Are we 100% "alone" in the Universe?

[Portre]

19 hours ago, joc said:

Again...ahem...it is the unanswerable question.  

How did the Universe get here.  Big Bang doesn't answer it.  God doesn't answer it.  That it has always been doesn't answer it.  It is the unanswerable enigma.  And the other side of it is...how do we know it exists?

Boltzmann Brain

[Portre]

20 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Why should it not exist? 

Big bang theory predicts equal matter and anti-matter and as we learned from Star Trek, matter and anti-matter annihilate each other, but when I look out my window, looks like a lot more matter than anti-matter hence why should it exist?

[psyche101]

6 hours ago, zep73 said:

Put your loyalty to science aside for a moment, and look at this with true skepticism and logic. Can you do that?

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It's dead molecules coming alive through chemistry. We have many ideas how it happened, but no solid theory. The hypothesis is not testable/reproducible. Reproducibility is a cornerstone in scientific rigor. It's not there in abiogenesis.

And somehow this (so far) untestable hypothesis has become truth. That's not science.

The first living cell was not just a miracle, it was several miracles put together to make an even bigger miracle. A self replicating miracle with genes and a mitochondria. The cell membrane itself is a very intricate construction. For all those intricate parts to emerge and come together as one is mindblowing. It should not have happened. The odds against it were staggering.

I'm not looking for a discussion about this, just a recognition that those incredible chemical miracles were extremely unlikely to happen. (Yet they did.)

So when people talk about (any form of) life on other planets as obvious, the untested hypothesis has gone too far IMO. We simply can't make that call before we know how it happened here.

 

Well if you do not want to discuss it you should not have posted. 

Scepticism? You're for real aren't you? You're talking to ME now zep. That was a bad way to approach the subject.

And now I'm going to tell you how arrogant your idea is seeing as you shared it. 

Because we have not observed abiogenesis it's a miracle? Are Urey and Miller gods then? They did recreate every building block for life and then some. Do we not have solid foundation to hypothesize RNA evolution? 

We have unraveled the path just as we have with the universe. We have followed it all the way back to just before the point of conception. We are now working towards understanding that first step. The path has revealed what we need to look for just like the Higgs boson story. 50 years of knowing what to look for but not having the tech to yet see it.

You're distrust of science appears more based upon your ego in that you seem to assume you can out think answers laterally. That's pretty bloody arrogant and egotistical on your behalf there. I take it your arrogance is born your of your personal preference for the silly simulation hypothesis. If that s your bag so be it, but it's more removed from science and rational investigation than anything you have disparaged above. 

The same building blocks for life exist in perfect conditions literally billions of locations throughout the galaxy, and them multiplied by billions again for the universe. You're disdain for that fact seems more religious than thought based.

[psyche101]

23 minutes ago, Portre said:

Big bang theory predicts equal matter and anti-matter and as we learned from Star Trek, matter and anti-matter annihilate each other, but when I look out my window, looks like a lot more matter than anti-matter hence why should it exist?

Well departing from star trek we find imbalances in many systems. 

This is why the LHC exists. To observe a hypothesis and make it fact 

The answers will lie in QM. Quarks in particular and the culmination of their existence. Mesons. Think about it. Neutral mesons have the ability the become anti mesons and change back to mesons. That's all the way through, so internally, anti quarks and turning into quarks and back again. 

That process right there isn't symmetrical. 

And there's the imbalance. That's how we get more matter than anti matter. Or at least we assume it is matter. Everything we see and call matter could be anti matter. Doesn't really matter from our perspective. 

That's why matter should exist. Because QM is unstable. 

[+Desertrat56]

On 7/29/2022 at 8:09 PM, pallidin said:

A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

no we are not alone.

[zep73]

20 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

you should not have posted.

Exactly. I saw this happening. You getting all worked up for no good reason and trash talking me.
You are a brute, to both friends and opponents. You need to work on your manners.

Quote

You're distrust of science

Are you kidding me? I don't distrust science.
I am defending the scientific method.
It is scientific misconduct to accept something as truth without proof.

The only one here who's arrogant is you, my friend. For thinking you can define science, and for thinking you represent it. You don't.

Quote

I take it your arrogance is born your of your personal preference for the silly simulation hypothesis.

What the hell does that have to do with this??? Now you're just being a prick.

Please save your anger and aggression for those who deserve it. I'm just giving my fact based opinion. You might not like it or agree, but that really doesn't matter.

Peace bro.

[Portre]

On 7/29/2022 at 7:09 PM, pallidin said:

A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

In an infinite universe, there are an infinite number of planets with life, an infinite number with intelligent life.  That's just how infinities work.

[Portre]

2 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Well departing from star trek we find imbalances in many systems. 

This is why the LHC exists. To observe a hypothesis and make it fact 

The answers will lie in QM. Quarks in particular and the culmination of their existence. Mesons. Think about it. Neutral mesons have the ability the become anti mesons and change back to mesons. That's all the way through, so internally, anti quarks and turning into quarks and back again. 

That process right there isn't symmetrical. 

And there's the imbalance. That's how we get more matter than anti matter. Or at least we assume it is matter. Everything we see and call matter could be anti matter. Doesn't really matter from our perspective. 

That's why matter should exist. Because QM is unstable. 

I'll see your asymmetry and raise you a fine-tuned universe.

[psyche101]

39 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Exactly. I saw this happening. You getting all worked up for no good reason and trash talking me.
You are a brute, to both friends and opponents. You need to work on your manners.

No I don't.

You said to put loyalty aside and be sceptical. I told you that was a really bad approach. Instead of seeing yourself as a benchmark you should be able to accept criticism where it's applied. It's insulting that you would see others as less observant than yourself. 

39 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Are you kidding me? I don't distrust science.
I am defending the scientific method.
It is scientific misconduct to accept something as truth without proof.

It's also scientific to follow the evidence, which is lacking in your idea. 

39 minutes ago, zep73 said:

The only one here who's arrogant is you, my friend. For thinking you can define science, and for thinking you represent it. You don't.

I didn't say I did. There's your arrogance again and huge leaps of assumption. 

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

Are Urey and Miller gods then? They did recreate every building block for life and then some. Do we not have solid foundation to hypothesize RNA evolution? 

Am I defining science? 

No I'm not. I'm following it. 

39 minutes ago, zep73 said:

What the hell does that have to do with this??? Now you're just being a prick.

Please save your anger and aggression for those who deserve it. I'm just giving my fact based opinion. You might not like it or agree, but that really doesn't matter.

And there you go again. What's it got to do with anything? A record of you departing from science. 

39 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Peace bro.

No worries, but you do your bit too.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, Portre said:

I'll see your asymmetry and raise you a fine-tuned universe.

Creationism????

Have you got anything else?

[zep73]

17 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

What's it got to do with anything? A record of you departing from science.

It explains quantum mechanics. Isn't that the purpose of theories and hypotheses? To explain physical phenomena?
It does so better than superdeterminism and the many worlds interpretation. Excuse me for preferring a logical solution.

Quote

No worries, but you do your bit too.

Deal.

Now let's leave this be. Please.

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, zep73 said:

It explains quantum mechanics. Isn't that the purpose of theories and hypotheses? To explain physical phenomena?
It does so better than superdeterminism and the many worlds interpretation. Excuse me for preferring a logical solution.

No. It substituted man's god for a computer. 

1 minute ago, zep73 said:

Deal.

Now let's leave this be. Please.

Your call there.

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 8/4/2022 at 2:27 AM, zep73 said:

Do you mean this: https://www.amnh.org/learn-teach/curriculum-collections/cosmic-horizons-book/fossil-microbes-mars ?

It was dismissed as evidence long ago.

Take care 

Guten Morgen, mein Genosse, no Zep I was aware of the information you posted, but here is what I was taking about! What is confusing is the article you posted in your link does dismiss anything, I think you posted the wrong article! But after after digging in the subject a little further I discover that the information was updated, but not long ago it was actually debunked this year!   An Update from ALH84001 https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/an-update-from-alh84001/ : 22 Jan 2022   HOWEVER Zep I was aware the Meteorite was debunked, but I wasn’t talking about the Meteorite, Zep but I can see why you assumed I was I should have been more clear for that I apologize my friend! 

Zep this is what I was referring to, in my original comments!  The Mars Discover Rover made a very interesting discovery, this what I was talking about not the Meteorite:

NASA Finds Ancient Organic Material, Mysterious Methane on Mars  https://mars.nasa.gov/news/8347/nasa-finds-ancient-organic-material-mysterious-methane-on-mars/

Water-rock chemistry might have generated the methane, but scientists cannot rule out the possibility of biological origins. Methane previously had been detected in Mars' atmosphere in large, unpredictable plumes. This new result shows that low levels of methane within Gale Crater repeatedly peak in warm, summer months and drop in the winter every year.

 

Finding Organic Molecules

To identify organic material in the Martian soil, Curiosity drilled into sedimentary rocks known as mudstone from four areas in Gale Crater. This mudstone gradually formed billions of years ago from silt that accumulated at the bottom of the ancient lake. The rock samples were analyzed by SAM, which uses an oven to heat the samples (in excess of 900 degrees Fahrenheit, or 500 degrees Celsius) to release organic molecules from the powdered rock.

Thiophenes on Mars: Biotic or Abiotic Origin https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ast.2019.2139 Zep this paper is Peer Reviewed, and supported by NASA

Abstract

The question whether organic compounds occur on Mars remained unanswered for decades. However, the recent discovery of various classes of organic matter in martian sediments by the Curiosity rover seems to strongly suggest that indigenous organic compounds exist on Mars. One intriguing group of detected organic compounds were thiophenes, which typically occur on Earth in kerogen, coal, and crude oil as well as in stromatolites and microfossils. Here we provide a brief synopsis of conceivable pathways for the generation and degradation of thiophenes on Mars. We show that the origin of thiophene derivatives can either be biotic or abiotic, for example, through sulfur incorporation in organic matter during early diagenesis. The potential of thiophenes to represent martian biomarkers is discussed as well as a correlation between abundances of thiophenes and sulfate-bearing minerals. Finally, this study provides suggestions for future investigations on Mars and in Earth-based laboratories to answer the question whether the martian thiophenes are of biological origin.

• Peace my Brother!

 

 

[Portre]

On 8/3/2022 at 6:39 PM, psyche101 said:

Creationism????

Have you got anything else?

Life only uses left-handed amino acids and only right-handed carbohydrates

[+Desertrat56]

30 minutes ago, Portre said:

Life only uses left-handed amino acids and only right-handed carbohydrates

Amino acids and carbohydrates don't have hands.  Is there some other more reasonable way you can rephrase this nonsens?

Edited August 5, 2022 by Desertrat56

[Portre]

3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Amino acids and carbohydrates don't have hands.  Is there some other more reasonable way you can rephrase this nonsens?

Left- and right-handedness refers to molecules that can’t be superimposed on their mirror images and that rotate polarized light in opposite directions.

Is this more reasonable?

[+Desertrat56]

20 minutes ago, Portre said:

Left- and right-handedness refers to molecules that can’t be superimposed on their mirror images and that rotate polarized light in opposite directions.

Is this more reasonable?

It would be if you told me where you got that definition.

[Portre]

11 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

It would be if you told me where you got that definition.

It is a common phrase in biology.  You can use your favorite internet search engine to look stuff up. Try "Left-handed amino acids"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucedorminey/2013/06/29/lifes-left-handed-amino-acids-remain-astrobiological-head-scratcher/?sh=293a32893b6d

https://bigthink.com/13-8/chirality-asymmetry-life/

 

[zep73]

21 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

The question whether organic compounds occur on Mars remained unanswered for decades. However, the recent discovery of various classes of organic matter in martian sediments by the Curiosity rover seems to strongly suggest that indigenous organic compounds exist on Mars. One intriguing group of detected organic compounds were thiophenes, which typically occur on Earth in kerogen, coal, and crude oil as well as in stromatolites and microfossils. Here we provide a brief synopsis of conceivable pathways for the generation and degradation of thiophenes on Mars. We show that the origin of thiophene derivatives can either be biotic or abiotic, for example, through sulfur incorporation in organic matter during early diagenesis. The potential of thiophenes to represent martian biomarkers is discussed as well as a correlation between abundances of thiophenes and sulfate-bearing minerals. Finally, this study provides suggestions for future investigations on Mars and in Earth-based laboratories to answer the question whether the martian thiophenes are of biological origin.

Thank you for elaborating.

It is very intriguing, but nowhere near evidence of life. What we need are actual fossils. And then we need to rule out panspermia.

Peace my friend 

[Rlyeh]

On 8/4/2022 at 1:48 AM, zep73 said:

Abiogenesis is a hypothesis, not a theory. It's dead molecules coming alive through chemistry.

No such thing as a dead molecule.

[zep73]

17 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

No such thing as a dead molecule.

I know, but it sounds kinda cool. I think they used the phrase on wikipedia.

[zep73]

@Grim Reaper 6

8 hours ago, zep73 said:

And then we need to rule out panspermia.

By panspermia I mean life from an external source. In this case Earth.

[Grim Reaper 6]

30 minutes ago, zep73 said:

@Grim Reaper 6

By panspermia I mean life from an external source. In this case Earth.

Ok that fine with Zep, since you say it must be ruled out prove it scientifically Peer reviewed journals by Astrobiologists. Nothing shot of is worth discussing, because I have Peer Reviewed Journals from Astrobologist whose theories are excepted worldwide by th Astrobioltcal community, and by the way 80% plus of that scientific community!

So again once more let me be clear, I don’t want to discuss personal opinions! The only information I will find acceptable must come from Astrobiologists and their theories must be published in Peer Reviewed Journals by Astrobiologists and the Journals must be published In reputable Journals, not from journals where anyone can pay to have their journals published!

Last

1. Definition of life residue left from living organisms: a constituent structural unit (such as a group or monomer) of a usually complex moleculeamino acid residues from hydrolysis of protein.

2. Definition of life:  The quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

   A. : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

  B  : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see METABOLISM sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

C : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
 

 Last keep in mind Zep just to give something else to consider Panspermia is still happening today
 

Peace Zep!

 

 

9 hours ago, zep73 said:

Thank you for elaborating.

It is very intriguing, but nowhere near evidence of life. What we need are actual fossils. And then we need to rule out panspermia.

Peace my friend 

 

[Alchopwn]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:09 PM, pallidin said:

A very old topic, I'm sure, but any more thoughts???

Billions and billions of galaxies, yet some say that the human race is entirely alone in this incredibly vast universe.

Your thoughts?

Are we truly alone when we have the wonderful animal life of this planet to keep us company?

[zep73]

9 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Ok that fine with Zep, since you say it must be ruled out prove it scientifically Peer reviewed journals by Astrobiologists. Nothing shot of is worth discussing, because I have Peer Reviewed Journals from Astrobologist whose theories are excepted worldwide by th Astrobioltcal community, and by the way 80% plus of that scientific community!

So again once more let me be clear, I don’t want to discuss personal opinions! The only information I will find acceptable must come from Astrobiologists and their theories must be published in Peer Reviewed Journals by Astrobiologists and the Journals must be published In reputable Journals, not from journals where anyone can pay to have their journals published!

Last

1. Definition of life residue left from living organisms: a constituent structural unit (such as a group or monomer) of a usually complex moleculeamino acid residues from hydrolysis of protein.

2. Definition of life:  The quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

   A. : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

  B  : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism (see METABOLISM sense 1), growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

C : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual
 

 Last keep in mind Zep just to give something else to consider Panspermia is still happening today
 

Peace Zep!

Guten abend mein freund 

The discovery of extraterrestrial life would be the biggest discovery in human history, so we need to be absolutely sure."Could be" just doesn't cut it. It needs to be "breaking news" all over the world.