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Are we 100% "alone" in the Universe?


pallidin
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A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

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I personally think there is life elsewhere in the universe. Maybe not intelligent life as we define it, but something.

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Besides all the circumstances that need to be right to allow life to thrive, there's just one problem: We don't know how the first living cell came to be.

The first living cell defies all reason. It has so many fine and important details that each of them would have had to develop on their own, and then come together to make sense.

The first living cell could not happen, and yet it did. And people think it happened more than once? They obviously know nothing about biochemistry. (I'm no expert, but I understand the extreme complexity and delicateness of it.)

My bet: This is it.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, pallidin said:

A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

Hello my friend great thread, very very interesting topic and also a topic that will unfortunately elicit more personal opinions than empirical data or scientific theories. I may be able to assist you here, currently there are two major competing Scientific theories on the subject matter your thread is based upon and they are as follows. Hopefully this will get your thread started, because as far as your topic is concerned the two Theories below are the Alpha ( The Drake Equation supports the theory that life including intelligent life plentiful throughout the Universe ) and the Omega ( The Fermi  Paradox claims the opposite and states that life is uncommon and rare throughout the Universe )

1. THE DRAKE EQUATION:  In 1959, astronomers Giuseppe Cocconi and Philip Morrisson came up with the idea that the current measuring instruments could be used to receive signals from civilizations that have formed outside our solar system. These signals should be transmitted with the wavelength of neutral hydrogen 1.42 MHz due to the universal importance of this element. More precisely, this is the 21 cm hyperfine hydrogen line.

Obviously, a prerequisite for this is the existence of such civilizations and their ability to transmit light and/or radio signals into space. Two months later, astronomer Frank Drake and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Green Bank, now known as the Green Bank Observatory, tried to detect such signals. For this, he studied the stars Epsilon Eridani and Tau Ceti in the wavelength spectrum 1.42 MHz, as suggested by G. Cocconi and P. Morrison. However, Drake was unable to detect any such signals

For his conference at the Green Bank Facility in 1961, however, he developed a conception, essentially the conference agenda, that would lead to an estimation of the appropriate kind. This conception was further discussed and elaborated in the following years by Drake and the nine other conference participants. The result of the work of this group, which often called itself the “Order the Dolphin,( @pallidin)  is the so-called Drake equation:

Simple mathematical formula that the Drake Equation: The chart below breaks down and explains the mathematical  {\displaystyle N=R_{*}\cdot f_{\mathrm {p} }\cdot n_{\mathrm {e} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {l} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {i} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {c} }\cdot L} 

drank-equation-1024x511.jpg

 

2.The fermi paradox is neither Fermi's nor a paradox: : The so-called Fermi paradox claims that if technological life existed anywhere else, we would see evidence of its visits to Earth--and since we do not, such life does not exist, or some special explanation is needed. Enrico Fermi, however, never published anything on this topic. On the one occasion he is known to have mentioned it, he asked "Where is everybody?"--apparently suggesting that we do not see extraterrestrials on Earth because interstellar travel may not be feasible, but not suggesting that intelligent extraterrestrial life does not exist or suggesting its absence is paradoxical.
 
The claim "they are not here; therefore they do not exist" was first published by Michael Hart, claiming that interstellar travel and colonization of the Galaxy would be inevitable if intelligent extraterrestrial life existed, and taking its absence here as proof that it does not exist anywhere. The Fermi paradox appears to originate in Hart's argument, not Fermi's question. Clarifying the origin of these ideas is important, because the Fermi paradox is seen by some as an authoritative objection to searching for evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence--cited in the U.S. Congress as a reason for killing NASA's SETI program on one occasion.
 
But evidence indicates that it misrepresents Fermi's views, misappropriates his authority, deprives the actual authors of credit, and is not a valid paradox. The fermi paradox is neither Fermi's nor a paradox - PubMed (nih.gov)

A probabilistic analysis of the Fermi paradox in terms of the Drake formula: the role of the L factor: 2003.04802.pdf (arxiv.org)

Peace Pallidin

Edited by Manwon Lender
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Despite the completely logical reason which says there must be the other living beings besides us in the universe, I still think we living creatures on the Earth are the only ones. A series of the incredible circumstances came together on this stone ball called Earth, and resulted in the appearance of a diverse and intelligent life. Yes we are that only ones imho.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 
 
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I think life on earth is unique but the chances are greater that there is other forms of existence elsewhere than not.

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10 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:
Despite the completely logical reason which says there must be the other living beings besides us in the universe, I still think we living creatures on the Earth are the only ones. A series of the incredible circumstances came together on this stone ball called Earth, and resulted in the appearance of a diverse and intelligent life. Yes we are that only ones imho.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

There are things we know, and things we don't know, and things we believe.

What we know is that if the situation is right, life can begin on a planet.  We also know that the conditions for that to occur are extremely rare...out of billions of star systems...nothing that we can confirm.

And one more thing we know is that the Milky Way Galaxy is one of unknown Billions if not Trillions of other galaxies, each containing billions of stars.

When we extrapolate the odds of 1 in X  ...  we have nothing to compare X to...but even so it is an infinitely daunting figure to put the odds at 1 in a (Trillion x a Billion) 

Just to further illustrate the complexity and daunting number...imagine with me...

In a world...

Where you are in a swirling sand storm in the middle of the Sahara Desert.  And in this world...you are in a Bubble...and you can freeze frame the swirling sand storm...

Now, you open up the little door of your bubble...and carefully extract one grain of sand from the swirling sand storm.

That grain of sand equals The Milky Way Galaxy...and every other grain of sand in the swirling Sand Storm of the Entire Sahara desert...each grain represents one galaxy...which of course contains billions and billions of star systems.

...That being said...I think we know two things.  One:  We are not alone in the Universe.  Two: We are completely alone in the Universe.

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13 hours ago, zep73 said:

Besides all the circumstances that need to be right to allow life to thrive, there's just one problem: We don't know how the first living cell came to be.

The first living cell defies all reason. It has so many fine and important details that each of them would have had to develop on their own, and then come together to make sense.

The first living cell could not happen, and yet it did. And people think it happened more than once? They obviously know nothing about biochemistry. (I'm no expert, but I understand the extreme complexity and delicateness of it.)

My bet: This is it.

There are also the external factors that allowed life to develop. Type of star, our distance from it, the uniqueness of our moon and its effects on the Earth. A ton of factors to consider for sure. Those statistical problems of course exist. However, we are all saying both yes or no to the notion of this possibility based off our limited knowledge and understanding. 

 

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14 hours ago, pallidin said:

A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

Nobody knows.

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Life is matter that increases local entropy by harvesting external (Gibbs free) energy to maintain internal order (paraphrasing Erwin Schrodinger "What is Life?"). Given liquid water, energy, and the periodic table, life will find a way (paraphrasing Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park).

If chemistry happens, life (as defined above) happens, but whether intelligence or even complex (multi-cellular) life happens depends on "A Series of Fortunate Events" (book by Sean B. Carrol (the biologist, not the physicist Sean M. Carrol)).

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Then again...there may be life on practically every planet in the Universe.

...most probably not 'carbon-based' life...but what about for instance life based on any one of the other elements.  Consider for a moment...Uranium based life forms...what would that look like?  What would that be like?  Or maybe...Silicon based life.  We as Carbon based life forms might be the 'simplest' forms of life in the Universe...while Uranium or Paladium or Silicon based life forms could be among the most complex and as such the evolution of those forms might create something so incredibly Advanced from what we are that we could be looking right at them and not even realizing they were life forms.  

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1 hour ago, joc said:

 Consider for a moment...Uranium based life forms...what would that look like?  What would that be like? 

Something in that style already exists on the Earth:

This Strange Species That Lives Off Nuclear Energy Is Like Alien Life on Earth

The three kilometres (1.86 miles) beneath the ground, the home of one of the strangest lifeforms we know: the bacterium Desulforudis audaxviator. It has perfectly evolved to derive its energy from the radioactive decay of uranium in the rocks around it - which means it lives off nuclear energy instead of relying on the Sun.

https://www.sciencealert.com/bacterium-lives-off-nuclear-energy-alien-life-europa

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13 hours ago, Portre said:

Life is matter that increases local entropy by harvesting external (Gibbs free) energy to maintain internal order (paraphrasing Erwin Schrodinger "What is Life?"). Given liquid water, energy, and the periodic table, life will find a way (paraphrasing Ian Malcolm, Jurassic Park).

If chemistry happens, life (as defined above) happens, but whether intelligence or even complex (multi-cellular) life happens depends on "A Series of Fortunate Events" (book by Sean B. Carrol (the biologist, not the physicist Sean M. Carrol)).

Very interesting post thank you for sharing, I almost forgot about the importance of the interactions that Gibbs Free energy creates that allows the development of biological entities. I learned about Gibbs Free Energy in the 1980s when I finished my Bachelors Degree in Biology.

Well the reason that Gibbs free energy is important in biological research is because it enables one to predict the direction of spontaneous change within any system when you consider the constraints of constant temperature and pressure. According to what I learned those constraints generally apply to all living organisms, well at this point without other empirical data we can only assume that they only related to Carbon Based Life Forms.:yes:

One other thing taking all of this into consideration, since Gibbs free energy has the ability to regulate constant temperature and pressures the even life forms that may develop on other worlds that are Carbon based may look very dissimilar to us because of the temperature and pressure constraints even if they are Carbon Based!:yes:

Thanks for your comments they woke me up and that's a great thing:D

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

Something in that style already exists on the Earth:

This Strange Species That Lives Off Nuclear Energy Is Like Alien Life on Earth

The three kilometres (1.86 miles) beneath the ground, the home of one of the strangest lifeforms we know: the bacterium Desulforudis audaxviator. It has perfectly evolved to derive its energy from the radioactive decay of uranium in the rocks around it - which means it lives off nuclear energy instead of relying on the Sun.

https://www.sciencealert.com/bacterium-lives-off-nuclear-energy-alien-life-europa

Hey Jethro, that's really cool I have never heard of Desulforudis audaxviator!  However, the bacteria  Desulforudis audaxviator  would definitely fall under the classification of Extremophile. its certainly amazing however there one that comers to mind that in all respect is beyond the ability of any other like form on earth, and some people have claimed it true Alien ( From outer space ) but I think there more reasonable explanation!

The little I am speaking about is also classified as an Extremophile that is known as a Tardigrade which is the most resilient life form on Earth!

Surprising Discoveries About Tardigrades - New Strengths/Weaknesses

 

Edited by Manwon Lender
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On 7/29/2022 at 9:20 PM, Manwon Lender said:

Hello my friend great thread, very very interesting topic and also a topic that will unfortunately elicit more personal opinions than empirical data or scientific theories. I may be able to assist you here, currently there are two major competing Scientific theories on the subject matter your thread is based upon and they are as follows. Hopefully this will get your thread started, because as far as your topic is concerned the two Theories below are the Alpha ( The Drake Equation supports the theory that life including intelligent life plentiful throughout the Universe ) and the Omega ( The Fermi  Paradox claims the opposite and states that life is uncommon and rare throughout the Universe )

1. THE DRAKE EQUATION:  In 1959, astronomers Giuseppe Cocconi and Philip Morrisson came up with the idea that the current measuring instruments could be used to receive signals from civilizations that have formed outside our solar system. These signals should be transmitted with the wavelength of neutral hydrogen 1.42 MHz due to the universal importance of this element. More precisely, this is the 21 cm hyperfine hydrogen line.

Obviously, a prerequisite for this is the existence of such civilizations and their ability to transmit light and/or radio signals into space. Two months later, astronomer Frank Drake and the National Radio Astronomy Observatory, Green Bank, now known as the Green Bank Observatory, tried to detect such signals. For this, he studied the stars Epsilon Eridani and Tau Ceti in the wavelength spectrum 1.42 MHz, as suggested by G. Cocconi and P. Morrison. However, Drake was unable to detect any such signals

For his conference at the Green Bank Facility in 1961, however, he developed a conception, essentially the conference agenda, that would lead to an estimation of the appropriate kind. This conception was further discussed and elaborated in the following years by Drake and the nine other conference participants. The result of the work of this group, which often called itself the “Order the Dolphin,( @pallidin)  is the so-called Drake equation:

Simple mathematical formula that the Drake Equation: The chart below breaks down and explains the mathematical  {\displaystyle N=R_{*}\cdot f_{\mathrm {p} }\cdot n_{\mathrm {e} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {l} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {i} }\cdot f_{\mathrm {c} }\cdot L} 

drank-equation-1024x511.jpg

 

2.The fermi paradox is neither Fermi's nor a paradox: : The so-called Fermi paradox claims that if technological life existed anywhere else, we would see evidence of its visits to Earth--and since we do not, such life does not exist, or some special explanation is needed. Enrico Fermi, however, never published anything on this topic. On the one occasion he is known to have mentioned it, he asked "Where is everybody?"--apparently suggesting that we do not see extraterrestrials on Earth because interstellar travel may not be feasible, but not suggesting that intelligent extraterrestrial life does not exist or suggesting its absence is paradoxical.
 
The claim "they are not here; therefore they do not exist" was first published by Michael Hart, claiming that interstellar travel and colonization of the Galaxy would be inevitable if intelligent extraterrestrial life existed, and taking its absence here as proof that it does not exist anywhere. The Fermi paradox appears to originate in Hart's argument, not Fermi's question. Clarifying the origin of these ideas is important, because the Fermi paradox is seen by some as an authoritative objection to searching for evidence of extraterrestrial intelligence--cited in the U.S. Congress as a reason for killing NASA's SETI program on one occasion.
 
But evidence indicates that it misrepresents Fermi's views, misappropriates his authority, deprives the actual authors of credit, and is not a valid paradox. The fermi paradox is neither Fermi's nor a paradox - PubMed (nih.gov)

A probabilistic analysis of the Fermi paradox in terms of the Drake formula: the role of the L factor: 2003.04802.pdf (arxiv.org)

Peace Pallidin

Here is a update concerning ng the Fermi Paradox dated 15 July 2022: The Fermi paradox: impact of astrophysical processes and dynamical evolution:  The Fermi paradox: impact of astrophysical processes and dynamical evolution | International Journal of Astrobiology | Cambridge Core

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21 hours ago, joc said:

Then again...there may be life on practically every planet in the Universe.

Innumerable suns exist.  Innumerable earths revolve around these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets [sic] revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds.

Giordano Bruno 1584

Bruno was burned at the state in 1600 by the Church for reasons other than cosmology.

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21 hours ago, joc said:

Then again...there may be life on practically every planet in the Universe.

...most probably not 'carbon-based' life...

Most probably carbon based. The Earth has had billions of years to try alternatives, yet carbon-based life dominates due to the unique properties of carbon, such as its ability to form long hydrocarbon chains.  Sci-Fi likes to suggest that silicon, for example, might be used instead of carbon. Being in the same group as carbon, silicon has the same electron configuration as carbon in its outer she  ll but carbon dioxide (CO2) is a gas at standard temperature and pressure whereas silicon dioxide (SiO2) is quartz.

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On 7/29/2022 at 7:19 PM, Trelane said:

I personally think there is life elsewhere in the universe. Maybe not intelligent life as we define it, but something.

I totally agree.  And with us basing the possibility on our own formation and circumstances, we are limiting ourselves to the possibilities that could be out there.  I remember nit being able to wrap my mind around a lecture in my astronomy course:  if traveling through space from one area to another, the physics could change and our existence could unravel while we progressed.  If this is true, we don't know what could be out there in different areas of space that rely on a different set of physics, never mind biology.

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5 minutes ago, glorybebe said:

I totally agree.  And with us basing the possibility on our own formation and circumstances, we are limiting ourselves to the possibilities that could be out there.  I remember nit being able to wrap my mind around a lecture in my astronomy course:  if traveling through space from one area to another, the physics could change and our existence could unravel while we progressed.  If this is true, we don't know what could be out there in different areas of space that rely on a different set of physics, never mind biology.

I'd see about getting a refund for that astronomy class.  Everywhere we have looked in the visible universe, physics is the same. There's a lot of weird going on out there, but it's explainable weirdness (well, except the black hole/information paradox and the whole lowest entropy at the beginning). Could something weird be going on beyond the visible horizon?  Weirder than quantum mechanics and relativity? Possibly though unlikely, but we'll never know. We can't see beyond that horizon and never will, so the question is moot.

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2 hours ago, Portre said:

Innumerable suns exist.  Innumerable earths revolve around these suns in a manner similar to the way the seven planets [sic] revolve around our sun. Living beings inhabit these worlds.

Giordano Bruno 1584

Bruno was burned at the state in 1600 by the Church for reasons other than cosmology.

Stake.  Burned at the stake.

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1 hour ago, Portre said:

Most probably carbon based. The Earth has had billions of years to try alternatives, yet carbon-based life dominates due to the unique properties of carbon, such as its ability to form long hydrocarbon chains.  Sci-Fi likes to suggest that silicon, for example, might be used instead of carbon. Being in the same group as carbon, silicon has the same electron configuration as carbon in its outer she  ll but carbon dioxide (CO2) is a gas at standard temperature and pressure whereas silicon dioxide (SiO2) is quartz.

I don't really know much about the different elements except that elements react differently to different circumstance.  So, more or less...a carbon based life form can not exist on Mercury...but what about a mercury based life form...that sort of thing you know...

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2 minutes ago, Portre said:

Stake.  Burned at the stake.

Cosmology is heresy and heresy is enough to burn you at the stake.

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7 minutes ago, Portre said:

I'd see about getting a refund for that astronomy class.  Everywhere we have looked in the visible universe, physics is the same. There's a lot of weird going on out there, but it's explainable weirdness (well, except the black hole/information paradox and the whole lowest entropy at the beginning). Could something weird be going on beyond the visible horizon?  Weirder than quantum mechanics and relativity? Possibly though unlikely, but we'll never know. We can't see beyond that horizon and never will, so the question is moot.

I am not talking about anything outside physics.  Physics is what is.  When I'm talking about other life forms than carbon based I am just exploring the possibility of a mechanical process that involves other elements than carbon...keeping in mind that we have never been able to create anything living from carbon...so how are we to conclude there couldn't be life forms where other elements are key...just asking not illustrating belief of any kind. 

I agree with you wholeheartedly...physics is universal...literally

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Posted (edited)

There are almost certainly forms of life other than ourselves in the universe. The only reason for thinking the Earth is unique is a religious one- God only had an interest in us, for an unknoweable reason.

(On the other hand, since he disappeared after making us, perhaps he is busy making life elsewhere?- he moves in mysterious ways, after all). 

This is an interesting article, I think:

Do aliens exist? We asked five experts (theconversation.com)

 

 

Edited by Silver
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