FBI Raids Donald Trump's House in Mar-a-Lago, Florida

[Golden Duck]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I think there's been plenty of precedent that intent is usually the deciding factor in these very public, high profile, cases.

Clinton, as an example, retained access to confidential materials years after she served as Secretary of State, but due to lack of intent to cause harm, any potential charges were dropped.

Dropped by the guy she accuses of screwing her out of the Presidency. 

Unless someone comes forward with evidence that Trump had a plan to sell/trade/use the documents for money, or for a nefarious end, it's super likely no actual charges will be filed. 

Especially after at least one major FBI official recently quit due to political bias on the Hunter laptop case. The FBI can not risk looking like a direct tool of the Democrat party, and so there will be little, or no punishment. 

This is likely why we're hearing more on Obstruction then about the documents themselves. IMHO, from what I read about the affidavit, obstruction was always just "a possibility", so putting that in the warrant was pure fishing-trip.

Again, I think little will come of it. I mean, if I was Trump, I'd just put them somewhere they won't look. Like on a yacht just offshore, or in a basement behind a picture on the wall. I can think of thousands of ways to hide them where they'd never be found. Given they were right there... in the boxes and his office desk... Either he (Trump) believed there was no issues, or he is too stupid to hide them effectively.

Myself, I feel he had a "Hoarder" like need to keep them. He probably has no idea what they actually are. They got packed up from HIS office, in HIS boxes, and brought to HIS house. They're HIS...

If you were Trump, you'd break the law, why?

There is no precedent for this.  Clinton isn't a precedent, because Comey wasn't a judge.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Golden Duck

[+Liquid Gardens]

13 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

The vast majority of conservatives did condemn the riots on January 6, including the actions of people such as Ashli Babbitt. The majority of progressives cheered the riots throughout the summer of 2020, and this included initiatives like Kamala Harris setting up fundraising campaigns to pay for the bail funds of the leftists arrested for engaging in riots. 

You are making the same mistake you always seem to make.  Simple question:  provide your estimate of how many American conservatives, and American progressives, exist.  Surely you have estimates for these since you are referring to 'majority', right?  I'll throw out that I believe that there are likely 10s of millions of people in both of those groups.  So, logically and I'm pretty sure statistically, you have zero clue what the 'majority' of either of these groups did since you have no information at all about how the vast majority of them feel about the 'riots'.  Seriously, how many 'conservatives' and 'progressives' have you even heard express a viewpoint on this?  I would wager less than a thousand at the high end... out of 10's of millions.  Is that a statistically significant sample:  'the people PA knows of'?

I don't understand why you don't see the issues with that, and what's worse I don't understand why you don't recognize that the way you talk about this stuff mirrors the way that 'the media' that you claim is so untrustful and propagandistic also discusses these things, which suggests that they're propaganda is working very well on your view of seemingly everything political.  Your Kamala Harris sentence above is pure Fox News newspeak, there's lots of information left out of your biased phrasing there, but regardless Harris and Lemon are two people out of millions.  When one acquires a view about a large group of people or reality itself based on a few examples they are falling for a classic propaganda tactic, I'm pretty sure you've mentioned this in your regular 'the media' attacks here.  Are all progressives just like Harris and Lemon?  Are you, a clear conservative, just like Donald Trump, or Pat Buchanan, or Jerry Falwell, etc, then using the same 'logic'?

[+Razman]

Gotta wonder why he has empty top secret folders , or what happened to the docs that were in there.

[+Liquid Gardens]

14 hours ago, Paranoid Android said:

The left-wing media glorified the BLM riots, and then the moment conservatives engaged in violence the entire media conglomerate of left-wing media companies all began shouting and screaming that this is the worst thing ever..... and now we are here in 2022 and nothing much has changed. 

Technically no, you are not 'here', you are 'there' in a different country.  Again I don't think all of your arguments are automatically invalid just because you are not an American, on plenty of topics you are getting your information the same place Americans are, usually online.  But when you make claims for instance about millions of Americans it does become questionable how much you can possibly accurately know without living here, that's a big chunk of missing data we here have and you don't.  It's especially impactful when your methodological approach is so far just 'winging it'.

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 hours ago, lightly said:

Seriously,  Video&Audio recording devices and instantaneous electronic communications, which is making everything become painfully obvious!,   Believe it or not …this is exactly the same America it’s always been.  The one that adopts and creates admirable ideas…and then goes about it’s real bu$$iness. .the one that’s always been about wealth and power… basically like most of the rest of the world!    

Honestly I don’t know how old you are but the America I grew up in can not be compared to the America of today. My comments had and have nothing to with technology or Capitalism they are based upon the personal values once held sacred and the political environment nationally and in those areas the changes are vast and very dramatic!

But, thanks fir your comments!

[Grim Reaper 6]

32 minutes ago, razman said:

Gotta wonder why he has empty top secret folders , or what happened to the docs that were in there.

That’s a very good question and it’s also one we most likely  will never know the answer to! However here is where my problems with the entire situation begins and it’s a subject that no one is even talking about. Recovering the original documents is a great and apparently it’s like everyone is themselves high fives for doing it. However even with the original documents recovered the one thing no one is talking about is the fact that it’s very possible he made copies and if so recovering the originals and not any copies made makes the entire recovery  totally a mute point. 

[+Paranoid Android]

3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

You are making the same mistake you always seem to make.  Simple question:  provide your estimate of how many American conservatives, and American progressives, exist.  Surely you have estimates for these since you are referring to 'majority', right?  I'll throw out that I believe that there are likely 10s of millions of people in both of those groups.  So, logically and I'm pretty sure statistically, you have zero clue what the 'majority' of either of these groups did since you have no information at all about how the vast majority of them feel about the 'riots'.  Seriously, how many 'conservatives' and 'progressives' have you even heard express a viewpoint on this?  I would wager less than a thousand at the high end... out of 10's of millions.  Is that a statistically significant sample:  'the people PA knows of'?

I don't understand why you don't see the issues with that, and what's worse I don't understand why you don't recognize that the way you talk about this stuff mirrors the way that 'the media' that you claim is so untrustful and propagandistic also discusses these things, which suggests that they're propaganda is working very well on your view of seemingly everything political.  Your Kamala Harris sentence above is pure Fox News newspeak, there's lots of information left out of your biased phrasing there, but regardless Harris and Lemon are two people out of millions.  When one acquires a view about a large group of people or reality itself based on a few examples they are falling for a classic propaganda tactic, I'm pretty sure you've mentioned this in your regular 'the media' attacks here.  Are all progressives just like Harris and Lemon?  Are you, a clear conservative, just like Donald Trump, or Pat Buchanan, or Jerry Falwell, etc, then using the same 'logic'?

Maybe you're right.  I've not met every progressive in America,  let alone every progressive on the planet. Though I have met plenty of them on online spaces such as this one.  And on sites ike this I am consistently confronted with people who are espousing exactly these beliefs. Not as a fringe belief among the more extreme members,  but a mainstream attitude held by most.

Which means,  again maybe you are right.  But if you are right,  then why do online forums attract the extreme leftists who support the worst activities of the left and its media puppets? You don't need to answer,  it's a rhetorical question.  I've had conversations with moderate progressives here on UM who have tried to justify the actions of Harris and Cuomo mentioned before. Heck, Kamala is the VP, obviously her BLM bail fund must have been popular enough for Biden to choose her as VP, or at least not so unpopular that it would disqualify her from the role. Did you denounce the bail fund in 2020 when she was fundraising? How many of the 81 million who voted for Biden/Harris condemned the BLM bail fund? How many celebrated the bail fund? 

Long story short,  if you are right then there must be an explanation as to why online spaces are always dominated by progressives who support these things but by your argument,  the average democrat in the street is actually as appalled as I am in real life.   but as I don't live in America I just haven't seen the "real reaction" to it!

Can you see how I would find your reasoning difficult to accept?

Edited September 3, 2022 by Paranoid Android

[lightly]

2 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Honestly I don’t know how old you are but the America I grew up in can not be compared to the America of today. My comments had and have nothing to with technology or Capitalism they are based upon the personal values once held sacred and the political environment nationally and in those areas the changes are vast and very dramatic!

But, thanks fir your comments!

I’m 70.  ..so I do understand what you mean.  I suppose there was more unity among most of ‘us’.   I guess I’m trying to say that the instantaneous electronic familiarity with ourselves is having an extremely devisive impact on us. The old saying that familiarity breeds contempt is true.  Our views used to be shaped by our families and communities, and books and newspapers, and then radio and television were added to the sources,,  but now it’s a constant bombardment from everywhere ..from major sources to every Tom ,Dick, Harry, and lightly!    And I still think the underlying capitalistic forces which shape our policies are as powerful as ever.     As conspiratorially crazy as this might sound ..I think the Alamo was allowed to happen..as was Pearl Harbor…as was the falling of the twin towers!  In each case, to garner enough public support to enable what happened next. !   ..and all for the same rea$on$.  The slaughtering off of the buffalo, and the natives, and the building of the railroads, were purely economic policies.   Sadly, the history of the world is ,primarily, an economic story. 

[+Paranoid Android]

8 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Excessive prosecuttion?  That's an interesting new term.  

Let's see:

1) 10 years for this guy NYPD veteran given 10 years in longest Jan. 6 sentence yet (msn.com)

2) 7 years Texas man gets more than 7 years for role in January 6 riot | Fox News   

3) 5yrs 3 months Robert Scott Palmer Sentenced to 63 Months for Jan. 6 Attack (lawandcrime.com)

4) almost 4 years Pennsylvania Man Sentenced to 46 Months in Prison for Assaulting Officer During Jan. 6 Capitol Breach | USAO-DC | Department of Justice

Eh, there is a whole bunch at 4 years sentenced so I'll stop.  None of these are the big sedition cases yet either.

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/29/report-reveals-shocking-double-standards-for-bringing-u-s-rioters-to-justice/

Yes,  excessive! 

[Golden Duck]

42 minutes ago, Paranoid Android said:

https://thefederalist.com/2021/07/29/report-reveals-shocking-double-standards-for-bringing-u-s-rioters-to-justice/

Yes,  excessive! 

Different offences from different jurisdictions. 

[+DieChecker]

6 hours ago, Golden Duck said:

If you were Trump, you'd break the law, why?

There is no precedent for this.  Clinton isn't a precedent, because Comey wasn't a judge.

Semantics. You're arguing because a fine detail exists, the law doesn't apply the same.

Comey was FBI, and those bringing any charges on Trump would be the FBI. 

According to the Left, that Trump was President shouldn't matter, so the parallel with Clinton would then be appropriate.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, lightly said:

I’m 70.  ..so I do understand what you mean.  I suppose there was more unity among most of ‘us’.   I guess I’m trying to say that the instantaneous electronic familiarity with ourselves is having an extremely devisive impact on us. The old saying that familiarity breeds contempt is true.  Our views used to be shaped by our families and communities, and books and newspapers, and then radio and television were added to the sources,,  but now it’s a constant bombardment from everywhere ..from major sources to every Tom ,Dick, Harry, and lightly!    And I still think the underlying capitalistic forces which shape our policies are as powerful as ever.     As conspiratorially crazy as this might sound ..I think the Alamo was allowed to happen..as was Pearl Harbor…as was the falling of the twin towers!  In each case, to garner enough public support to enable what happened next. !   ..and all for the same rea$on$.  The slaughtering off of the buffalo, and the natives, and the building of the railroads, were purely economic policies.   Sadly, the history of the world is ,primarily, an economic story. 

Thank you very much for kind response. As far as the electronic familiarity is concern I do agree with you, if a large Electromagnetic Pulse devise was detonated and all forms of electron devises suddenly ceased to operate that area of the World would suffer societal calamity I can't even begin to imagine! Today everyone of plugged and turned on. If all electronic devices sudden stopped everything would collapse into Anachrony the likes of which have never occurred before and that bombardment you speak of would be replaced with all the sounds of war.

As far as your ideas of major conspiracies of the past I do agree with you at least concerning Pearl Harbor. In the 1930s a mock attack on Pearl Harbor was successful carried out as a test of the Islands defenses. The attack, named Fleet Problem Number 13, was commanded by Rear Admiral Harry Yarnell, and was meant to simulate an attack from a “militaristic, Asian, island nation” on the major military installation. With two Aircraft Carriers Admiral Yarnell successfully attacked Pearl Harbor. The thing no could have predicted though is that December 7th when the Japanese attacked that the two attacks would actually mirror each each other. No I don't believe in the Supernatural that is one hell of a coincidence.

As far the Alamo, I am a bit embarrassed to say it but, my knowledge of that historic battle is pretty weak! Now the World Trade Center attack, I was still on active duty in the Military. I remember that morning vividly. I had just arrived at work at I-Corps Headquarters at Ft. Lewis, Washington and everyone was in the basement in our classified operations center! I entered the C-TOC, and was surprised to find tactical operations procedures in full swing. I received my briefing and I was informed that a commercial passenger jet had been crashed into one of the towers of the Worldtrade Center. Then within it seemed like minutes the Second Tower was hit. With less than 15 minutes after the second plan hit, our operations center was fully operational and connected to every major organization across the Nation including the Pentagon!

The way the proceed from that moment we were on a full combat footing until months later when the invasion of Afghanistan was completed. So to be honest, that difficult for me to comprehend but I also realize that anything is possible so even though I don't believe it happened I also am unable to dismiss it and discoun it so I must put a ? there. 

Take Care Lightly!

[Golden Duck]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Semantics. You're arguing because a fine detail exists, the law doesn't apply the same.

Comey was FBI, and those bringing any charges on Trump would be the FBI. 

According to the Left, that Trump was President shouldn't matter, so the parallel with Clinton would then be appropriate.

Semantics are actually important, because the meaning of words, in this forum, is important.

If the FBI charges Trump, previous decisions will have zero bearing before a judge. 

If you're advocating that the public should again demonstrate, threaten to riot and conduct a trial by media is it because you're giving precedence to security of Trump above all else.  But, then again you already condoned breaking the law if you we're Trump.

[Tiggs]

2 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Semantics. You're arguing because a fine detail exists, the law doesn't apply the same.

Those two FBI investigations involve literally different laws.

Shoplifting and armed robbery are both technically theft, but they're treated very differently under the law.

[Tatetopa]

4 hours ago, lightly said:

.I think the Alamo was allowed to happen.

How about if I trade you the Alamo for the Battleship Maine sunk in Havana harbor to start the Spanish American War, or the Mayaguez. near Cambodia.  Back in the 60's we had to study Texas History in high school.  Still remember good old Mrs. Martin.  It seems like we went through every action and battle in the war. The generals running the war for Texas were not superb and because they were hard pressed by a couple of larger armies they sent no reinforcements nor order evacuation.  They were stuck.   These were the locals fighting their own fight.  The US didn't invite Texas in until a few years later.

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

According to the Left, that Trump was President shouldn't matter, so the parallel with Clinton would then be appropriate.

I think according to the current administration, the former president was accorded great deference.  For a year and a half they played please sir please trying to get the documents back.  Had they been retrieved, the issue would have been let go I believe.  What happened though was evidence through witnesses and security camera footage that the documents were not safe and secure  as promised.  The sense of urgency and danger  of uncontrolled exposure of these documents must had knotted some undies.  They got the warrant and retrieved the documents. It became obvious that they had been lied to. The threat assessment is being done.  What comes next I wonder, but Donald Trump has continued to make this a power play between the administration and himself. He is defiant and apparently at his rally called Biden an enemy of the state.  That really sounds like the beginning of a hostile takeover bid

[pallidin]

And, I think some would not like me to directly attack him. I'm crazy, and I frigging hate him.

Bring it on...

[pallidin]

So, if the Courts decide in favor of Trump it's a win. If not, it's a "witch-hunt"

Trump thinks he can't lose with his perpetual witch-hunt strategy defense!!!

Wow.

[Grim Reaper 6]

2 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

I think according to the current administration, the former president was accorded great deference.  For a year and a half they played please sir please trying to get the documents back.  Had they been retrieved, the issue would have been let go I believe.  What happened though was evidence through witnesses and security camera footage that the documents were not safe and secure  as promised. The sense of urgency and danger  of uncontrolled exposure of these documents must had knotted some undies.  They got the warrant and retrieved the documents. It became obvious that they had been lied to. The threat assessment is being done.  What comes next I wonder, but Donald Trump has continued to make this a power play between the administration and himself. He is defiant and apparently at his rally called Biden an enemy of the state.  That really sounds like the beginning of a hostile takeover bid

Hey Tate, the reason this became an issue is two fold!

1. Most likely during an inventory NARA discovered that known Presidential documents were found to be missing from there inventories. If I had to guess the Kim Jong Un love letters between Kim and Trump are certainly high profile documents that would certainly be missed. Well guess what Donald took the Kim Jong Un love letters were some of the documents NARA discovered were missing and of course Trump claimed they were his to my knowledge that what actually started the entire incident!

2. NARA sends a formal request to Trump outlining the fact there are missing documents and asking Trump to return them. Well after negotiations he apparently returns approximately 15 boxes of miscellaneous documents some were requested others were unexpected and then SURPRISE SURPRISE NARA also found Confidential, Secret, TS, and TS-SCI documents which surprised the officials at the National Archives.

3. Then because of the discover classified documents by NARA, the White House SCIF is notified where it is discovered a large number of Classified documents had been signed out prior to Trumps departure from White House. Then after repeated requests for the return of the documents and major concerns over how the documents are being stored and where the documents are being stored. Finally the DOJ is notified and the warrant is issue.

You know Tate at some point the current Government Must defang Trump his threats, fear mongering and the manner in which he uses right wing members of his base must be stopped. Don’t know how this will happen or when it will happen but sooner or later it will happen. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

4 hours ago, pallidin said:

And, I think some would not like me to directly attack him. I'm crazy, and I frigging hate him.

Bring it on...

I ate a Live Scorpion one time in the Middle East, people said I was crazy too but that can be a benefit as well as a curse depends upon how you play it!

[+Razman]

3 hours ago, Grim Reaper 6 said:

Hey Tate, the reason this became an issue is two fold!

1. Most likely during an inventory NARA discovered that known Presidential documents were found to be missing from there inventories. If I had to guess the Kim Jong Un love letters between Kim and Trump are certainly high profile documents that would certainly be missed. Well guess what Donald took the Kim Jong Un love letters were some of the documents NARA discovered were missing and of course Trump claimed they were his to my knowledge that what actually started the entire incident!

2. NARA sends a formal request to Trump outlining the fact there are missing documents and asking Trump to return them. Well after negotiations he apparently returns approximately 15 boxes of miscellaneous documents some were requested others were unexpected and then SURPRISE SURPRISE NARA also found Confidential, Secret, TS, and TS-SCI documents which surprised the officials at the National Archives.

3. Then because of the discover classified documents by NARA, the White House SCIF is notified where it is discovered a large number of Classified documents had been signed out prior to Trumps departure from White House. Then after repeated requests for the return of the documents and major concerns over how the documents are being stored and where the documents are being stored. Finally the DOJ is notified and the warrant is issue.

You know Tate at some point the current Government Must defang Trump his threats, fear mongering and the manner in which he uses right wing members of his base must be stopped. Don’t know how this will happen or when it will happen but sooner or later it will happen. 

I imagine if his armed right wing people get to be too much of an issue , the military would get involved eventually.

[jmccr8]

20 hours ago, razman said:

Gotta wonder why he has empty top secret folders , or what happened to the docs that were in there.

Hi Razman

Seem to remember it being posted that he tore up or destroyed some documents.

[+DieChecker]

14 hours ago, Tiggs said:

Those two FBI investigations involve literally different laws.

Shoplifting and armed robbery are both technically theft, but they're treated very differently under the law.

I wish when people said such things they'd say, here let me post that this is true.

Are not both about Retention of confidential records?

If you're talking obstruction, yeah, I agree, Trump tried to hide things while Clinton was simply stupid.

[Trelane]

On 9/1/2022 at 5:33 PM, RavenHawk said:

The reason is because there are more important things than answer a stupid question, one that I have already stated or at least implied.  But for the slow ones among us, I’ll answer for your sake.  It’s a residence.  It’s offices.  It’s a club.  It’s also a floor wax and dessert topping.

 

Gee, what gave it away?  Trump is just a man.  A good man and this country needs him right now.  Just a few more years and then he can retire and let DeSantis take over.

 

When I see someone who has basically given up everything to improve this nation and be relentlessly attacked and disparaged because he threatens the power base of Authoritarians, then he is someone that needs to be defended.  Not to defend him would be to surrender the nation to Marxism.

 

Or it could be that you are so brainwashed (Mass Formation), that anything that threatens your worldview is incomprehensible.

 

Ok thanks for finally responding. You took the long way around and everything else in you post is just unnecessary exposition.

I'm not brainwashed. No bumper stickers or nifty little ribbons of different colors. No "pro this" or "anti that" signs on my lawn. Of course definitely not any ridiculous hats that alluded something wasn't already great.

Back to why I asked about it being categorized as a residence. It's how the address itself is listed that would be how the FBI's warrant was able to encompass the entire estate.

I totally agree with you that there are more important things at hand. Like if a former president was in possession of highly sensitive and classified documents without proper authorization or obtaining declassification rights. It's a potentially dark rabbit hole if the allegations are true.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Trelane

[lightly]

23 hours ago, razman said:

Gotta wonder why he has empty top secret folders , or what happened to the docs that were in there.