My 2nd Mandela Effect experience

[+Liquid Gardens]

I've jousted with @papageorge1several times here on the subject of the Mandela Effect and I definitely take a very skeptical approach as far as the explanations for them.  Last night I had the second 'Mandela Effect' ever (my first was Berenstain Bears) and since I have almost no 'Unexplained Mysteries'-type experiences to ever talk about I thought I'd post about it and my analysis while it is still pretty fresh.

The ME is very esoteric I think, it concerns a scene in the James Bond movie Moonraker with the villain Jaws and a love interest he finds in this movie, Dolly.  The first 30 seconds of this video (I have not watched the rest of it), shows the scene:

I 'remember' Dolly having braces in this scene, and finding out she didn't last night triggered a Mandela Effect, a stronger one than my previous Berenstain Bears ME.  It's tough to perfectly define an ME and I've always focused on the commonality of the false memory as being an essential component which it is, but now I'm thinking more about the 'feeling' aspect.  The most important point that differentiated this from a more run-of-the-mill false memory I may have and shrug about is how it felt, It felt like something was wrong or had changed, presumably linked to a feeling about how certain I felt about the accuracy of this memory.  It even had me pondering if this wasn't a false memory what kind of UM-type scenario would explain it.  Last night I tried to analyze it as closely as I could since I was already familiar with MEs so tried to get as much insight as possible while I was in the act of experiencing it.

• Skeptical note number 1 of a billion:  like we have discussed before as a possible pollutant to what may otherwise be regarded as just false memories, this occurred within the context of me reading an article about the Mandela Effect on boingboing, I believe it concerned a study on visual MEs that papa had linked to earlier.  In the comments someone mentioned at the end of a skeptical comment, "But I know I thought it was nice Jaws found someone like him when Dolly smiled and revealed a mouth full of braces in Moonraker."  It took me a bit to parse and understand that and 'remember' it and my first response was 'no way...' because of how certain I felt in that moment that Dolly had braces.  I looked it up and found out she didn't, and had that 'feeling' that something weird was up.

• Even if you are not familiar with the movie, if you are semi-familiar with the character of Jaws (imposing giant nemesis of James Bond (sometimes) with a metal grill for teeth), the scene would work so perfectly if she revealed braces on her teeth, and since it's such a point of connection between the two from an ME perspective to remove that connection removes a major part of the point of the scene, and I think enhances the ME.  It seems like the build-up to her smile is priming you for a surprise but I'm not sure that this expectation isn't something more recent, I think this being the 70s the surprise was only that she liked him, almost a la Beauty and the Beast.
• Unlike some MEs where you have the possibility of misspellings or knock-off products that fulfill the ME (cornucopias, Beren'stein'), there is no question of there being another version of this with braces, the actress who played Dolly said there never were any it was not even discussed I believe.
• One of the more interesting explanations for what goes on sometimes from a psychological standpoint are schemas we create in our mind.  Dolly with her glasses and pigtails, at least in the late 70s when the movie came out, kinda fit the 'nerd girl' stereotype, and obviously in that schema braces would fit well.  Actually a less common ME concerning this scene is that she was less sexualized, I also didn't remember her, ahh, let's just say ample cleavage, and that also fits in with the 'nerd girl' stereotype that may be affecting the memory.

When I was trying to analyze the 'feeling of certainty' part of the ME it had me wondering about something else I have always pondered, namely the extent to which feelings produce thoughts.  In my only other UM-ish experience, sleep paralysis, my first experience with it had thought content that came with the paralysis, there were burglars or something evil/dangerous in the house while I couldn't move, and others commonly reference demons sitting on their chest or aliens.  Nowadays when I have sleep paralysis, knowing the very logical explanation for it, that feeling of an invading evil is gone.  I think something similar is happening with MEs, there is something about them that produces a feeling that something is extra off. 

But the more I think about it, the more I don't think the feeling has anything to do with reality.  Ultimately I think it comes down to my brain getting confused about how well it remembers something, most people have already had a weird memory-based feeling with deja-vu and this seemed related.  I haven't really thought much about the kinda common phrase, 'I feel certain', and what certainty is. The strongest skeptical points against something UM with this are that it meets so many conditions under which you'd expect to have a false memory.  Last time I recall seeing Moonraker was when I was a kid seeing it at the theater when it came out, possibly twice.  Ask me two days ago what I can remember about the film it would be Roger Moore, Jaws, a space shuttle getting stolen off the back of a 747 I think in the beginning, that it is a kinda dumb goofy movie, and that's it.  I 'remember' Dolly now only because this ME was brought to my attention, and I have a vague memory of this scene but still cannot remember any others. 

There are some things though that make me go hmmm.  So what happened?  I couldn't really tell as it was happening, I was trying to get a handle on if this memory had just been created when I read about it last night but that's impossible to do when all you have is a possibly false memory to go on.  I know psychologists say that memory is altered every time you access it, but this is the opposite where it was a memory sitting dormant since potentially 1979 un-accessed, which I think is even more suspect. What I more strongly have is the feeling that I've seen this particular 'plot gimmick' or whatever it's called before, in a similar scene where two people connect when I think a girl reveals that she has braces or whatever thing too that the guy is self-conscious about.  I watched a crap-ton of tv it seems when I was a kid, I'm holding out that there is a similar scene that I'm crossing this with.  If though there really isn't any good precedent for this scene (I guess antecedent would work too), it is weird to then think that this obviously good idea that thematically produces more of a connection between the characters in a clever way, a genuinely creative idea that would work so well, that the creative origin for it is an ME?

Edited August 10, 2022 by Liquid Gardens

[zep73]

54 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I 'remember' Dolly having braces in this scene

That's odd. Are you sure she doesn't have braces? Are you pulling my leg?

I not only remember the braces clear as day, I also remember my thoughts when I saw the scene. I thought: "Aww, how cute, they're a perfect match, both with mouth gear!"
It's what made the scene so funny and memorable!

You're pulling my leg, right?

[+Liquid Gardens]

5 minutes ago, zep73 said:

That's odd. Are you sure she doesn't have braces? Are you pulling my leg?

I not only remember the braces clear as day, I also remember my thoughts when I saw the scene. I thought: "Aww, how cute, they're a perfect match, both with mouth gear!"
It's what made the scene so funny and memorable!

You're pulling my leg, right?

That's what I thought too, weird one.  I think I've heard that for some reason it is supposed to be a 'strong' ME but not sure how they rank those, was pretty strong to me.  Let me know if it's a hoax or something, can't find anything that verifies that there ever were braces, there are some altered videos with her with braces but they seem to all say they are altered.

[the13bats]

You guys are gonna win warn fuzzy cool points with papa but me i guess i actually have odd brain wiring perhaps related to my OCD and mental issues of a nervious panic nature.

I loved the cheesy Moore bond flicks and the Jaws character and from the first time i saw moonraker at a theater to the last time on an old vhs i always thought how badly they missed a great gag by not having braces on dolly.

To add to this and what might explain some confusion is dolly should have been wearing braces and the fact more people really didnt study her smile they very well might have assumed due to film grain etc that she did have braces.

I believe had the term "mandella effect" not been cooked up by a person trying to sell it as paranormal and make profit on nothing more than faulty memories

[zep73]

12 minutes ago, the13bats said:

You guys are gonna win warn fuzzy cool points with papa

Just to be clear. I know I remember it wrong 

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I've jousted with @papageorge1several times here on the subject of the Mandela Effect and I definitely take a very skeptical approach as far as the explanations for them.  

Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever seen the movie but, yes, in my internet jousting on other forums there are those that are positive that this is a genuine UM saying the scene was so memorable to them that they have no doubt.

You've pointed out in the past that 'positive' and 'certain' are not quantifiable and hence forever arguable. You are probably right on that point. I argue there's a threshold of personal experiences that must be judged to flip our paradigm. I've flipped but not on the Dolly's braces one but I was influenced by the emotional arguments of certainty coming from many others on this ME. I won't rehash my Flintstone experience but I couldn't really be more certain.

You might need your third.

[Guyver]

I remember Dolly with braces for the same reason Zep said.

[Arbenol]

40 minutes ago, the13bats said:

 and the fact more people really didnt study her smile

I wonder what they were distracted by

[papageorge1]

Found these in my other forum;

tigerguy88

·4 yr. ago

 

I turned 13 in June of 1979 and the day after school got out for summer I got braces put on. I felt awful and very sub conscious about it and figured my whole summer was shot. A couple of weeks later my mother took me to see the new James Bond movie trying to cheer me up. Well you probably know where this is going by now so let's just say I left that viewing of Moonraker with a new found confidence because if that gorgeous blond (remember I was 13 so "yes" she was what I focused on!) had braces and fell in love with Jaws and his braces, then there must be hope for me. That memory and era of my life is etched not only into my brain but also is part of the fabric of who I am today. So yes, memories are not perfect but this was a profound moment of my childhood transferring into teen age years. So my question to anyone with the answer is simple - what happened to her braces ?"

 

 

 

VanadiumRed

·4 yr. ago

 

A friend of mine has the same experience as you. He is a conservative, straight laced lawyer. I asked for his ear one day, and told him about ME. Ran through a heap of changes, nothing for him, but then I got to Moonraker. He too had braces as a teenager and identified with Dolly when seeing it in the cinema. He is now convinced that someone has gone and changed all the media.

[the13bats]

31 minutes ago, zep73 said:

Just to be clear. I know I remember it wrong 

Im not perfect i even posted a thread here about a hang up on a film i do have, in jaws mine isnt considered mandella or maybe it is by some not me it has to do with hooper examining chrissys remains in my mind i saw a version that showed more of her than an arm.

To make things worse even Spielberg in an interview asking why hoopers dialogue doesnt flow said that scene was edited cut shorter as it ran long, the focus was on what hooper was saying, not what hopper showed. But if you edited out dialogue then video went too.

I found fan sites that others think they recall it as i do and there are countless versions of hoopers dialog, you likely know how i am about proof and the truth is i dont recall it in very good details which of course bothers a detail junkie like myself my memory of it more like a dream so unless i actually see the scene again i write it off to made up in my mind perhaps i did dream it and recalling it as more.

As i age i do have to wrestle with my mind playing tricks and realizing im not as sharp as i once was stress seems to make it worse.

 

[the13bats]

15 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

He is now convinced that someone has gone and changed all the media.

Who is this "someone"?

[papageorge1]

1 minute ago, the13bats said:

Who is this "someone"?

It was a quote from a person that doesn't believe in exotic Mandela Effect explanations so he is saying a person must have edited the braces out because that is the only way they could be gone. The writer of that quote appears dubious of his conservative friend's claim.

[the13bats]

10 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It was a quote from a person that doesn't believe in exotic Mandela Effect explanations so he is saying a person must have edited the braces out because that is the only way they could be gone. The writer of that quote appears dubious of his conservative friend's claim.

Okay,

[papageorge1]

Here's a link to a discussion of popular Bond girls in the movies. I found two from Moonraker   (this was written 10 years ago...pre flip???)

Manuela

 

 

Played By: Emily Bolton
Movie: Moonraker (1979)
Fun Fact: Emily Bolton is also credited as June Bolton.

Manuela is a photographer sent to spy on Bond during his time in Rio de Jeneiro, Brazil who certainly knows how to kill a few hours. After a few martinis and passionate love making, Manuela accompanies Bond to C&W's warehouse where he encounters Jaws, Drax's giant body guard who owns a mouth full of stainless steel teeth.

 

Dolly

 

 

Played By: Blanche Ravalec
Movie: Moonraker (1979)
Fun Fact: Blanche played the French voice of Marcia Cross' character on Melrose Place.

Dolly is one of the select few who is chosen to travel to Drax's space station as part of his "master race" experiment. She instantly falls in love with his henchman, Jaws, and, with her endearing glasses, pigtails, and braces (and cleavage), convinces him to help Bond escape from Drax's space station.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by papageorge1

[psyche101]

5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It was a quote from a person that doesn't believe in exotic Mandela Effect explanations so he is saying a person must have edited the braces out because that is the only way they could be gone. The writer of that quote appears dubious of his conservative friend's claim.

As incredibly unlikely as that seems, it is still more plausible than moving time lines. 

Not a very high bar sure. But we are talking about paranormal ideas. That bar is so low a racing snake couldn't get under it. 

[papageorge1]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

As incredibly unlikely as that seems, it is still more plausible than moving time lines. 

Not a very high bar sure. But we are talking about paranormal ideas. That bar is so low a racing snake couldn't get under it. 

You'd have to deepen even that conspiracy as the actress today does not remember the braces.

[Skulduggery]

I've never heard of this movie. That is my Mandela effect moment. I am aware of James Bond movies and thought I'd probably heard of them all even though I don't watch them. But, nope. I've never heard of this title before this thread. 

[papageorge1]

OK, I don't speak Spanish but here is what looks for all the world to be a braces commercial and it features DOLLY!!

You can skip the first minute of contact lens commercial. Braces commercial right after. 

@Liquid Gardens     My Leading Theory: This one didn't flip as in a braces commercial it would break reality too dramatically. Remember, I hold intelligence oversees to keep from knocking over reality too much.

Another theory: The commercial was put together in the pre-flip days.

Another theory: Someone made a hoax commercial

Edited August 10, 2022 by papageorge1

[psyche101]

43 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

You'd have to deepen even that conspiracy as the actress today does not remember the braces.

Not really. Still more plausible either way. 

She wore them for a commercial. It's more likely than a why people remember it as being in the movie. A common mistake. Same actors.

 

 

30 minutes ago, Skulduggery said:

I've never heard of this movie. That is my Mandela effect moment. I am aware of James Bond movies and thought I'd probably heard of them all even though I don't watch them. But, nope. I've never heard of this title before this thread. 

I saw it at the movies. Wasn't a huge bond fan so much as I wanted to see the movie for the shuttle and space scenes. I don't remember braces at all.

Edited August 10, 2022 by psyche101

[Golden Duck]

2 hours ago, zep73 said:

That's odd. Are you sure she doesn't have braces? Are you pulling my leg?

I not only remember the braces clear as day, I also remember my thoughts when I saw the scene. I thought: "Aww, how cute, they're a perfect match, both with mouth gear!"
It's what made the scene so funny and memorable!

You're pulling my leg, right?

I cant really tell if she has braces or not.

http://www.bondstars.com/private/blancheravalec/images/moonraker/pbr-moonraker01.jpg

http://www.bondstars.com/private/blancheravalec/images/moonraker/pbr-moonraker01.jpg

 

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Golden Duck

[psyche101]

4 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

I cant really tell if she has braces or not.

http://www.bondstars.com/private/blancheravalec/images/moonraker/pbr-moonraker01.jpg

http://www.bondstars.com/private/blancheravalec/images/moonraker/pbr-moonraker01.jpg

 

 

Apparently that's another ME claim

I shall investigate further....

 

 Intensely....

 

 

 

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

OK, I don't speak Spanish but here is what looks for all the world to be a braces commercial and it features DOLLY!!

You can skip the first minute of contact lens commercial. Braces commercial right after. 

@Liquid Gardens     My Leading Theory: This one didn't flip as in a braces commercial it would break reality too dramatically. Remember, I hold intelligence oversees to keep from knocking over reality too much.

Another theory: The commercial was put together in the pre-flip days.

Another theory: Someone made a hoax commercial

 

https://youtu.be/rCFLgDsqh6Q

Quote

The footage has been edited with visual effects by Romthirty VFX.

 

Edited August 10, 2022 by Golden Duck

[papageorge1]

12 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

 

 

https://youtu.be/rCFLgDsqh6Q

 

 

 

So you are saying this was edited and people in the comments to that edited video are saying they remember the braces as more prominent than in this touch-up editing. So, the Spanish commercial I showed probably used this edited video. That makes sense. Or someone overlayed this into the Spanish video where there was something else?

Edited August 10, 2022 by papageorge1

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

 

She wore them for a commercial. It's more likely than a why people remember it as being in the movie. A common mistake. Same actors.

 

 

I

Now wait a minute. This is still very strong residue for the braces. It's a whole play on that movie scene I would think. 

[psyche101]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

Now wait a minute. This is still very strong residue for the braces. It's a whole play on that movie scene I would think. 

It's more like how the movie scene is very easily confused.

If he she claimed to have grown braces for that commercial it would still be more plausible than moving time lines.