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Is it God or distraction from self?


jmccr8
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1 hour ago, oslove said:

 

IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF

informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it

 

What is your concept of God?

Hi Oslove

You are in my thread now so things are different. There doesn't need to be a god the principal line of thought is does distraction from self motivate personal change like believing in a god construct.

Personally I understand that change of self is my motivation and at times if we are too wrapped up in just ourselves we inhibit growth and sluff off our part in changing our lives. God doesn't live with me so why would I give god credit for challenging and defeating myself when I stood alone and found a way to be what I desired to be. It was/is my work and garnered that fruit for myself. For some they need to create a greater need than just self to change even though it is the individual that makes the choice to change and does the work.

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3 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Well said. Same here, I try and minimize the “need’ to have meaning over and beyond the moment which is meaningful in itself full of surprise and wonder, some times challenging sometimes not just accepting my life as it is. I feel freedom also, free to meet up with life with open curiosity whatever that happens to mean in the context of experiences and go from there. Dropping the narratives and beliefs, preconceptions, views  ( only as needed in the moment ) and lots of unneeded baggage opened a lot of space for me… 

 

 

 

 

Hi Sherapy

 Well said and thanks for stepping up to share. There were a couple of really dark spots in my life that I had to walk through and a part of that was apathy from facing challenges alone and yet at some point I came back to I am worth it and kicked my life back into gear.. I share my life in different ways and one of them is to be not focused on just me as I have seen others who to me seem to have greater challenges to overcome than my own and aided in how I faced those challenges in my life. for which I am thankful.

There were times in my life that some may think damn that's fkd and walked away because my belief in myself was greater than the challenge presented. When at my worst in life I saw others and had empathy for them as well as a sense of relief that I did not have to deal with their choices on a personal level. That distance allowed me room for personal change and development.

Sometimes I think some people do not think they are not worth change and that is a self image I know I felt like that a couple of times during my life and because of that life had to work things out for myself. because I did not want to bring someone my challenges unsolved or unresolved. I really can't talk about some parts of my life because of the people involved in those parts of my life and knew that only I could bring me out of that life. There was no god to walk me out of there and think that my empathy for others worse of played a great part of my self  healing because I was distracted from my situation or myself something else like a focal point acted as an anchor/guide and was not exterior to myself.

To me if one does not focus on the me then change is possible, that is not to say the needs of oneself are unimportant just at times ego inflated

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5 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I suppose for some it does help. Believing a higher power has your best interest may give someone the emotional confidence that they need. At one point of my life I'd say that it is definitely true. However on a personal level it is more or less a gamble. 

Having climbed out of the abyss of soul crushing existential depression. I'll say (my personal opinion) it was several factors. Mostly patient individuals you helped me figure myself out and lend me their ears. Too the realization that change is never started externally, it always begins inward. So I learned that God doesn't help people, they have to help themselves. Even with all the support I had (on UM) it was up to me. Change your thoughts, change your subjective reality tunnel. Have good folks behind you.

hI xeon

It's not often i use the term bro but damn bro that was a great post and thanks for showing your evolution as I have witnessed the changes in your life.

PS you have always been one of my favorite posters and kudos to you for your desire for change. I have faith in people determined to be the best they can be and you are one of the few people I can express that faith in

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7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

some invoke god where chance is just as likely

Chance at an opportunity is the only method by which that which is beyond our universe is permitted to communicate in response to the desires of the entities in our universe.

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IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF

informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it

 

You use the word god, so you must have some idea of god, otherwise you are not referring to anything with using that word god - you see when you use the word god in the title of your thread, that means that you know what is god for readers of your thread, but I ask you, and you tell me you don't need any concept of god. 

"IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF" means you have an idea of god that others have, so there is a choice between god and distraction.

Next, "informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it," what part of self distraction god pays (plays) in it, so you have an idea of god, and it plays a part in your self-distraction,

So, tell me what is your concept of gpd.

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I'm sorry.  What is this "god" everyone is talking about?  Can someone who knows what god is please define what this means?  I can't see how we can discuss this meaningfully if we don't know what we mean.

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5 hours ago, oslove said:

 

IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF

informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it

 

What is your concept of God?

If you can not discuss the topic of this thread. Then you might need to find a different one. 

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  • The title was changed to Is it God or distraction from self?
7 hours ago, SHaYap said:

Some logic shawl a monk weaved for me... 

"There is no god, it is just god presence... 

It is not here, 

It is not there,

It is not future, 

It is not the past, 

It is not be but being... 

It is being in your mother's womb as your existence is now birthed into  this other womb of the outer side ... "

~

Or something like that... 

Translations into a language that has none of the similar definitions has its shortcomings... 

~

 

 

 

 

For having such a big vocabulary, English is soooo limited......which we discussed many times.

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2 hours ago, Piney said:

For having such a big vocabulary, English is soooo limited......which we discussed many times.

The language has evolved into little concrete cells of caste systems delineating one formulated status of the way of life from another but equally yoked under the system of state controlled of desirables and undesirables... 

When advanced intelligence is mostly superficial, the rudimentary words gets lost in the mix. 

That's why I've been going back to Mark Twain lately... Something reminded me of the :

"sound heart" over a deformed conscience" 

- from Adventures of Huck Finn 

~

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1 hour ago, SHaYap said:

The language has evolved into little concrete cells of caste systems delineating one formulated status of the way of life from another but equally yoked under the system of state controlled of desirables and undesirables... 

When advanced intelligence is mostly superficial, the rudimentary words gets lost in the mix. 

That's why I've been going back to Mark Twain lately... Something reminded me of the :

"sound heart" over a deformed consciences

- from Adventures of Huck Finn 

~

Love this.

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13 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Good thread, thanks.

I looked for evidence of that higher being, and had little luck, but still I remember it as a worthwhile journey.  I called out and was answered, most likely by my own convoluted brain, so whether divinely inspired or not, I found some comfort.  I found no being willing to take care of me, but capable parts of myself that can handle a lot of situations instead. 

 I found  a  strong sense of belonging as a unique individual and also as a human.  We belong here, good or ill is our choice, but we belong here.  Just like every hawk, oak tree, or amoeba, we evolved to fit this  universe, not the other way round. I don't believe the thing has any higher meaning,  other  than what  we assign to it. 

For me, gratitude helps a lot.  I do not thank a higher being so much as notice and  the world around me and take some delight in it.   Seems to fill the void for me.

Love this. 

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6 hours ago, oslove said:

IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF

informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it

 

You use the word god, so you must have some idea of god, otherwise you are not referring to anything with using that word god - you see when you use the word god in the title of your thread, that means that you know what is god for readers of your thread, but I ask you, and you tell me you don't need any concept of god. 

"IS IT GOD OR DISTRACTION FROM SELF" means you have an idea of god that others have, so there is a choice between god and distraction.

Next, "informal discussion about the distraction of self and what part god pays in it," what part of self distraction god pays (plays) in it, so you have an idea of god, and it plays a part in your self-distraction,

So, tell me what is your concept of gpd.

“the sponsor of this thread NEITHER ENDORSES OR supports any particular position” (Jay)


 

 

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Sherapy

 Well said and thanks for stepping up to share. There were a couple of really dark spots in my life that I had to walk through and a part of that was apathy from facing challenges alone and yet at some point I came back to I am worth it and kicked my life back into gear.. I share my life in different ways and one of them is to be not focused on just me as I have seen others who to me seem to have greater challenges to overcome than my own and aided in how I faced those challenges in my life. for which I am thankful.

There were times in my life that some may think damn that's fkd and walked away because my belief in myself was greater than the challenge presented. When at my worst in life I saw others and had empathy for them as well as a sense of relief that I did not have to deal with their choices on a personal level. That distance allowed me room for personal change and development.

Sometimes I think some people do not think they are not worth change and that is a self image I know I felt like that a couple of times during my life and because of that life had to work things out for myself. because I did not want to bring someone my challenges unsolved or unresolved. I really can't talk about some parts of my life because of the people involved in those parts of my life and knew that only I could bring me out of that life. There was no god to walk me out of there and think that my empathy for others worse of played a great part of my self  healing because I was distracted from my situation or myself something else like a focal point acted as an anchor/guide and was not exterior to myself.

To me if one does not focus on the me then change is possible, that is not to say the needs of oneself are unimportant just at times ego inflated

Well said Jay, in real time often what actually matters is getting back up again and again and this is something we do alone and it doesn’t matter how we do it just that one way or another a person will push on. I see this up front and personal in the work I do with those that are dealing with serious illnesses. It isn’t that it is easy to push on in the face of many of the health challenges yet, like you pointed out one looks deep inside themselves for the effort (this is the source). Probably the biggest misconception is that a person has to find a way to like things, or be happy about them, or grateful for their illness blah blah blah this is not true one doesn’t ever have to like anything or be happy about anything and yet will still push on to their personal best whatever that happens to be in the moment. 
 

‘For ex: with Parkinson’s ( a movement disorder due to lack of dopamine) when the medication wears off the person has an incredibly difficult time moving, such as walking, sitting up, holding their head up or even getting on their feet, now couple this with the urge to go to the bathroom and they cannot get their feet to move ( dopamine plays a huge role in movement ) and there is a lot of anguish, frustration, tears, crying out in despair, there is immense effort of trying to make a body move that feels like dragging a bag of rocks to move one foot at a time to get the body moving it takes incredible effort on the part of the patient. Yet, one doesn’t give up, they just give their best whatever this happens to be in-the moment and we adapt to this as caregivers. This will happen many times over the course of a shift. The patient isn’t happy about it, isn’t grateful to have Parkinson’s, isn’t delighted to be so dependent and dealing with a body they don’t like and at times the suffering is unbearable, yet they forge ahead. For me, observing these things in humans inspires gratitude, empathy and compassion for what a human being can withstand and cope with the best one can do is remove judgment that is often accompanied by saying the standard well meaning cruel things like “g?d only gives you more than you can handle,” or things can always be worse” these type of well meaning isms only add to one’s guilt and suffering and make people feel more isolated then they already do the facts are in life we all get things we don’t want or don’t think we can get through it is the human condition. There is no g?d necessary in these moments just sheer human will.

 

Edited by Sherapy
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I'm sorry.  What is this "god" everyone is talking about?  Can someone who knows what god is please define what this means?  I can't see how we can discuss this meaningfully if we don't know what we mean.

IMHO the thread is more about learning to navigate thru the darkness of our challenges, for some this may involve a g?d and for some it doesn’t and the sponsor of the thread is interested in how folks navigate through their humanity with or without a g?d. 

Edited by Sherapy
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10 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I'm sorry.  What is this "god" everyone is talking about?  Can someone who knows what god is please define what this means?  I can't see how we can discuss this meaningfully if we don't know what we mean.

 

"I can't see how we can discuss this meaningfully if we don't know what we mean." -Alch

 

Hi Alch, I am Oslove, that is a very good insight, congratulations.

Here is my concept of God:

"God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

What about you, do you have a concept of God, let me read your concept of God, okay?

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42 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you for sharing. I agree psychotherapy ( analyzing dreams) is an astounding way to deal with PTSD and trauma in general and as you say a way to take out the trash.. In my case, the Psychotherapy I did a years worth after my sister was murdered would prove to create an ego integrity that I didn’t have due to an abusive childhood. Years, later In MBSMT I was able to work through a lot of crap and heal in part due to the work I had done earlier in Psychotherapy. Some of us have more darkness then others, but reading posts as yours is inspiring for people like me who have walked a darker path it inspires me to keep getting back up. I am so happy that you found such a loving and supportive wife. I find having a compassionate partner is a great gift. 

I never found closer with my sister Sondra or her husband. I just don't think about them. When I do it's pure agony.

I try to help her worthless son who lives with our other sister. But you can't fix lazy or polish a turd. I stand back from helping her grandchildren though because their mother is a mooching hood rat who fakes illnesses to beg handouts.

My sister came out of remission fighting for custody of them. They were to be sent to Quaker schools and live at my farm and I feel guilt in not aiding them. But I want no garbage in my life which is 90% of the Black/Indian side of my family.

Actually over the past 5 years I've really grown to hate Indians in general. :hmm:

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I suppose each and everyone has to find their own anchor in life. A source of personal strength. Even a support system. Some find it in a church. Others in friends, etc. I guess if it's having a positive impact (aah!!!! It burns!!! The pain! The pain!) then that's what matters. 

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Though I do think once something that has a positive impact on a person's life becomes an obsession, it is best to move on. It becomes toxic. Which isn't good for anyone.

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

I suppose each and everyone has to find their own anchor in life. A source of personal strength. Even a support system. Some find it in a church. Others in friends, etc. I guess if it's having a positive impact (aah!!!! It burns!!! The pain! The pain!) then that's what matters. 

 

Thanks, Xeno, for your words of encouragement.

I find God to be a source of personal strength.

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Posted (edited)

In the vastness of the universe, I've wondered if god big G, just is way above our little planets pay grade. If there is some omnipotent being keeping track of us, it is very odd to think we deserve the head guys attention. I'm more of the mind we aren't even under the purview of middle management. Why would we be? All of our troubles and hurts happen on this planet, we don't hold sway over anything but ourselves. You've got to imagine out there in untold countless planets that there are much larger and more influential civilizations that god big G God would not only care about but choose to interact with. To quote Kate McKinnon I get the feeling we aren't dealing with the top brass and its hubristic to assume we should be. 

Edited by darkmoonlady
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, oslove said:

What about you, do you have a concept of God, let me read your concept of God, okay?

I think God is a very badly thought out idea that raises more questions than it answers. 

For example, here is a coin depicting the god Yahweh, before military defeat convinced the Jews that their God was now invisible and omnipresent.

Yahweh.jpg.152bbeed1417e38ccff6beb338939b2c.jpg

So, this is proof that the God of the Monotheists (Jews, Christians and Muslims) actually evolved from an earlier series of Pantheistic religions.  The idea of this God even has pantheistic origins in its other names such as "Elohim", which actually originates from a term meaning the "Sons of El".  El here refers to "El Elyon" was the Sun God of the Semitic Pantheon, and was the Father God.  Yahweh was in fact his bronze working son, and yet somehow this patron deity of the Jews was transformed into an almighty Demiurge, and worse, many people, ignorant of its origins simply accept the idea and say "there is no God but God and ...(insert your preferred prophet's name here)...  is his messenger". 

It is also worth pointing out that the first Monotheist deity of the Roman Empire was not the Christian God, but in fact El Elyon, as Emperor Elagabalus (despite being a hedonistic pervert without peer) was a high priest of El Elyon by his Syriac name Elagabal, and converted the entire empire to his worship.  While this mass conversion was relaxed after the murder of Elagabalus, the deity Sol Invictus remained as the Imperial protector based on those solar rites thereafter until the Christians took over.  So, in fact, Christianity, which pushes the worship of the lesser god Yahweh should in fact recognize the Solar Deity Elgabal/Sol Invictus as the One True God of their pantheon.  Here is an early Semitic depiction of Yahweh alongside his brother and the feminine deity Astaroth who is often considered a demon in Judaism for what amounts to purely sexist reasons:

 1697526893_YahwehAstaroth.jpg.ddbbd4c602ce722db9e11c0b7d4ed573.jpg

So this is an "idolatrous" image of the God of the Jews and Christians made centuries before there were any Christians and the whole concept of Judaism was entirely in its infancy.

Now when I compare this to the worship of the Hindu, Greek, Norse or other pantheons, I just don't find this idea of a single god at all compelling.  The world is too obviously the effort of a committee, not a single guiding genius, and the Universe is too big to take these pitiful tribal fetishes made in Man's image, seriously.  How can we talk about permanent and immortal gods, when most of these entities are no longer worshipped, and thus for all the pomp and ceremony are effectively dead?

And what even IS a god?  The way they are depicted they are not so very different from comic book superheroes, and honestly, why should we take any idea of any god more seriously than that?  

Now obviously there is another more philosophical and theological side to the idea of God as put forwards by the monotheists, but ultimately has anyone ever found any spiritual value in such dry and scholarly hair-splitting?  I have never found any argument for the existence of a single God or many gods to be even remotely plausible.  They are also often based on self-contradictory ideas and evidence. 

Now you say...

15 hours ago, oslove said:

Here is my concept of God:

"God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

Fair enough.  So by God, do you mean Yahweh?  If you meant Jehovah, that is really just another name for Jupiter/Zeus/Jove.  You speak of an un-made deity that existed before the universe we know, who then creates these transient things for unfathomable reasons, and apparently pilots human beings about like puppets (operator of man).  At least you recognize the futility of trying to argue that humanity has free will if such a deity exists.  But really, if such a deity exists, doesn't that render human existence utterly meaningless?  Even more meaningless than if such a horrifying and arbitrary sky monster didn't exist?  And let's face facts, there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that it does exist, so why superimpose a deity onto a picture of reality that is doing just fine without such an addition?

Edited by Alchopwn
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On 8/5/2022 at 8:26 PM, Tatetopa said:

Good thread, thanks.

I looked for evidence of that higher being, and had little luck, but still I remember it as a worthwhile journey.  I called out and was answered, most likely by my own convoluted brain, so whether divinely inspired or not, I found some comfort.  I found no being willing to take care of me, but capable parts of myself that can handle a lot of situations instead. 

 I found  a  strong sense of belonging as a unique individual and also as a human.  We belong here, good or ill is our choice, but we belong here.  Just like every hawk, oak tree, or amoeba, we evolved to fit this  universe, not the other way round. I don't believe the thing has any higher meaning,  other  than what  we assign to it. 

For me, gratitude helps a lot.  I do not thank a higher being so much as notice and  the world around me and take some delight in it.   Seems to fill the void for me.

Hi Tate

I am late getting back to the thread after I sobered up yesterday things got busy. Kind of one of those it was my day off kind of an day that really wasn’t a day off day. :DI enjoyed reading your post as it was easy to relate to for me on a personal level.:tu:

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:41 AM, Sherapy said:

“the sponsor of this thread NEITHER ENDORSES OR supports any particular position” (Jay)


 

 

Hi Sherapy

If Oslove shares how his construct of his god distracted him from himself during a difficult time in his life to a positive end that would be on topic and worth discussion.

Thanks as well as the intent of the thread is not about whether god’s exist The means of distraction from self is worth discussing though and if Oslove steps out of his shell he is more than welcome to participate.:tu:

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21 hours ago, oslove said:

 

"I can't see how we can discuss this meaningfully if we don't know what we mean." -Alch

 

Hi Alch, I am Oslove, that is a very good insight, congratulations.

Here is my concept of God:

"God is the permanent self-existent creator and operator of man and the universe and everything transient."

What about you, do you have a concept of God, let me read your concept of God, okay?

Hi Oslove

This thread is about people not whether god’s exist. What challenges have you had that you had to overcome?

There were times in my life when things got tough and in some of those times I would focus on something else to distract me from myself. Sometimes stepping in and helping someone that I thought was in a bad spot would take my mind off of me which in return relaxed my mind enough to be more objective about my situation and how to resolve it.

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11 hours ago, Alchopwn said:

I think God is a very badly thought out idea that raises more questions than it answers. 

For example, here is a coin depicting the god Yahweh, before military defeat convinced the Jews that their God was now invisible and omnipresent.

Yahweh.jpg.152bbeed1417e38ccff6beb338939b2c.jpg

So, this is proof that the God of the Monotheists (Jews, Christians and Muslims) actually evolved from an earlier series of Pantheistic religions.  The idea of this God even has pantheistic origins in its other names such as "Elohim", which actually originates from a term meaning the "Sons of El".  El here refers to "El Elyon" was the Sun God of the Semitic Pantheon, and was the Father God.  Yahweh was in fact his bronze working son, and yet somehow this patron deity of the Jews was transformed into an almighty Demiurge, and worse, many people, ignorant of its origins simply accept the idea and say "there is no God but God and ...(insert your preferred prophet's name here)...  is his messenger". 

It is also worth pointing out that the first Monotheist deity of the Roman Empire was not the Christian God, but in fact El Elyon, as Emperor Elagabalus (despite being a hedonistic pervert without peer) was a high priest of El Elyon by his Syriac name Elagabal, and converted the entire empire to his worship.  While this mass conversion was relaxed after the murder of Elagabalus, the deity Sol Invictus remained as the Imperial protector based on those solar rites thereafter until the Christians took over.  So, in fact, Christianity, which pushes the worship of the lesser god Yahweh should in fact recognize the Solar Deity Elgabal/Sol Invictus as the One True God of their pantheon.  Here is an early Semitic depiction of Yahweh alongside his brother and the feminine deity Astaroth who is often considered a demon in Judaism for what amounts to purely sexist reasons:

 1697526893_YahwehAstaroth.jpg.ddbbd4c602ce722db9e11c0b7d4ed573.jpg

So this is an "idolatrous" image of the God of the Jews and Christians made centuries before there were any Christians and the whole concept of Judaism was entirely in its infancy.

Now when I compare this to the worship of the Hindu, Greek, Norse or other pantheons, I just don't find this idea of a single god at all compelling.  The world is too obviously the effort of a committee, not a single guiding genius, and the Universe is too big to take these pitiful tribal fetishes made in Man's image, seriously.  How can we talk about permanent and immortal gods, when most of these entities are no longer worshipped, and thus for all the pomp and ceremony are effectively dead?

And what even IS a god?  The way they are depicted they are not so very different from comic book superheroes, and honestly, why should we take any idea of any god more seriously than that?  

Now obviously there is another more philosophical and theological side to the idea of God as put forwards by the monotheists, but ultimately has anyone ever found any spiritual value in such dry and scholarly hair-splitting?  I have never found any argument for the existence of a single God or many gods to be even remotely plausible.  They are also often based on self-contradictory ideas and evidence. 

Now you say...

Fair enough.  So by God, do you mean Yahweh?  If you meant Jehovah, that is really just another name for Jupiter/Zeus/Jove.  You speak of an un-made deity that existed before the universe we know, who then creates these transient things for unfathomable reasons, and apparently pilots human beings about like puppets (operator of man).  At least you recognize the futility of trying to argue that humanity has free will if such a deity exists.  But really, if such a deity exists, doesn't that render human existence utterly meaningless?  Even more meaningless than if such a horrifying and arbitrary sky monster didn't exist?  And let's face facts, there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that it does exist, so why superimpose a deity onto a picture of reality that is doing just fine without such an addition?

Very interesting add too, a quality read. Thank you :D

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