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Moving Megalithic Stones-the Search for a Unified Theory


Thanos5150
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Posted (edited)

 

15 hours ago, kartikg said:

Maybe they employed elephants or whichever beast of burden was available to them to aid them in moving the stones. 

Probably not but they could have used animals to bring them from the quarry to the building site. There is not evidence to support this however.

2Ov8CM5.png

1Dt6y2A.jpg

Here are some motivated gentlemen moving a stone to be used for chief's tomb, using a sledge with rope and man power. You need a lot of guys and it would depend on the size of the ramp. They may have used ramps for the lower tiers(the ones that had parts of the ridge line structure included). The great thing about the pyramids is we don't have a lot of specific information on how they did it - except that they did! I suspect they used a number of methods as the pyramids rose up and ramps became to difficult to maintain.

These folks were doing so in 1915 AD

One can put down the how to ?

Cladking will dismiss and deny any idea that talks about how the pyramids were build unless it is HIS idea which is  that they were lifted using a magical funicular using an invisible CO2 geyser.......up a ramp that wasn't a ramp because he doesn't like ramps...If you want to have some entertainment ask him to show you all his 17 years of extensive images, engineering computations, computer simulations, hundreds of pages of calculations, research and data. He'll try to convince you doesn't have any of that but you just need to keep after him for him to post it.

 

 

Edited by Hanslune
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Cladking will dismiss and deny any idea that talks about how the pyramids were build unless it is HIS idea which is  that they were lifted using a magical funicular using an invisible CO2 geyser.......up a ramp that wasn't a ramp because he doesn't like ramps...If you want to have some entertainment ask him to show you all his 17 years of extensive images, engineering computations, computer simulations, hundreds of pages of calculations, research and data. He'll try to convince you doesn't have any of that but you just need to keep after him for him to post it.

Good grief Hanslune. Who cares what Cladking thinks about anything. Are you trying to ruin this thread on purpose? How about not and do us all of a favor and take your own advice for just once and ignore him. 

Edited by Thanos5150
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Posted (edited)
20 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


No, Abe I did not.
Abe, I can't watch every video that I am prompted to. Just don't have that kind of time.

Do you have time to read a book?

The guy wrote several books about Stonehenge and the Megalithic culture.

Edited to add:

I know reading a book takes a lot more time than watching a video.

But you can close the book any time you want, and continue reading another time.

I 'met' the guy during my many searches for anything 'Doggerland'. But because he tries to prove Doggerland was Plato's Atlantis, I never linked to him or quoted him.

Edited by Abramelin
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Posted (edited)
On 8/14/2022 at 9:32 PM, Hanslune said:

1Dt6y2A.jpg

[snip]

Another photo to put the block above in its proper context:

660px-COLLECTIE_TROPENMUSEUM_'Het_versle

From the size of the people and using a materials calculator this block weighs approximately 12-15 tons. And took roughly 400-600 or more people to move. Hard to see where the lines end they go so far. Granted the photo shows them dragging it up a slope so for flat terrain we can assume only half to a third of that would be required. Indonesian megalithic culture, which spans several islands, employed up to 1000 pullers for the largest blocks, like this one, and as much as a month to move from the quarry to the site depending on how far it had to travel.  For the smaller blocks around 50-100 pullers were required. 

Across the Neolithic world there are tens of thousands of blocks that were 12-15 tons or more. 20-50 tons. 100-300 tons. Some as much as 65ft feet long. Often moved miles from the quarry, some 50 miles or more, some by boat. How do we extrapolate this method to the 50-60 ton KC granite beams in G1 transported 500 miles and raised to a height of 135ft. Or the several 100 ton blocks of the Valley temple. The 400 ton block in the mortuary temple of Khafre. Or any of the several hundred if not thousands of other 10+ ton blocks used at Giza.

It's easy to look at these examples in the abstract and see villagers pulling a heavy stone, or a few minutes of the hours and hours to cut just a few mm into a granite block with sand and a copper saw, and say "see", as if all things were equal, but in reality they are not. Sledges and ropes are swell- tried and true methods which we know the Dynastic Egyptians and every other culture that moved heavy things used as well. Add in rollers and you're life gets exponentially easier. The rub is that when blocks get of a certain size/weight this method if used is no longer logistically possible without significant modifications and additions to the process we are not yet aware.  

 

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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It's a mindblowing to think how this heavy blocks were moved by the people without use of any machines and a technology.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

It's a mindblowing to think how this heavy blocks were moved by the people without use of any machines and a technology.

Yes it is in some ways. However, given the many locations this occurred and over the thousands of years the number moved was quite small especially in what I would call the Very Heavy Tier over 500 tons. I count just seven move in antiquity does anyone else have information counter to that? The Heavy tier has a lot more and I associate that with 499 to 300 tons.

Can anyone add any stones that have been missed in this wiki list?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_monoliths

Edited by Hanslune
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On 8/14/2022 at 2:48 PM, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


Stonehenge, a very impressive site itself, was built in 6 stages over a span of 1,500 years.

That is why the figure of 20 years for Khufu Pyramid just does not settle right for me. Just an opinion.

 I feel it's worth pointing out the 20 year time frame comes not from the Ancient Egyptians but Herodotus. There's a lot of work that's been done to put the pyramid construction within that time frame, but at the same time the archaeological record mainly supports only that construction started under Khufu and finished under Khafre. 

 Keep in mind according to Herodotus also Khufu was a wicked king who went so far as to pimp out his daughter in order to fund the construction of the Great Pyramid, so there's good reason to add a huge grain of salt to any of his statements.

 

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4 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

 I feel it's worth pointing out the 20 year time frame comes not from the Ancient Egyptians but Herodotus. There's a lot of work that's been done to put the pyramid construction within that time frame, but at the same time the archaeological record mainly supports only that construction started under Khufu and finished under Khafre. 

 Keep in mind according to Herodotus also Khufu was a wicked king who went so far as to pimp out his daughter in order to fund the construction of the Great Pyramid, so there's good reason to add a huge grain of salt to any of his statements.

 


Thanks, SS, I will keep that in mind.

From what I know of Herodotus, his histories have been confirmed by other means, so he is considered stable. 
I think, too, that a 20-year timeframe for construction of Khufu is the most widely held opinion. So, I go with it. Ciao

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4 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

 I feel it's worth pointing out the 20 year time frame comes not from the Ancient Egyptians but Herodotus. There's a lot of work that's been done to put the pyramid construction within that time frame, but at the same time the archaeological record mainly supports only that construction started under Khufu and finished under Khafre.

Do you mean Djedefre? If not, what is the evidence G1 was finished under Khafre? 

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56 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


Thanks, SS, I will keep that in mind.

From what I know of Herodotus, his histories have been confirmed by other means, so he is considered stable. 
I think, too, that a 20-year timeframe for construction of Khufu is the most widely held opinion. So, I go with it. Ciao

Its one of the current theories. We have only a limited amount of info on which to make time lines and estimates. Anything we can or could come up with will be guesses.

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Gravity was not always the same and with less gravity massive size stones were easy to manipulate. How else did dinosaurs walk the Earth?

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4 hours ago, Freez1 said:

Gravity was not always the same and with less gravity massive size stones were easy to manipulate. How else did dinosaurs walk the Earth?

 
Q: Has Earth always had the same gravity?
 
A: The whole mass of the Earth, mantle, crust, atmosphere and sea, contributes to the Earth's gravitational field, not just the core. Unless you want to split hairs, the Earth's gravity is the same now as it always was.1
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10 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

 I feel it's worth pointing out the 20 year time frame comes not from the Ancient Egyptians but Herodotus. There's a lot of work that's been done to put the pyramid construction within that time frame, but at the same time the archaeological record mainly supports only that construction started under Khufu and finished under Khafre. 

 Keep in mind according to Herodotus also Khufu was a wicked king who went so far as to pimp out his daughter in order to fund the construction of the Great Pyramid, so there's good reason to add a huge grain of salt to any of his statements.

 

I think Herodotus was just repeating what Egyptian priests had told him.

Possibly the AE tradition about Khufu's wickedness and cruelty was just a form of reaction to, or reflex of, the sheer size and scale of his pyramid ("he built a big tomb, he must have been a nasty man.")

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8 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:


Thanks, SS, I will keep that in mind.

From what I know of Herodotus, his histories have been confirmed by other means, so he is considered stable. 
I think, too, that a 20-year timeframe for construction of Khufu is the most widely held opinion. So, I go with it. Ciao

 It's accepted but it's from lack of other information.  He wrote what people told him at the time.  Makes it a collection of good and bad information especially for something that's well outside of the lifetime of the people he spoke to. 

 

8 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

Do you mean Djedefre? If not, what is the evidence G1 was finished under Khafre? 

I did mean Djedefre, shame to as I was just reading about his pyramid complex two days ago.  Some sort of memory glitch. 

2 hours ago, Windowpane said:

I think Herodotus was just repeating what Egyptian priests had told him.

Isn't there some reason to think he thought he was talking to priests when he was speaking to temole workers instead?  Haven't looked intk it that much. 

2 hours ago, Windowpane said:

Possibly the AE tradition about Khufu's wickedness and cruelty was just a form of reaction to, or reflex of, the sheer size and scale of his pyramid ("he built a big tomb, he must have been a nasty man.")

That'd be my guess also 

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1 hour ago, ShadowSot said:

...

Isn't there some reason to think he thought he was talking to priests when he was speaking to temole workers instead? 

...

Yes, possibly:

Quote

... the priests, whom he repeatedly mentions.  It has been doubted whether a casual stranger would have penetrated further than Egyptian vergers and tourist-guides ... [de Selincourt, Herodotus, 1954: 9].

 

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9 hours ago, Freez1 said:

Gravity was not always the same and with less gravity massive size stones were easy to manipulate. How else did dinosaurs walk the Earth?

Not lesser gravity more oxygen in the air. Today, Earth's atmosphere contains about 77% nitrogen, 21% oxygen, 1% water vapor, 0.9% argon, and 0.03% carbon dioxide, with traces of about a dozen other gases. The atmosphere of the Earth 80 million years ago was discovered to have 50% more oxygen than modern air. Brenner and Landis found that for all gas samples taken from amber (80 million years old) the oxygen content ranged between 25% to 35% and averaged about 30% oxygen. Cretaceous air was supercharged with oxygen.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, ShadowSot said:

 I did mean Djedefre, shame to as I was just reading about his pyramid complex two days ago.  Some sort of memory glitch.

I recommend a reboot. 

As to the rest of your comment: "...at the same time the archaeological record mainly supports only that construction started under Khufu..."

There is no archeology that supports this claim. It is an assumption based on the fact Khufu is associated with it. While this assumption may be true, it may also not be true in which G1 may have been started in some form or another before his reign as may have G2 and other structures at Giza. Giza was occupied since at least the 1st Dynasty including a 1st-3rd Dynasty cemetery with large 1st Dynasty serekh mastaba. There was a pre-Khufu cemetery, early 4th at best if not 3rd Dynasty, that would have been right where the G1 West Field is now that was demolished to make room for the "new" cemetery under Khufu. There is also evidence and/or Egyptological opinion some of the existing mastabas at Giza may date to the 3rd Dynasty if not earlier including some in the East Field.

To quote Petrie:

“It is a new view of Gizeh to see that it did not become occupied first by the Pyramid kings, but that it had a continuous history as a cemetery from the beginning of the 1st Dynasty". 

Don't have the time at the moment, but we can also question the actual length of time it took to complete these projects which may just as well have spanned multiple Dynasties ending sometime at the end of the 5th with 6th being involved as well. 

 

Edited by Thanos5150
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10 hours ago, Freez1 said:

Gravity was not always the same and with less gravity massive size stones were easy to manipulate. How else did dinosaurs walk the Earth?

Hollow and latticed bones and more oxygen.

Gravity had nothing to do with it.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Windowpane said:

I think Herodotus was just repeating what Egyptian priests had told him.

We don't need to wonder. Herodotus literally says Egyptian priests told him these things and routinely refers to "they" as the source when recounting this information. 

Quote

Possibly the AE tradition about Khufu's wickedness and cruelty was just a form of reaction to, or reflex of, the sheer size and scale of his pyramid ("he built a big tomb, he must have been a nasty man.")

But they were cool with Sneferu building three? Regardless, we can rely on Herodotus instead as he tells us:

"Cheops, who was the next king, brought the people to utter misery. For first he shut up all the temples, so that none could sacrifice there; and next, he compelled all the Egyptians to work for him, appointing some to drag stones from the quarries in the Arabian mountains to the Nile: and the stones being carried across the river in boats, others were charged to receive and drag them to the mountains called Libyan."

"...at his death he was succeeded by his brother Chephren, who bore himself in all respects like Cheops."

"Here then they reckon one hundred and six years, during which they say that there was nothing but evil for the Egyptians, and the temples were kept closed and not opened during all that time. These kings (i.e. Khufu and Khafre) the Egyptians by reason of their hatred of them are not very willing to name; nay, they even call the pyramids after the name of Philitis the shepherd, who at that time pastured flocks in those regions."

So, no. The real crime of both Khufu and Khafre is they closed the temples making people not able to sacrifice at them.  

Edited by Thanos5150
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12 hours ago, Freez1 said:

Gravity was not always the same and with less gravity massive size stones were easy to manipulate. How else did dinosaurs walk the Earth?

Hi Freez

Dinosaurs  had legs and blocks of stones don’t 

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2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Freez

Dinosaurs  had legs and blocks of stones don’t 

image.png.0a914daa92b8837ced09ef400eecbe13.png

Harte

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57 minutes ago, Harte said:

image.png.0a914daa92b8837ced09ef400eecbe13.png

Harte

Well not quite fitting BUT

frd3e5m.jpg

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On 8/8/2022 at 12:00 PM, Thanos5150 said:

Sorry friend. Not trying to be rude by not responding I am just not sure what you are trying to say. 

Im just suggesting that the stones of  Göbekli Tepe are not the frist temple but the frist temple was from spain . Gobekli Tepe

 

Posted August 7 (edited)

taula.jpg

spain :)

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19 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Its one of the current theories. We have only a limited amount of info on which to make time lines and estimates. Anything we can or could come up with will be guesses.

Well, I'd still be amazed if it was 50 years. 

Herodotus came about 2100 years after the fact. I wonder just how accurate he can be. But I would bet that with all evidence combined, a theoretical upper limit can be determined

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1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Well, I'd still be amazed if it was 50 years. 

Herodotus came about 2100 years after the fact. I wonder just how accurate he can be. But I would bet that with all evidence combined, a theoretical upper limit can be determined

Good question or perhaps the question should be how accurate were his Egyptian sources.

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