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Consciousness may persist after death, study suggests


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3 minutes ago, oldnatcole said:

then I have no idea why you keep replying to me. what is the argument?

I'm saying we know what energy there is and where it goes. 

It's accounted for. 

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11 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I'm saying we know what energy there is and where it goes. 

It's accounted for. 

I don't understand your meaning "accounted for"? you mean we keep track of energy every second after death? so then we would know the moment when energy goes into new bodies at birth? when do we know? at conception? mid term? at birth?

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1 hour ago, oldnatcole said:

I don't understand your meaning "accounted for"? you mean we keep track of energy every second after death? so then we would know the moment when energy goes into new bodies at birth? when do we know? at conception? mid term? at birth?

Accounted for means there's no loss and no mystery. We know what energy we have and where it goes. 

A fetus starts using energy from the moment cells start dividing. 

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15 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Accounted for means there's no loss and no mystery. We know what energy we have and where it goes. 

A fetus starts using energy from the moment cells start dividing. 

so we are in agreement then? but who said energy is "loss" or "mystery"?

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On 8/24/2022 at 9:10 AM, psyche101 said:

There's just no difference in the brain is the thing. And the brain is very adaptive. There's no good reason to think it's not possible.

But our brains are still evolving, 100 years isn't long but it's still 4 gens or so along which must count. I think there will be a slight difference.

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if we came from nothing then nothing would remain devoid of anything. yet there is something therefore there cannot be nothing.

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9 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

I belong to one, that I visit infrequently that is exactly that, everyone agreeing and there are only 2 emojis allowed, the Thumbs up and the smiley with heart eyes.   So, no one is allowed to actually discuss anything.   It is boring, to the extent that they have threads titled "Toilet Talk", etc.    So toilet talk is ok, disagreeing with someone is not.  No discussion.

This forum, on the other hand has some interesting discussion and yes, some get nasty or rude, but there is a report button and an ignore option.   And anyone who has been around the parnormal for a year or more should understand there will always be nay sayers and you just need to toughen up and accept that.   

Yeah I'm on a site that is mostly people that have had paranormal experiences but they are also healthily skeptical. They are all nice people and you can have a joke. The thing they all have is a spiritual connection. I do like this site with some very knowledgeable members and have learnt quits a bit on here. As you say, after a while you accept other's opinions better and don't take it to heart because you can't blame people for not believing, hearing some reports raises a smile on me even, though I've had similar things occur. Just how this is.

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On 8/23/2022 at 3:30 AM, openozy said:

I didn't say you were but people thinking they will learn as much today as compared to people in 3000 years time is.

Hi Open

3000 years ago people Leary skills most today don’t know or use. I would tend to think they had as much to learn as we do today just about different things. People 3000 years form now will likely see us in the same way some today think that 3000 years ago how primate they were then without understanding the conditions they lived in them or what they needed to know or did know.

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1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Open

3000 years ago people Leary skills most today don’t know or use. I would tend to think they had as much to learn as we do today just about different things. People 3000 years form now will likely see us in the same way some today think that 3000 years ago how primate they were then without understanding the conditions they lived in them or what they needed to know or did know.

That's true, most people of today would not have the skills to survive 3000 years ago. Maybe we are not getting more intelligent but we are getting softer and weaker I think. I can imagine the powder puffs of the future, lol.

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33 minutes ago, openozy said:

That's true, most people of today would not have the skills to survive 3000 years ago. Maybe we are not getting more intelligent but we are getting softer and weaker I think. I can imagine the powder puffs of the future, lol.

Hi Open

Our species like all species adapt to our environment the only difference is that we can and alway have utilized and manipulated our environments to our advantage. I am glad others do not have the life I grew up in even if I have no regrets about having lived it. 
each of us have different knowledge bases, we have learned things others don’t and vice versa which doesn’t change or diminish the level of intelligence needed to learn then go forward it is and always has been our nature to do so.

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On 8/22/2022 at 2:17 PM, lightly said:

I believe what I know. .and I know what I believe!    But, I’m capable of being wrong about both.  :P

I know what I know...and belief has nothing to do with.  I am wrong about a lot of things that I don't know.  But I am absolutely 100% correct about what I do know.

ya know?

I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.B)

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On 8/22/2022 at 9:34 AM, oldnatcole said:

ha! guess like old saying, can't teach old dog new knowledge.

now that you said that, surprise!

 

https://futurism.com/the-byte/research-claims-consciousness-itself-energy-field

original article source, but long complicated read.

Integrating information in the brain’s EM field: the cemi field theory of consciousness

 

much like ancient taiost principle - energy creates mind and mind creates energy.

Mind does not create energy.  Energy just is.  Like I said before energy is constant change nothing more.  If a thing exists it is undergoing constant change. The 'change' is what we call energy.  Energy creates mind is like saying energy creates rain.  But what causes the rain to fall?  Riddle me that oldnatcole!  What causes rain to fall?

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7 hours ago, joc said:

Mind does not create energy.  Energy just is.  Like I said before energy is constant change nothing more.  If a thing exists it is undergoing constant change. The 'change' is what we call energy.  Energy creates mind is like saying energy creates rain.  But what causes the rain to fall?  Riddle me that oldnatcole!  What causes rain to fall?

Without energy in body there is no conscious mind. body and mind cannot survive without energy. body becomes dead. no riddles required.

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33 minutes ago, oldnatcole said:

Without energy in body there is no conscious mind. body and mind cannot survive without energy. body becomes dead. no riddles required.

Question:  What causes the rain to fall?  

Answer:  Gravity.

I think you are equating energy with Consciousness or The God Mind or something like that.  Am I correct?  That Energy is an Entity?

I think it all boils down to a misunderstanding of Time.  Time is a measurement of change relative to velocity and distance. Energy IS that change. Time isn't really a thing...it is a mental concept.  Energy likewise is not a 'thing'...it is a mental concept. 

Change is constant.  There is no static point anywhere in the Universe.  In other words there is no place where you can go in the Universe where the constant change of energy is void.  No starting place, no ending place.  The only static (no exchange of energy) points are one's we create in our heads and then apply to a Universe of Constant Change.  

You mention Taoism...which is a 'belief system'  nothing else. 

 

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1 hour ago, joc said:

Question:  What causes the rain to fall?  

Answer:  Gravity.

I think you are equating energy with Consciousness or The God Mind or something like that.  Am I correct?  That Energy is an Entity?

I think it all boils down to a misunderstanding of Time.  Time is a measurement of change relative to velocity and distance. Energy IS that change. Time isn't really a thing...it is a mental concept.  Energy likewise is not a 'thing'...it is a mental concept. 

Change is constant.  There is no static point anywhere in the Universe.  In other words there is no place where you can go in the Universe where the constant change of energy is void.  No starting place, no ending place.  The only static (no exchange of energy) points are one's we create in our heads and then apply to a Universe of Constant Change.  

You mention Taoism...which is a 'belief system'  nothing else. 

 

You diminish energy as if it where next to nothing. you think it just there and all by itself. no big deal to you. but your wrong it's more. Obviously you have not read paper I linked to by neuroscientist. he states energy is linked to mind and mind is linked to energy. because the brain generates its own EM field from energy and EM field is the physical substrate of consciousness. but we can't have functioning EM field mind without energy. it's our lifeforce. it's in every living thing until that living thing ceases to live.

Taoism simply states in primitive descriptive way what neuroscience already knows more in detail. that mind is energy (mind -EM field - is linked to energy) and energy is mind (energy- EM field- is linked mind). no belief system about that. just form of logic if both neuroscience and taoism generally say the same.

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1 hour ago, oldnatcole said:

You diminish energy as if it where next to nothing. you think it just there and all by itself. no big deal to you. but your wrong it's more. Obviously you have not read paper I linked to by neuroscientist. he states energy is linked to mind and mind is linked to energy. because the brain generates its own EM field from energy and EM field is the physical substrate of consciousness. but we can't have functioning EM field mind without energy. it's our lifeforce. it's in every living thing until that living thing ceases to live.

Taoism simply states in primitive descriptive way what neuroscience already knows more in detail. that mind is energy (mind -EM field - is linked to energy) and energy is mind (energy- EM field- is linked mind). no belief system about that. just form of logic if both neuroscience and taoism generally say the same.

You are misunderstanding my point.  I am not 'diminishing' energy.  Energy is all that there really is.  Energy is not mind, any more than energy is a rock in a field...matter consists of energy...as I said, there is nothing static.  Electrons move around a nucleus creating matter. 

Because the electrons are always moving, because the galaxies are always in motion, because the planets and the moons are all moving, because light from the stars is always moving, because motion is constant throughout the universe there is no static point.  And that movement, that constant change we call  energy. 

How you can separate energy in the blowing of a leaf across a frozen pond to only being the mind I am not understanding.  It's all energy. 

What you are trying to say is that energy is conscious.    You do not know that energy has a conscious mind or that energy is a conscious mind.  That is unknowable.  Therefore, it is a belief system, which btw oldnatcole, I am not putting down or saying that your belief system is this or that.  I am only drawing a comparison between what is actually known, and what isn't.    Your beliefs are relevant only to how you choose to live your individual life.  No beliefs are relevant to the truth, because the truth just  is... regardless of belief.

Our consciousness is created by a process eloquently  described by @psyche101.  I still think you are attempting to say (without actually saying it) that Energy is Consciousness.    Be good with that.  Love it. Live it. It is who you are.  But it is not The Truth.  Because the only things  that we can say are actually the truth are those things that are provable and evidenced.  

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4 minutes ago, joc said:

You are misunderstanding my point.  I am not 'diminishing' energy.  Energy is all that there really is.  Energy is not mind, any more than energy is a rock in a field...matter consists of energy...as I said, there is nothing static.  Electrons move around a nucleus creating matter. 

Because the electrons are always moving, because the galaxies are always in motion, because the planets and the moons are all moving, because light from the stars is always moving, because motion is constant throughout the universe there is no static point.  And that movement, that constant change we call  energy. 

How you can separate energy in the blowing of a leaf across a frozen pond to only being the mind I am not understanding.  It's all energy. 

What you are trying to say is that energy is conscious.    You do not know that energy has a conscious mind or that energy is a conscious mind.  That is unknowable.  Therefore, it is a belief system, which btw oldnatcole, I am not putting down or saying that your belief system is this or that.  I am only drawing a comparison between what is actually known, and what isn't.    Your beliefs are relevant only to how you choose to live your individual life.  No beliefs are relevant to the truth, because the truth just  is... regardless of belief.

Our consciousness is created by a process eloquently  described by @psyche101.  I still think you are attempting to say (without actually saying it) that Energy is Consciousness.    Be good with that.  Love it. Live it. It is who you are.  But it is not The Truth.  Because the only things  that we can say are actually the truth are those things that are provable and evidenced.  

First. i have no belief system. i trust science. i trust what neuroscience said.

Second. i repeat what neuroscientist said. brain generates its own EM field from energy and EM field is the physical substrate of consciousness.

Third. i didn't say energy only limited to mind.

And fourth. how do you have working body and mind without any energy? what powers the body and mind? in one example when you eat what does the body do with that food? it makes it into chemical energy. transfers it from matter to chemical energy. material food doesn't go directly to brain and power mind. how could it? no it has to be made into some type of energy or it does not work. its one of the many types of energies in body. 

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1 hour ago, oldnatcole said:

First. i have no belief system. i trust science. i trust what neuroscience said.

Second. i repeat what neuroscientist said. brain generates its own EM field from energy and EM field is the physical substrate of consciousness.

Third. i didn't say energy only limited to mind.

And fourth. how do you have working body and mind without any energy? what powers the body and mind? in one example when you eat what does the body do with that food? it makes it into chemical energy. transfers it from matter to chemical energy. material food doesn't go directly to brain and power mind. how could it? no it has to be made into some type of energy or it does not work. its one of the many types of energies in body. 

 Do you subscribe to this statement?

 In Taoism, the Tao is the source of everything and the ultimate principle underlying reality

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5 hours ago, oldnatcole said:

No. and Tao has different defintions to what it means. others are the way or the path.

Okay. I am still attempting to understand your thought process..one final question.

Do you think our consciousness continues after we die?

 

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On 9/11/2022 at 8:13 AM, joc said:

Energy likewise is not a 'thing'...it is a mental concept.

Hmm, I don't think that's quite right.  Stick a metal fork in an electrical outlet and you'll find pretty quickly that energy is definitely 'a thing'.

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22 hours ago, joc said:

You are misunderstanding my point.  I am not 'diminishing' energy.  Energy is all that there really is.  Energy is not mind, any more than energy is a rock in a field...matter consists of energy...

 I think we ,more or less, agree ..so,  because, Matter and Energy are interchangeable … a rock in a field IS energy/matter? 

     post #161  “I am wrong about a lot of things that I don't know.”    ..I believe your right, but..  How do you KNOW your wrong about things you don’t know?  ;)

Edited by lightly
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12 hours ago, lightly said:

 I think we ,more or less, agree ..so,  because, Matter and Energy are interchangeable … a rock in a field IS energy/matter? 

     post #161  “I am wrong about a lot of things that I don't know.”    ..I believe your right, but..  How do you KNOW your wrong about things you don’t know?  ;)

B)Keep up the good work!  ...and remember...it's always better to be a smartass than a dumbass!:P

:yes: I think about things I know nothing about.  And sometimes, what I think about something is wrong.  If we only think about things we already know, how do we ever learn anything.  But thinking is not believing.  Believing is when you convince yourself that what you think about things you don't know is the truth.

For instance, black panthers.  I always thought they existed.  I've known people who have said they have seen them.  Including my parents.  But...I was wrong...there are no black panthers.  I have always been concerned about being out in the woods, especially around dusk because I know that there are mountain lions in our area.  Far and few between, nonetheless, I'd rather be safe than sorry.  But what we know about Mountain Lions is considerably more relevant than what I thought I knew.  In reality; You stand a far better chance of drowning in your bathtub than being killed by a Mountain Lion...aka...a panther. 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Hmm, I don't think that's quite right.  Stick a metal fork in an electrical outlet and you'll find pretty quickly that energy is definitely 'a thing'.

Hmmm...

A fork is a thing...  Electricity is a thing... If I stick a fork in an electric outlet, the path of the electricity changed.

Which is what I said that energy is the measurement of the constant change of matter.  What is the difference between sticking my tongue to a nine volt battery and sticking a fork in an electrical socket?  What is the difference between blowing out a candle and hurricane force winds?  Things change...sometimes change is small and sometimes change is large...energy is change. No?  The electricity moves down the fork...with much more force than a nine volt battery.  So we say, a small amount of energy, or a large amount of energy is released.  Point to a rock.  Point to a cloud.  Point to energy?  

See...this is one of those things that I think about a lot...but I know virtually nothing about...so...yeah...I'm probably wrong.  :hmm: 

Edit:  I actually said energy is a mental concept.  Not a thing.  ...so...I think I'll go with that until you tell me what energy actually is. 

Edit 2:  energy, in physics, the capacity for doing work. It may exist in potential, kinetic, thermal, electrical, chemical, nuclear, .

Edit 3:  A mental concept no?

Edited by joc
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9 hours ago, joc said:

I actually said energy is a mental concept.  Not a thing.  ...so...I think I'll go with that until you tell me what energy actually is. 

Every word we use is a mental concept.  A 'rock' is just a mental concept we've applied to certain configurations of the material of the earth, 'clouds' are mental concepts that we've applied to certain configurations within the atmosphere, they exist as separate things to us just because we've decided to give them a name.  I'm not sure why that doesn't apply to energy, which you referred to as coming in small and large amounts and having different forces, which would seem to mean it is a thing.

I'm not an expert on science either, just not understanding where you are drawing the line on 'mental concept', and thinking about it it's not that simple for me either to draw that line.  Things like 'integrity' and 'beauty' I'd say are only mental concepts.  I can't point to momentum or velocity easily either, but they can also just be seen as changes in matter yet have very different effects in the world based on how much of either of those there is so I'm not sure why those are not also 'things'.  When you stick a fork in an outlet, isn't that dangerous because of the electrical energy that will flow through?  Mental concepts usually aren't physically dangerous on their own.  Is it because 'energy' is the wrong word for describing that, is it because we should instead refer to 'voltage' or 'wattage' maybe as what is actually dangerous?  Aren't these also just mental concepts?

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