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Consciousness may persist after death, study suggests


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I am not sure this is true. If I have consciousness I can manifest myself and have control over my brain and body 

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48 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

I am not sure this is true. If I have consciousness I can manifest myself and have control over my brain and body 

If you have a brain and a body...you have control over your consciousness...

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8 hours ago, joc said:

If you have a brain and a body...you have control over your consciousness...

 Yes it's a 2 way manifest type of relation so implicitly you are saying that when body dies, control over conscious disappears so therefore those 20 seconds are still not standing up as good theory. 

 I would say instead that If when someone dies, there's a possibility that the subconscious not consciousness might work in some state of memory flashback and dreams.  This is the point of no return for majority of us and likely this tides our known world to the metaphysical transgression plan.

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53 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

 Yes it's a 2 way manifest type of relation so implicitly you are saying that when body dies, control over conscious disappears so therefore those 20 seconds are still not standing up as good theory. 

 I would say instead that If when someone dies, there's a possibility that the subconscious not consciousness might work in some state of memory flashback and dreams.  This is the point of no return for majority of us and likely this tides our known world to the metaphysical transgression plan.

No, what I am saying is that when the body dies...consciousness dies as well.  Consciousness is a creation of the brain.    It does not, cannot continue without the brain.  The brain is the generator.  No brain...no consciousness.  I don't care about 20 seconds...it's all hogwash.  When  you are dead...you are dead.  And if  you come back to life you weren't dead.  And if  you don't come back to life...there is no  more consciousness for you.  Nothing.  You are dead.

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energy creates mind and mind creates energy - this ancient taoist principle.

energy cannot be destroyed - this scientific principle

after death energy goes on to new entity - this buddha principle

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14 hours ago, oldnatcole said:

after death energy goes on to new entity - this buddha principle

That 'new entity' is bacteria, maggots, beetles, and wurms. So Buddha was right.

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17 hours ago, oldnatcole said:

energy creates mind and mind creates energy - this ancient taoist principle.

energy cannot be destroyed - this scientific principle

after death energy goes on to new entity - this buddha principle

And all of that is BS.   Belief System.

The Truth:   Energy is not Conscious.  Consciousness is a brain function.  Without the brain functioning Consciousness cannot exist.

 It isn't that Energy cannot be destroyed (as though it were a thing, it isn't)  Energy is constant change.  There is nothing static in the universe.  But that has absolutely nothing to do with Consciousness.

Edited by joc
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21 hours ago, joc said:

Consciousness is a creation of the brain

But isn't this what the debate has been about for centuries? Whether the brain is a creator of consciousness, or whether it is an accomodater or receiver of consciousness.

You earlier stated that you cannot prove a negative, that is, prove something does not exist. That may be true, but your statement is not a negative, it is a positive statement that the brain is a creator of consciousness rather than an accomodater or receiver of consciousness. Just because conscious awareness seems to be affected or disappear upon the damaging or destruction of the brain does not necessarily mean it did not or cannot exist otherwise.

I have been oh so reluctant to even respond to this thread, but a certain synchronicity this morning had me decide to post something.

I personally don't think a committed materialist can prove anything to a committed spiritualist, just as I don't believe a committed spiritualist can prove anything to a committed materialist.

After checking this thread earlier and deciding to move on without participating, I immediately ran across the article in the provided link with absolutely no intent of further consideration on the topic or seeking further information on the topic. It was purely by happenstance. So, I just thought I'd post it as another (unproveable) view on the topic. It just adds some further context.

https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia3/ciencia_consciousawakening131.htm

I know it won't really convince anyone one way or the other. Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Sojo

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On 8/19/2022 at 10:26 PM, joc said:

Our knowledge is not primitive.  The Belief Systems are primitive.  Belief equals NOT knowing.

 

Your views on belief fascinate me.   I’ve heard you say that you ,or we, either know things or don’t know things and that you have no beliefs or disbeliefs….   Now you state that belief equals Not knowing.       If I told you  it’s raining here…since you don’t know if that is ‘true’ or not …wouldn’t you have to believe me…or not?    I mean, you could refuse to consider my statement…but if you chose to consider my statement you would have no choice but to choose  ;)    between belief or disbelief?     I think you do believe and disbelieve sometimes ..but just refuse to believe it!  :P       BTW, it’s not raining here.   ?  Believe me?    ..and not caring doesn’t count! :P

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1 hour ago, lightly said:

Your views on belief fascinate me.   I’ve heard you say that you ,or we, either know things or don’t know things and that you have no beliefs or disbeliefs….   Now you state that belief equals Not knowing.       If I told you  it’s raining here…since you don’t know if that is ‘true’ or not …wouldn’t you have to believe me…or not?    I mean, you could refuse to consider my statement…but if you chose to consider my statement you would have no choice but to choose  ;)    between belief or disbelief?     I think you do believe and disbelieve sometimes ..but just refuse to believe it!  :P       BTW, it’s not raining here.   ?  Believe me?    ..and not caring doesn’t count! :P

I don't believe you or disbelieve you.  You are correct...I do not know if it is raining there.  But if I said...I believe you...then I am believing something that I do not know.  If I say...I do not believe you...then I am still believing something that I do not know.  It is either raining there or it is not.  One of those statements is true regardless of anyone's belief about it.

 

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44 minutes ago, joc said:

I don't believe you or disbelieve you.  You are correct...I do not know if it is raining there But if I said...I believe you...then I am believing something that I do not know.  If I say...I do not believe you...then I am still believing something that I do not know.  It is either raining there or it is not.  One of those statements is true regardless of anyone's belief about it.

 

:lol:   I knew you’d say that!   Thanks, and I believe I do see what you mean,  it actually does make perfect sense!:)    I’m just an old hillbilly daydream believer! :P  I know nothing ,with absolute certainty!     …I wonder though, if someone yelled ..”Lookout joc! that ladder is falling toward you!!*”.  .  But, because you never believe or disbelieve anything,,, would you just think…(( I don’t know that )). and have a ladder fall on you? ;)      But ,to be fair, I guess believing something said to you is different than believing in things and concepts.?   So, to make a long story longer,   I getcha now.    Thanks bud. 

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4 hours ago, joc said:

And all of that is BS.   Belief System.

The Truth:   Energy is not Conscious.  Consciousness is a brain function.  Without the brain functioning Consciousness cannot exist.

 It isn't that Energy cannot be destroyed (as though it were a thing, it isn't)  Energy is constant change.  There is nothing static in the universe.  But that has absolutely nothing to do with Consciousness.

first, you need re-education.

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Law_of_conservation_of_energy

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside. This is particularly confusing in the case of non-conservative forces, where energy is converted from mechanical energy into thermal energy, but the overall energy does remain the same. The only way to use energy is to transform energy from one form to another."

second, body brain will not function without energy transformed into chemical energy. without energy you have no mind. you would be dead. unless in brain dead coma because hospital machines only make your lung with heart work.

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38 minutes ago, oldnatcole said:

first, you need re-education.

https://energyeducation.ca/encyclopedia/Law_of_conservation_of_energy

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside. This is particularly confusing in the case of non-conservative forces, where energy is converted from mechanical energy into thermal energy, but the overall energy does remain the same. The only way to use energy is to transform energy from one form to another."

second, body brain will not function without energy transformed into chemical energy. without energy you have no mind. you would be dead. unless in brain dead coma because hospital machines only make your lung with heart work.

I need no re-education.  

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On 8/21/2022 at 4:31 AM, oldnatcole said:

energy creates mind and mind creates energy - this ancient taoist principle.

energy cannot be destroyed - this scientific principle

after death energy goes on to new entity - this buddha principle

The energy in your body dissipates as heat.

Basic thermodynamics. 

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On 8/19/2022 at 5:09 PM, openozy said:

But you are referring to religious belief it seems, I don't include this in my idea of paranormal.

No paranormal too.

There's no rhyme or reason there. It's simply accepted as a possibility, it's not. When the conclusion is undefined you are back at square one. You can't conclude with an idea.

Nobody ever attempted to indicate how the paranormal situation could come to exist. That's the big difference. Science doesn't simply offer a conclusion. It shows why the conclusion is the most likely outcome. 

In that sense it's very much like religion in that a great many assumptions are considered fact. 

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On 8/20/2022 at 9:31 AM, openozy said:

That was a good post LG except I'm pretty sure this part has been proven wrong.

No, you could not be more wrong.

That's how many become skeptics. 

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On 8/20/2022 at 12:51 PM, openozy said:

But it will be in the distant future and the academics of today will look like knuckle draggers. That's if humans survive that long, which is highly unlikely. I BELIEVE this to be true but no one knows.

Doesn't this defy paranormal beliefs?

The paranormal has been proposed for thousands of years. Many disproved, none proven. 

Yet science goes from strength to strength standing on the shoulders of giants. Proof after proof, offering predictability and repeatability upon demand, all backed by other sciences. 

Surely that's offering a bigger picture?

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Bodies do not give rise to consciousness.  Bodies arise within fields of awareness. 

To not have experienced this aspect of reality and try to be involved in a conversation about it, is like a virgin talking about what sex is and what it's like.  Or a blind from birth person trying to explain and describe the nature of color spectrum and theory.

 

 

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1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

Bodies do not give rise to consciousness.  Bodies arise within fields of awareness. 

That makes no sense.

Consciousness houses awareness.

1 hour ago, quiXilver said:

To not have experienced this aspect of reality and try to be involved in a conversation about it, is like a virgin talking about what sex is and what it's like.  Or a blind from birth person trying to explain and describe the nature of color spectrum and theory.

Those things can be described. You haven't tried to describe anything. You just offered an incorrect definition. 

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6 hours ago, psyche101 said:

Yet science goes from strength to strength standing on the shoulders of giants. Proof after proof, offering predictability and repeatability upon demand, all backed by other sciences.

It might be but they thought they knew it all 3000 years ago which they didn't and they think the same now, what about another 3000 years. You really don't know because you can't. Backed by all known sciences atm is not the future.

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1 hour ago, openozy said:

It might be but they thought they knew it all 3000 years ago which they didn't and they think the same now, what about another 3000 years. You really don't know because you can't. Backed by all known sciences atm is not the future.

530 years ago, the common belief was that the world was flat like a pancake...and if one went far enough into the ocean, one would literally fall off of the Earth into the great abyss.  

3000 years ago?  You are comparing the magical age of today with ancient times?   Why?  Do you understand how magical this time is.  Not magical because of magic...but magical because of Science.  Let me just help you think about it...

hmmmmmmmmmmm

...I walk over to a box and push a button...ice appears in my cup.   I place the cup into another box and push a button and all of the ice will melt and the water will boil.  I open the door of another box and push a button and the box becomes alive and will take me to another box.  I step into that box and fly like a bird thousands of miles away in just minutes.  I step out of that box and take a small box out of my pocket and communicate directly with anyone in the world.  I ask the box a question and it gives me a hundred thousand answers in less than a second.  For example, I ask the box:  How long have humans been living in a box orbiting the Earth?  And the box  answers:  

Quote

The space station has been continuously occupied since November 2000. An international crew of seven people live and work while traveling at a speed of five miles per second, orbiting Earth about every 90 minutes. Sometimes more are aboard the station during a crew handover.

...and you want to compare today's knowledge to 3000 year old belief?   

If consciousness is a thing outside of the life force...then you should be very, very afraid of Artificial Intelligence...if we are just on a ride of our own choosing...what will happen when that Consciousness decides to take a ride in an AI Robot?  See how I just stepped from the world of knowledge to the world of fantasy?  The world of knowledge is real.  Everything else...all belief...all speculation...all of it...Fantasy.

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1 hour ago, joc said:

.and you want to compare today's knowledge to 3000 year old belief? 

That's supposedly when science started. I'm saying how much we have learnt in 3000 years and how much more we will know 3000 years into the future. The way our knowledge, technology is accelerating nobody would have any idea how it will branch out.

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19 hours ago, joc said:

I need no re-education.  

ha! guess like old saying, can't teach old dog new knowledge.

2 hours ago, joc said:

If consciousness is a thing outside of the life force...then you should be very, very afraid of Artificial Intelligence...if we are just on a ride of our own choosing...what will happen when that Consciousness decides to take a ride in an AI Robot?  See how I just stepped from the world of knowledge to the world of fantasy?  The world of knowledge is real.  Everything else...all belief...all speculation...all of it...Fantasy.

now that you said that, surprise!

 

Quote

 

Making Waves

An unusual new idea in neuroscience suggests that our consciousness is derived from a field of electromagnetic waves given off by neurons as they fire.

The idea is that these waves of electrical activity get sent out by neurons and, as they propagate across swaths of the brain, orchestrate our entire conscious experience. The research, published last month in the journal Neuroscience of Consciousness, offers more theory than tangible evidence, but the author says it could pave the way for robots that genuinely think and feel.

It's Alive!

That author is Johnjoe McFadden, a molecular geneticist and director of quantum biology at the University of Surrey, who points to flaws in other models of consciousness as the reason that we don't have sentient artificial intelligence or robots capable of achieving consciousness.

By recreating these electrical waves in machinery, McFadden suggests, engineers might be able to pull it off.

Dualism Reborn

McFadden's hypothesis veers away from most neuroscientists, who generally see consciousness as a narrative that our brain constructs out of our senses, perceptions, and actions. Instead, McFadden returns to a more empirical version of dualism — the idea that consciousness stems from something other than our brain matter — in this case energy.

"How brain matter becomes aware and manages to think is a mystery that has been pondered by philosophers, theologians, mystics and ordinary people for millennia," McFadden said in a press release. "I believe this mystery has now been solved, and that consciousness is the experience of nerves plugging into the brain's self-generated electromagnetic field to drive what we call 'free will' and our voluntary actions."

 

https://futurism.com/the-byte/research-claims-consciousness-itself-energy-field

original article source, but long complicated read.

Integrating information in the brain’s EM field: the cemi field theory of consciousness

 

much like ancient taiost principle - energy creates mind and mind creates energy.

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2 hours ago, joc said:

530 years ago, the common belief was that the world was flat like a pancake...

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/200606/history.cfm
         (had to respond;)   Ya, in some places, but..the ancient Greeks believed the earth to be a sphere about 2500 years ago…and one of them, Eratosthenes even estimated ,quite accurately!  it’s circumference!     The link tells how he did it!

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1 hour ago, openozy said:

That's supposedly when science started. I'm saying how much we have learnt in 3000 years and how much more we will know 3000 years into the future. The way our knowledge, technology is accelerating nobody would have any idea how it will branch out.

Technology is accelerating for sure.  To be completely clear here...3000 years ago we are talking about ancient times...there was no 'scientific knowledge'.  It wasn't until well into the 20th century that we started making really significant discoveries.  And while there is so much we don't know...I seriously doubt any scientific discovery is going to turn everything we do know on it's head.  More the reverse I would think...knowledge builds on knowledge.

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