of the latter are "asbestos pottery" made from 50-60% asbestos and "asbestos ware" containing up to 90% asbestos. High job turnover rate. We take it for granted that asbestos in a "modern invention" but in reality it has been used for over 6000yrs in various applications like pottery and cloth making.

Ancient History of Asbestos

Some "soapstone" bowls made during the Archaic on the US East Coast were asbestos.

December 26, 2022

On 12/21/2022 at 7:51 AM, Mario Dantas said:

Kenemet,

Thanks for the information.

I will give one more example of the rot language logic:

https://www.etymonline.com/word/knowledge

The saga has an explanation for the origin of the word knowledge (which i do not know if its true):

"When you take the edge of a knoll you get knowledge"

It's not true. I've seen folks do this before - breaking up words into English words and playing with them. That's not how it works.

Quote

As one can observe when a ring is cut, it becomes a new shape (like a coil spring)

According to the saga the word Knowledge starts with an N and a K...

If one look at the Old English etymology of the word knoll:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knoll

The word Knell can mean to ring a bell, to celebrate the beginning of (something, such as a new year) or:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knell

Likewise, he word anellus (in Latin) means a little ring:

Lastly, the word nil, meaning 0 (that is the shape of a ring), in English:

or Nol in Finnish or Dutch nul, and Latin nullus:

In Mid English, the word nol means crown (another circular object, pretty much like a ring):

The word nol can also mean from the north (the second meaning of the letter N - Nordstierna):

Uhm.... no. Just... no.

I see that a real linguist has stepped it, but I'll just add that you don't determine the parentage of a language by looking at word lists that you think sound alike.

December 26, 2022

And now we let writers advertise their book? What a waste of time

December 26, 2022

3 hours ago, Freez1 said:

And now we let writers advertise their book? What a waste of time

Who are these writers advertising their books?

December 26, 2022

On 12/22/2022 at 10:23 PM, Abramelin said:

The only connection between English and Finnish I can think of is the language the Maglemosians must have spoken 8000 and more years ago.

But I also think that that connection is very thin.

Abramelin,

Thanks for the information, i did not know that. Here is an excerpt from Maglemosian people wiki:

Quote

When the Maglemosian culture flourished, sea levels were much lower than now and what is now mainland Europe and Scandinavia were linked with Britain. The cultural period overlaps the end of the last ice age,^[2] when the ice retreated and the glaciers melted. It was a long process and sea levels in Northern Europe did not reach current levels until almost 6000 BC, by which time they had inundated large territories previously inhabited by Maglemosian people. Therefore, there is hope that the emerging discipline of underwater archaeology may reveal interesting finds related to the Maglemosian culture in the future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglemosian_culture

At least, Finland is very old, comparing to other European nations:

Quote

Finland was first inhabited around 9000 BC after the Last Glacial Period.^[13] The Stone Age introduced several different ceramic styles and cultures. The Bronze Age and Iron Age were characterized by extensive contacts with other cultures in Fennoscandia and the Baltic region.^[14] From the late 13th century, Finland gradually became an integral part of Sweden as a consequence of the Northern Crusades. In 1809, as a result of the Finnish War, Finland became part of the Russian Empire as the autonomous Grand Duchy of Finland, during which Finnish art flourished and the idea of independence began to take hold. In 1906, Finland became the first European state to grant universal suffrage, and the first in the world to give all adult citizens the right to run for public office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finland

Skeletons in the closet

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