Should Trump be Prosecuted?

[+Paranoid Android]

7 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Because he saw all the videos on YouTube.

I only needed one video, and it's mainstream news not YouTube: 

This was 2017's inauguration which had fewer protesters than January 2021 and more police! Does that seem right to you?

Edited August 8, 2022 by Paranoid Android

[Agent0range]

1 minute ago, Paranoid Android said:

I only needed one video, and it's mainstream news not YouTube: 

This was 2017's inauguration which had fewer protesters than 2020 and more police! Does that seem right to you?

How many police were injured?  How many people died?  How many were charged by Trumps DOJ?  Stupidity exists on both sides, that's for sure.  But it takes a special kind of stupid to fly a flag with a man's name on it, and hang on every word he says.

[+Paranoid Android]

Just now, Agent0range said:

How many police were injured?  How many people died?  How many were charged by Trumps DOJ?  Stupidity exists on both sides, that's for sure.  But it takes a special kind of stupid to fly a flag with a man's name on it, and hang on every word he says.

Irrelevant! If there were no riot police in 2017, the Capitol would have been breached, and people may have died! If there were riot police on January 6, 2021, it would not have been breached. Someone royally messed up the security (can't remember his name, but he fell on his sword and resigned from Capitol security as a direct result of his failure; his name was mentioned in the first of the J6 committee hearings among others - though whether he was truly responsible or just the fall guy remains to be seem; I'll eat my hat if he's anything but a patsy, though that's just my opinion). 

[Agent0range]

Just now, Paranoid Android said:

though that's just my opinion

It's usually nothing more than that...we know.  No need to tell us.

[Golden Duck]

9 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

I only needed one video, and it's mainstream news not YouTube: 

This was 2017's inauguration which had fewer protesters than January 2021 and more police! Does that seem right to you?

I suspect intelligence might work a bit different.

Quote

“The intelligence was not that there would be a coordinated assault on the Capitol, nor was that contemplated in any of the interagency discussions that I attended in the days before the attack,” Irving said.

https://rollcall.com/2022/03/18/former-house-sergeant-at-arms-provided-testimony-to-jan-6-panel/

Irving was appointed in 2012.

[+Paranoid Android]

Just now, Agent0range said:

It's usually nothing more than that...we know.  No need to tell us.

I won't tell you, then  

Of course, when I don't people go "wahhh, why didn't you say it's your opinion.... wahhh". Kinda like what you did here, just the other way around.

Any attempt to ridicule - it's what you do best  

[Agent0range]

3 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Of course, when I don't people go "wahhh, why didn't you say it's your opinion.... wahhh"

Really?  Like who?  And when?  What thread?  I'd love to read those posts.  They are all easily available, so point me in the direction..unless you're just making it up again?

[+Paranoid Android]

17 minutes ago, Agent0range said:

Really?  Like who?  And when?  What thread?  I'd love to read those posts.  They are all easily available, so point me in the direction..unless you're just making it up again?

I'll keep my eyes out for the next time someone mentions it (I know I have on several occasions written comments along the lines of  "yes, I know it's just my opinion, this is a discussion forum, I didn't realise I needed to caveat every sentence with "in my opinion".... except when I do, it seems)...... 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Paranoid Android

[Tiggs]

40 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

Thousands of people were on the way to the Capitol, that was known as fact well before January 6. I suspect we shall agree to dodge on that one, though this is common knowledge as far as I can make it.

Still unable to find an article where it's been listed as a definitive fact. Have seen an opinion piece on the evening of the 5th where it was listed as a potential possibility.

Either way — you'll note the (deliberately planned) absence of a march permit from one location to the other — not least because a demonstration of that size at the Capitol is illegal.

Perhaps you can begin to see the issue with Trump directing thousands of protestors to the Capitol. Especially if he knew some of them were armed.

Or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, too.

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Is that what he said? Or did he simply say that a reasonable person would know that he is presenting his opinion on the news? It may not look like a big difference, but it very much is! 

Here is what I found from the judge

Just read U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil's opinion, leaning heavily on the arguments of Fox's lawyers: The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' "

Vyskocil, an appointee of President Trump's, added, "Whether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as 'exaggeration,' 'non-literal commentary,' or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same — the statements are not actionable."

 

[+Paranoid Android]

13 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Still unable to find an article where it's been listed as a definitive fact. Have seen an opinion piece on the evening of the 5th where it was listed as a potential possibility.

The media reported a rumour that turned out to be true, then? And not one person handling security at the capitol thought to themselves "let's prepare as if the media has it right", rather than "let's ignore what the media says, even though they have explicitly laid out routes, plans, and more".....

 

13 minutes ago, Tiggs said:

Either way — you'll note the (deliberately planned) absence of a march permit from one location to the other — not least because a demonstration of that size at the Capitol is illegal.

Perhaps you can begin to see the issue with Trump directing thousands of protestors to the Capitol. Especially if he knew some of them were armed.

Or maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one, too.

Trump didn't organise the rally, so I fail to see how he is responsible for it. 

[+Paranoid Android]

8 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Here is what I found from the judge

Just read U.S. District Judge Mary Kay Vyskocil's opinion, leaning heavily on the arguments of Fox's lawyers: The "'general tenor' of the show should then inform a viewer that [Carlson] is not 'stating actual facts' about the topics he discusses and is instead engaging in 'exaggeration' and 'non-literal commentary.' "

Vyskocil, an appointee of President Trump's, added, "Whether the Court frames Mr. Carlson's statements as 'exaggeration,' 'non-literal commentary,' or simply bloviating for his audience, the conclusion remains the same — the statements are not actionable."

 

And that's entirely consistent with what I have said. If you search up the Maddow court case you'll find the reasoning from the judge to be virtually identical. Which again, you'll see, was my point in the first place! 

[el midgetron]

On December 21, 2020, a viral tweet predicted, "On January 6, armed Trumpist militias will be rallying in D.C., at Trump's orders. It's highly likely that they'll try to storm the Capitol after it certifies Joe Biden's win."[127] On December 29, 2020, D.C.'s Hotel Harrington, a past gathering spot for Proud Boys, announced closure from January 4–6, citing public safety. Harry's Pub, another Proud Boys hotspot, similarly announced a temporary closure.[129] On December 30, 2020, former Pence aide Olivia Troye publicly expressed fears "that violence could erupt in Washington, D.C., on January 6".[130]

A January 2 article by The Daily Beast reported protesters were discussing bringing guns to the District, breaking into federal buildings, and attacking law enforcement.[127] The article quoted one popular comment "I'm thinking it will be literal war on that day. Where we'll storm offices and physically remove and even kill all the D.C. traitors and reclaim the country".[127][131]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_United_States_Capitol_attack#Public_predictions_of_violence

[Tiggs]

1 minute ago, Paranoid Android said:

The media reported a rumour that turned out to be true, then? And not one person handling security at the capitol thought to themselves "let's prepare as if the media has it right", rather than "let's ignore what the media says, even though they have explicitly laid out routes, plans, and more".....

I guess you'd have to evidence that the people handling security read said article to begin with.
 

1 minute ago, Paranoid Android said:

Trump didn't organise the rally, so I fail to see how he is responsible for it. 

So, the part where he repeatedly encouraged everyone to go to the Capitol, where he'd soon join them — also the rally organizers fault?

[the13bats]

2 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

The media reported a rumour that turned out to be true, then? And not one person handling security at the capitol thought to themselves "let's prepare as if the media has it right", rather than "let's ignore what the media says, even though they have explicitly laid out routes, plans, and more".....

 

Trump didn't organise the rally, so I fail to see how he is responsible for it. 

Im guessing you likely think chuckie manson was innocent in the Tate murders.

Lets try it like this "Fred" a person known by a great many people like lets say a famous actor or spirts star starts posting that it might not be a bad idea if someone took a ball bat upside so in sos head, and sure enough so in so gets pummeled by a looney mob of fans with bats in your odd mind fred is innocent?

[Doug1066]

14 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

Imagine if the security at this event were as lax as January 6, 2021? For example, take away the "thousands of police in riot gear"....

Thanks for posting it.

I see somebody in what looks like police gear throwing something, apparently tear gas.  If police use weapons, should not the protestors be allowed the same weapons?

Doug

[acidhead]

Donald Trump's house in Florida was just raided, unannounced, by the FBI.

[acidhead]

The FBI is at his house right now looking for something.

[acidhead]

[Doug1066]

17 minutes ago, acidhead said:

The FBI is at his house right now looking for something.

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Doug

[psyche101]

56 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

Couldn't happen to a nicer guy.

Doug

Jinx!!!

Just said the same thing in that thread

[+Paranoid Android]

21 hours ago, Tiggs said:

I guess you'd have to evidence that the people handling security read said article to begin with.

The media reported on it, it's inconceivable that the people in charge of security didn't have at least as much information as the media did! 

I don't believe the government is THAT incompetent! 

 

21 hours ago, Tiggs said:

So, the part where he repeatedly encouraged everyone to go to the Capitol, where he'd soon join them — also the rally organizers fault?

He didn't organise the rally, he simply acknowledged that the crowd was planning to march. I recall AOC was arrested at a protest recently outside the Supreme Court, she was fined $50 for her part in that. Protesting at the Supreme Court is also illegal. Though the difference is that despite his plan to go to the Capitol, he never did - the Secret Service stopped him (there's even allegation that Trump lunged for a steering wheel - though the car was stationary at the time, despite our earlier argument from a couple of weeks back assuming the car was in motion, and it's still questionable if it even actually happened). 

Nothing Trump said could be seen as "incitement" or "sedition" or any of the things that he is being accused of, in my humble opinion. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

19 hours ago, the13bats said:

Im guessing you likely think chuckie manson was innocent in the Tate murders.

No. Charles Manson was a cult leader, he was responsible for the actions of those he commanded. 

I think we had this discussion before, but I don't think Trump is a cult leader! 

 

19 hours ago, the13bats said:

Lets try it like this "Fred" a person known by a great many people like lets say a famous actor or spirts star starts posting that it might not be a bad idea if someone took a ball bat upside so in sos head, and sure enough so in so gets pummeled by a looney mob of fans with bats in your odd mind fred is innocent?

Did this famous actor or sports star specifically and explicitly encourage violence? If not, I fail to see your point! 

[+Paranoid Android]

12 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Thanks for posting it.

I see somebody in what looks like police gear throwing something, apparently tear gas.  If police use weapons, should not the protestors be allowed the same weapons?

Doug

I'm more interested in the fact that the police are even here. Have a look at this video and skip to the 6:05 timecode, you only need to see ten seconds of the video to get the point. Compare that to the riot police in 2017. If the presence that we saw in that 2017 clip was present in that 2021 clip, would anyone have got into the Capitol? 

Video HERE (for some reason the forum code won't let me post this YouTube clip straight to the page (the system says there's an emoji or something similar). Instead you'll have to click the link and follow it to YouTube to see. I recommend the whole video, but for the sake of time you really only need the ten seconds I mentioned. Though if you watch more than ten seconds (eg, if you watch 90 seconds) you'll see a comparison between this police presence and the police presence at the BLM protests in 2020. 

That said, why should protesters have weapons? The police are using weapons because they are returning law and order to a lawless protest, that does not give the protesters the right to use weapons right back! 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Paranoid Android

[Doug1066]

47 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

If the presence that we saw in that 2017 clip was present in that 2021 clip, would anyone have got into the Capitol? 

Good point.  And why don't you think there weren't as many police at J6?

Doug