Peer review: a flawed process at the heart of science and journals

[XenoFish]

7 hours ago, joc said:

Dude...why are you screaming at me?  That's all I was pointing out ...that you were talking about Scientists not Science itself...geez my knees...

Sorry. Wasn't directed at you personally. I just get tired of repeating myself. 

[+joc]

2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Sorry. Wasn't directed at you personally. I just get tired of repeating myself. 

No worries.  I think we should all endeavor to never get tired of repeating our pov.  Not everyone reads every word we write.  Not everyone reads and get's our meaning the first time they read it... 

Sometimes in order to get our point across we need to repeat ourselves over and over and over.  Repeating ones self creates an aura of consistency and repeating ones self insures that more people get the point we are trying to make.  

[+joc]

7 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

COVID is reliably killing over 2 million people a year globally.  COVID has killed over a million US citizens.  The Civil War, the worst war in US history only killed 620,000 people. There are 10 new variants on the loose in China atm.  Science didn't lie, and the people who didn't want the vaccination are still dying because of misinformation.  Having put it in my pipe and smoked it, I think it is duck-weed, not tobacco.

And I am not really talking about Science either...I am talking about manipulation of scientific data to portray a narrative the government and media want portrayed.

the Narrative is what I'm talking about.  

Aside from that...we all have MUCHO to fear with pandemic type diseases.  Consider Monkey Pox for a moment.  It isn't an LGBTQ disease...  and it has the potential to become epidemic if not pandemic.  It isn't smallpox and it isn't deadly but it is devastating none the less.  And it can be acquired by anyone from simply touching another person that has it...or their towels or clothing...or...on and on.  When you consider that smallpox killed ...memory here, don't shoot me...400 million worldwide...a contagious disease is a contagious disease.  As such:

I am totally rethinking my entire pov regarding pandemic diseases.  We have so many people now all over the world from so many places that have all of these unique to us diseases...Africa, China, et al.   I am seriously thinking about putting on vinyl gloves 'before' walking into Home Depot, Walmart, etc.  Because if you have to go in the restroom of one of those places...good god...it is literally a melting pot of diseases you would never want to acquire.

[+OverSword]

15 hours ago, psyche101 said:

LOL, no, that annoying little thing called evidence which changes so much of that which you post. 

How?  The evidence in the papers can indicate something or not depending on how you choose to read it.  Just because one way of modifying a virus is less likely to be done in a lab doesn't make it unlikely or impossible. Until the world has access to records that likely no longer exist it can't be proved one way or another.  To me obviously China was in Cover Your Ass mode.  So what was there to cover up?  A naturally occurring virus from an animal at a market?  Laughable. 

[+OverSword]

13 hours ago, joc said:

Science lied and people died

I like that 

[+OverSword]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:59 AM, Emma_Acid said:

Give me a single example to the contrary?

Covid-19 could not have possibly escape from the lab in Wuhan.  99% of the scientific world said it with no proof for about a year just to be PC and as they were requested "stop hate, and racism".  Very scientific.

Edited August 8, 2022 by OverSword

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

How?  The evidence in the papers can indicate something or not depending on how you choose to read it. 

How one reads something also leads to misconceptions and conspiracy theories, as it has in this case. A virus either escaped orbit didn't. It's like being pregnant, a woman is or not. Speculation over wether the person is pregnant or not doesn't change the fact. 

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

Just because one way of modifying a virus is less likely to be done in a lab doesn't make it unlikely or impossible.

Not doesn't make it impossible. Lab peaks happen in all countries. It's not an impossible thing. 

Every one that has leaked has provided clear evidence of where and how. There's not even reason to suspect there was a lab leak in this instance. It's simply your opinion that Chinese are lazy lying dirty people. That's just wrong. 

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

Until the world has access to records that likely no longer exist it can't be proved one way or another. 

Until there's something pointing at a lab leak there's no good reason to consider the idea too. 

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

To me obviously China was in Cover Your Ass mode.  So what was there to cover up?  A naturally occurring virus from an animal at a market?  Laughable. 

No, not laughable, completely unevidenced and based on bigotry. That's what's wrong with the lab leak claim.

And the source of the lab leak idea. It's dodgy AF.

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, OverSword said:

Covid-19 could not have possibly escape from the lab in Wuhan.  99% of the scientific world said it with no proof for about a year just to be PC and as they were requested "stop hate, and racism".  Very scientific.

Isn't that what your lab leak hypothesis is based on? 

No proof just to be PC? How do you conclude that?

[+OverSword]

19 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Until there's something pointing at a lab leak there's no good reason to consider the idea too. 

8 hours ago, OverSword said:

  You don't think there is a good reason.  I do.

Edited August 8, 2022 by OverSword

[+OverSword]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

How do you conclude that?

I look at where the lab is and where the virus emerged from, combined it with a certainty that China is shoddy when it comes to QC and then read about the French rejection of participating in the the lab due to quality concerns and China not living up to the equipment standards and finally the kicker was whatever you say I will go the opposite.  Very scientific.

[psyche101]

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I look at where the lab is and where the virus emerged from,

Here's a map. Several kilometres apart. 

Where's that connection?

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

combined it with a certainty that China is shoddy when it comes to QC

Quality control is deemed to equal the standards of any bio lab in the region.

https://jlpm.amegroups.com/article/view/6417/html

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

and then read about the French rejection of participating in the the lab due to quality concerns and China not living up to the equipment standards

Really now?

0 per cent’ chance: former French official who oversaw safety standards at Wuhan lab dismisses leak theory

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

 and finally the kicker was whatever you say I will go the opposite. 

That I could believe. 

That's probably the only accurate and honest thing you posted in this thread. You're a hater and don't let anything distract you from that.

38 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Very scientific.

We know you fricken hate science. It's got stuff that you don't know about and it makes you look stupid regularly. It's your nemesis. 

[psyche101]

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The woman I’m dating isn’t Chinese either, but her parents both are. 

I suppose you won't be having dinner at her parents house given your grievances against Chinese scientists? I mean a kitchen isn't P4 standard and you consider that a substandard installation.

4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So @psyche101 in your estimation what chance is there that the virus escaped from a lab? Is it really zero percent? 

The evidence is non existent. 

Lab leaks happen in lots of countries as I said earlier. They get found because there a trail to the source of infection.

It's not an impossible situation. It could happen. There's just no good reason to consider that is the case in Wuhan. You have admitted that your idea is based on your opinion on Chinese failings. 

I see zero evidence to support a lab leak theory. That's what's important here. Evidence.

[+OverSword]

6 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I suppose you won't be having dinner at her parents house given your grievances against Chinese scientists? I mean a kitchen isn't P4 standard and you consider that a substandard installation.

The evidence is non existent. 

Lab leaks happen in lots of countries as I said earlier. They get found because there a trail to the source of infection.

It's not an impossible situation. It could happen. There's just no good reason to consider that is the case in Wuhan. You have admitted that your idea is based on your opinion on Chinese failings. 

I see zero evidence to support a lab leak theory. That's what's important here. Evidence.

That’s how I feel about the wet market theory. It’s not an impossible scenario bot there is zero evidence to support it unless you count researchers who are funded by China. 
 

And as far as my having dinner at her parents house, I’m not a racist, so there would be no issue for me. Be careful about accusing people of racism. It’s not nice and you don’t know me that well.

[psyche101]

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That’s how I feel about the wet market theory. It’s not an impossible scenario bot there is zero evidence to support it unless you count researchers who are funded by China. 

I'm good with the only foreign scientist there at the time who claims reports of sloppiness are complete nonsense. That's the most accurate report from an independent source there at the time. 

There is no real world information to contradict her skeptisism regarding the lab leak claim, or claims of substandard practises at the lab in question.

And they aren't around the corner from each other. 

And it appears to have originated with a journalists suspicion.

As I keep saying, there's just no good reason to consider the leak a viable hypothesis. 

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

And as far as my having dinner at her parents house, I’m not a racist, so there would be no issue for me. Be careful about accusing people of racism. It’s not nice and you don’t know me that well.

Are you going to explain to them what you did here? That you think the lab leak is due to poor quality control from lazy lying dirty Chinese people who only say what their government tells them to say? 

Perhaps they don't know you that well either? 

[+OverSword]

35 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Are you going to explain to them what you did here? That you think the lab leak is due to poor quality control from lazy lying dirty Chinese people who only say what their government tells them to say? 

Perhaps they don't know you that well either? 

The Chinese people are great. Their system of government is corrupt and they did everything to cover up a lab leak that they could including having that lab taken over by their military. My girlfriends parents are Chinese, from Taiwan and I’m sure they will agree with my assessment of the mainland’s system. Call me a racist or the Chinese people dirty again and I’ll report you. 

[psyche101]

36 minutes ago, OverSword said:

The Chinese people are great.

People are people. 

36 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Their system of government is corrupt and they did everything to cover up a lab leak that they could including having that lab taken over by their military.

Everybody is entitled to an opinion. Even one as flawed as that.

36 minutes ago, OverSword said:

My girlfriends parents are Chinese, from Taiwan and I’m sure they will agree with my assessment of the mainland’s system.

Not what I asked.

36 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Call me a racist or the Chinese people dirty again and I’ll report you. 

You used to term not me. If that s the impression you have, perhaps you should reread your posts. 

I didn't say the Chinese were dirty either, I actually protested that insinuation. That's what I get from your so called reasoning for a lab leak origin. In fact didn't another poster in another thread also support your remarks about poor quality control? What do you think that actually means? 

[Emma_Acid]

On 8/7/2022 at 3:03 PM, XenoFish said:

Guess you can't read. I said I don't trust scientist.

This makes no sense. Science is a huge area, with millions and millions of people having worked in it since it was developed as a process. And as I've pointed out, it's an independent process. There isn't some governing body that oversees it. You might as well say "I don't trust people who wear blue socks". It's a totally meaningless thing to say.

Quote

I'm fine with actual well intended science. 

No true Scotsmen eh?

[Emma_Acid]

 

On 8/8/2022 at 3:58 AM, joc said:

Real Science can become manipulated just by having certain people say certain things that aren't true.  

Then it isn't "real science", its propaganda; and actual, independent science will uncover the issue. I will say it again - there has never been a theory or model accepted in the scientific mainstream that was bought or funded fraudulently. 

[Emma_Acid]

On 8/8/2022 at 3:04 AM, joc said:

Science is real...scientists are real...politics are real and money is real...and when you mix science with politics and money you get things like a hyped up pandemic.  Science lied and people died.  Put that in your pointed little pipes and smoke it.

 

You're going to need to break this one down for me. In what way was the pandemic the result of "science mixing with politics and money"?

[+joc]

9 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

 

Then it isn't "real science", its propaganda; and actual, independent science will uncover the issue. I will say it again - there has never been a theory or model accepted in the scientific mainstream that was bought or funded fraudulently. 

Let me be a bit clearer.  Real Science is Science...it's real.  Propaganda is what the Media says about Science.  And I'm not talking about Scientific Mainstream...I'm talking about Media Mainstream.  CNN, ABC, et al.

9 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

You're going to need to break this one down for me. In what way was the pandemic the result of "science mixing with politics and money"?

Sure. The first thing is...The Media tells you what they want you to know and hear...and they don't tell you what they don't want you to know and here.  And The Media is politically biased in favor of the Democrats.  Which is why you always hear how 'bad' the Republicans are...it is a Media Narrative that Republicans are bad and Democrats are good.  That being said...the Media is very powerful and pulls a lot of sway in the world.  So the Political Machine conspires with the Media Propaganda Machine to create another Narrative about...The Pandemic. 

Enter Barrack Hussein Obama...  He kind of slid in under the guidance and desires of Ted Kennedy.  Why?  Ted picked him...hand picked him because Teddy believed he could get us to Single Payer.  Enter Trump...who dissed Obama and demanded he show a Birth Certificate after rumors of his 'authenticity' were being circulated by Right Wing Media Circuits.  So Obama already had a reason to dislike the Trumpster.   

Also Obama was a darling of the Media Propaganda Machine.   When Obama said we needed to prepare for a pandemic, he created a task force to do that.  Trump poo-pooed it...another reason for the Bamster not to like the Trumpster.  When it became clear that there would be no Third term for Obama...with the second term of Trump looming in the near future...something had to give.  So the Bampster conspired with the Dem Hanchos and the Media Propaganda Honchos...and the next thing you know there is a narrative about the Pandemic.  A story that changed daily.  When Trump said he wasn't going to be wearing a mask...bam...Media Narrative Creation Time....and it just went on from there...

 

 

[Emma_Acid]

11 hours ago, joc said:

So the Bampster conspired with the Dem Hanchos and the Media Propaganda Honchos...and the next thing you know there is a narrative about the Pandemic.  A story that changed daily. 

Sorry, what was the "narrative about the pandemic"? And yes, stories where complex systems are involved (like pandemics spreading through a population) do tend to change often. Not sure why that's such a mystery.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you trying to suggest that Obama convinced the media to make the pandemic out to be worse than it was?

[Golden Duck]

On 8/8/2022 at 10:25 PM, joc said:

No worries.  I think we should all endeavor to never get tired of repeating our pov.  Not everyone reads every word we write.  Not everyone reads and get's our meaning the first time they read it... 

Sometimes in order to get our point across we need to repeat ourselves over and over and over.  Repeating ones self creates an aura of consistency and repeating ones self insures that more people get the point we are trying to make.  

[+joc]

On 8/12/2022 at 5:26 AM, Emma_Acid said:

Sorry, what was the "narrative about the pandemic"? And yes, stories where complex systems are involved (like pandemics spreading through a population) do tend to change often. Not sure why that's such a mystery.

I don't really get what you're saying here. Are you trying to suggest that Obama convinced the media to make the pandemic out to be worse than it was?

I'm just saying that the entire Pandemic was something blown waaaaay out of proportion by the Media.  Millions and millions of deaths from this deadly virus.  I don't buy that Emma...where is the proof that millions died from the Covid virus?  Did every death have an autopsy where the virus was shown to have been responsible for their death?  It's like saying thousands die every year from running....because their heart gave out while running because they had a bad heart.  If you get sick when you are already in poor health...you might die...what is the mystery in that?  And...where is the Polio Morphed Virus that just makes you a little sore?

The entire pandemic is a media narrative.

[Emma_Acid]

3 hours ago, joc said:

I'm just saying that the entire Pandemic was something blown waaaaay out of proportion by the Media.  Millions and millions of deaths from this deadly virus.

People who quote numbers of deaths as if that is the be all and end all of a pandemic are wildly missing the point.

The problem with the pandemic was that it overloaded the healthcare systems. It is a demonstrable fact that there were more people on hospital ventilators than there were before the pandemic. This is why you needed to stay at home, wear a mask and be sensible and avoiding transmission. I don't get why after 3 years this still has to be explained to people. It feels like deliberate ignorance by this point.

3 hours ago, joc said:

The entire pandemic is a media narrative.

No it wasn't. The virus was very very real and there was a very real danger to health service infrastructure, and we do not know the long term effects of the virus. I personally know several good friends who have suffered life changing, long term complications after being ill with the virus. As with the healthcare issue, this seems to be something people are just pretending doesn't exist.

You still haven't explained what this has to do with mixing science and politics with "money". Our economies are not in any better shape post-pandemic. So what does this have to do with science being bought off by politics? 

This whole thing is just an aimless diatribe that makes zero sense.

[+joc]

2 hours ago, Emma_Acid said:

People who quote numbers of deaths as if that is the be all and end all of a pandemic are wildly missing the point.

The problem with the pandemic was that it overloaded the healthcare systems. It is a demonstrable fact that there were more people on hospital ventilators than there were before the pandemic. This is why you needed to stay at home, wear a mask and be sensible and avoiding transmission. I don't get why after 3 years this still has to be explained to people. It feels like deliberate ignorance by this point.

No it wasn't. The virus was very very real and there was a very real danger to health service infrastructure, and we do not know the long term effects of the virus. I personally know several good friends who have suffered life changing, long term complications after being ill with the virus. As with the healthcare issue, this seems to be something people are just pretending doesn't exist.

You still haven't explained what this has to do with mixing science and politics with "money". Our economies are not in any better shape post-pandemic. So what does this have to do with science being bought off by politics? 

This whole thing is just an aimless diatribe that makes zero sense.

The virus is very real.  So is Polio...but polio doesn't morph into something that only causes minor muscle cramps.  

And what happened to the Exponential aspect...what happened to all the 'doubling'?  I'm not saying that there was no virus that spread very fast...I'm saying that the politics of it is the politicizing of the mask...the politicizing of the vaccine.  Nor am I saying that no one died from Covid.  I had a customer who died.  I have a tenant that had pneumonia and is just now getting better.