My 2nd Mandela Effect experience

[+Liquid Gardens]

3 hours ago, OverSword said:

I'm sure I'm not mistaken about this one as the entire point of the scene was the cute joke of braces.

When did you last see the movie though?  The above is what I thought too about the point of the scene, again I'm less confident now specifically about Dolly but still sure seem to have a memory of a similar 'trope' for lack of a better word. 

One of the main issues I have with almost all MEs is that they are so obscure and fit the conditions for a false memory, I think it's the 'feeling of certainty' again that's getting distorted.  Think about if something more major was to change, what if you were to find out that you didn't really have a teacher you thought you had in elementary school, and actually the teacher you thought you had taught a different class that you weren't even in.  Depending on a few things of course, that 'change' or mismemory would probably be accompanied by a feeling similar to the ME, but I think that is because it would falsify many memories that may be inter-related in your life, maybe you recall specific field trips or many times in class with that teacher and remember talking with your friends about them, etc.  That ME-type, something-is-wrong feeling would be more understandable.  My misremembering Dolly on the other hand affects nothing else in my reality, it's a singular memory not intersecting with anything else in my life, if she never had braces it's simply a false memory with no implications.  So why do I get that feeling of certainty with Dolly's braces, there seems no rational justification for it given how stand-alone and old it is.

What was weird to me though is that the original comment that brought this to my attention and caused the ME feeling in itself did not contain all the aspects of the false memory, what I read wasn't somehow implanted in my memory banks and my brain is messing up thinking it's an old memory.  The original comment that set me off was about how nice it was that Jaws found someone that liked him who had a mouth full of braces; it didn't say anything about how that plays out in the scene and how Jaws smiles at her and then she reveals her braces, but I 'remembered' that part of it, same as you, as the main 'point' or 'gimmick' of that scene.  Hopefully psychology can somehow get some insight as to what is going on, although it does seem to fit the conditions under which experts say this kind of thing happens.  Maybe what I feel confident about is that this scene and Dolly were in Moonraker, and because I'm misremembering this braces detail my brain is acting like I have that same confidence about that detail and freaking out finding out it is not correct.  I'm just having trouble rationally justifying the exaggerated feeling of certainty I have about this detail given the obscurity and standalone nature of it, and it is that feeling of certainty that is crucial for the ME at all.

[jmccr8]

15 hours ago, Arbenol said:

I wonder what they were distracted by

Hi Arbenol

A bra is a brace of some sort

[Essan]

1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

When did you last see the movie though?

That is of course the point.

No-one has these memories having only ver recently seen the film for the first time.

They only have them after they have been implanted by reading something on social media, long after they saw the film.

The only reason people remember "Luke, I am your father" is because they have seen that mentioned numerous times over the decades since they saw the film. 

And the only reason we remember Dolly had braces is because we have seen it mentioned time and time again in threads about the Mandela Effect.  And haven't actually watched the film since 1979.

The "Mandela Effect" is a perfect example of how false memories work* and why we cannot rely on what we think we remember.  


* and indeed confidence tricksters, mediums and illusionists

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, Essan said:

And the only reason we remember Dolly had braces is because we have seen it mentioned time and time again in threads about the Mandela Effect.  And haven't actually watched the film since 1979.

That may be true for some but not for me.  I just found out about this ME a couple days ago.  I'm still stuck on what I'm confusing it with, as far as I can tell I remember prior to this ME a scene similar to this like I mentioned earlier, but I think that is also a very old unaccessed memory.  The mechanics of that scene were not included in what I initially read about it, as far as I can tell I 'remembered' it but what I may have done is merged the ME in some way with what scraps I remembered.

[psyche101]

7 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Doesn't explain the braces in the commercial we were discussing.

In fact it does. It's obviously how the mix up started.

I know I don't remember braces. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

"Glitch in the Matrix'

I think actually that this would be a better label for your 'Flinstones' experience.  I don't have much reason to doubt that what you remember is what you thought you were perceiving, and memory I think is an essential component of MEs.

3 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

And that strong of an association between Dolly and braces to the extent that it is iconic is becoming very hard to explain-away as a collection of confusion (although not impossible, so we are in a never-ending consideration about an inherently unprovable Effect).

Simply labelling something 'iconic' doesn't really change things.  You don't know to what extent these MEs are pervasive in the population, and it's getting tougher to do so as more people learn about what MEs are.  I as of yet see no reason why this isn't confusion, I see no reason to think that this isn't purely psychological, although I think pretty interesting.  Again, I think it's just the feeling of certainty that's messed up and out of proportion.  Imagine the extreme, you wake up and you and all your coworkers go to work and you get there and your office doesn't exist, there is no evidence outside of all your coworkers memories, and you find sporadic customers let's say that remember your workplace but others who do not.  You would suspect a mass psychosis or maybe indeed that reality has changed, those extreme answers follow from the extremes of the experience.  Now compare that to most MEs.  They're usually not inter-related, the misremembering of just one or a few single old memories out of decades-worth of them would, outside of this ME feeling, totally explain the situation.  And we're supposed to to entertain that reality is changing because of our faith in the accuracy of a few old memories? Doesn't seem at all proportional, it's not nearly as extreme.

[acute]

I believe this subject warrants further investigation.

[+Liquid Gardens]

4 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Just a thought: Maybe the intelligences to be tell us this big scary looking thing (the Mandela Effect) is not as scary as it looks but something we can embrace (like Dolly for the seemingly scary looking guy). Criticism allowed,

I did try to take advantage of the feeling the other night to see what theories I had if it wasn't a false memory.  Taking off my skeptics cap and putting on my tinfoil one, I was thinking along the lines of what if past reality was changing and the probability of that increased the further in time you are away from it.  This came to mind as I was wondering what if the past that's over 30 years ago say starts fraying and changing and it's always been this way but it's only been with today's technology that we've been able to detect it, since for instance we have much greater power to check videos and past news casts and stuff, and send a great many people worldwide in search of a cornucopia on an underwear label.  When you think about it if false memories do exist we probably have a lot of them as it's rare that most of them would even be challenged especially pre-internet.

My skeptics hat is screaming at me for the above and how many holes are in it, so I'm just 'opening my mind up' here which I'm sometimes urged to do to help me appreciate the rhythm of woo.  The only other scenario I could think of is by analogizing it to software distribution online, which would suggest maybe more of a 'Matrix'-type scenario.  The days of purchasing games for computers in a store is pretty much done, it's all downloads now pretty much. I use Steam and it has a feature where it will automatically save copies of my save games to the Steam cloud, and then if I wanted to I could go to any computer and continue playing those saves.  This is an option I believe you can turn off, I sometimes will get a message concerning a conflict between what I have stored locally and what is stored on the cloud, almost always my local copy is the most recent.  So let's say we're all one consciousness or whatever in a simulation and for whatever reason the whole simulation is sometimes updated, let's say it happens in our sleep.  When the simulation is updated it changes all the cloud saves too, which are our memories and consciousness that get synced every night.  We wake up and normally our mind has been restored to/boots up with the updated cloud save, and thus all of a sudden some people remember Dolly without braces and all of our reality has changed to fit that.  However some people waking up maybe are stuck with their local save, the sync failed that has the braces-less Dolly update, so we continue on remember how the simulation was before the software update which was with braces.  During the next sync our local memory overwrites the latest cloud version and we continue on remembering braces and having MEs.

Whew that was hard, now that the skeptics cap is back on let me be the first to properly deal with the 'arguments' above...

Nah, it's a memory issue.

[papageorge1]

5 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I think actually that this would be a better label for your 'Flinstones' experience.  I don't have much reason to doubt that what you remember is what you thought you were perceiving, and memory I think is an essential component of MEs.

I see some of your point as it is not a classic Mandela Effect scenario like the Cornucopia or Dolly's braces, but flip/flops are still generally considered a Mandela Effect. 

9 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Simply labelling something 'iconic' doesn't really change things.  You don't know to what extent these MEs are pervasive in the population, and it's getting tougher to do so as more people learn about what MEs are.  I as of yet see no reason why this isn't confusion, I see no reason to think that this isn't purely psychological, although I think pretty interesting.  Again, I think it's just the feeling of certainty that's messed up and out of proportion.  Imagine the extreme, you wake up and you and all your coworkers go to work and you get there and your office doesn't exist, there is no evidence outside of all your coworkers memories, and you find sporadic customers let's say that remember your workplace but others who do not.  You would suspect a mass psychosis or maybe indeed that reality has changed, those extreme answers follow from the extremes of the experience.  Now compare that to most MEs.  They're usually not inter-related, the misremembering of just one or a few single old memories out of decades-worth of them would, outside of this ME feeling, totally explain the situation.  And we're supposed to to entertain that reality is changing because of our faith in the accuracy of a few old memories? Doesn't seem at all proportional, it's not nearly as extreme.

I think as I said the certainty is unquantifiable but I actually think the Cornucopia, Dolly's braces and Ed McMahon are remembered with considerable certainty by an overwhelming percentage of the American population that are familiar with the cases. I think a best skeptical defense is to underestimate our memory processing ability. After a lifetime of being me I feel I have a good feel for the 'reliability level' of a memory. When I'm wrong on mundane things I realize and accept immediately that I was wrong as I feel I did not have the certainty on the memory. Like I was wrong on the year a football player on my favorite team retired but in no way am I even close to calling Mandela Effect. On the Cornucopia, I'm calling Mandela Effect.

It is a judgment call and I feel this so-called Mandel Effect cannot be satisfactorily explained in our straightforward understanding of reality. I don't have any problem with those that disagree with me.

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 minute ago, papageorge1 said:

I think as I said the certainty is unquantifiable but I actually think the Cornucopia

Perhaps but a lot of the time 'certainty' isn't merely a feeling, like 'beliefs' they usually have something more objective to support them.  People for instance have good reason to be more certain about the location of the work office they've worked at for decades than 30 seconds from a 40 year old movie.  We can't provide a unit of measure for certainty but we can still compare likelihoods and degree of objective support.

6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think a best skeptical defense is to underestimate our memory processing ability.

Bzzzt, sorry you are still not familiar enough with the relevant science to know whether I'm underestimating or overestimating our memory processing ability.  There's no defense required yet, 'this I accept as a false memory but this I don't because more people say how sure they are of the accuracy of their old memory' is still in the 'claim' stage.  You are trying to draw a very fine line between the false memories you accept and the false memories you don't with no relevant expertise and no guidelines on how to differentiate them.  To me there's a whole scientific question concerning the relation between feelings of certainty of memories and the actual accuracy of those memories, something I'd guess would be difficult to study.  But you seem to be assuming that based on how sure someone feels that it makes the memory necessarily more accurate, that's not in evidence yet.

[papageorge1]

7 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I did try to take advantage of the feeling the other night to see what theories I had if it wasn't a false memory.  Taking off my skeptics cap and putting on my tinfoil one, I was thinking along the lines of what if past reality was changing and the probability of that increased the further in time you are away from it.  This came to mind as I was wondering what if the past that's over 30 years ago say starts fraying and changing and it's always been this way but it's only been with today's technology that we've been able to detect it, since for instance we have much greater power to check videos and past news casts and stuff, and send a great many people worldwide in search of a cornucopia on an underwear label.  When you think about it if false memories do exist we probably have a lot of them as it's rare that most of them would even be challenged especially pre-internet.

My skeptics hat is screaming at me for the above and how many holes are in it, so I'm just 'opening my mind up' here which I'm sometimes urged to do to help me appreciate the rhythm of woo.  The only other scenario I could think of is by analogizing it to software distribution online, which would suggest maybe more of a 'Matrix'-type scenario.  The days of purchasing games for computers in a store is pretty much done, it's all downloads now pretty much. I use Steam and it has a feature where it will automatically save copies of my save games to the Steam cloud, and then if I wanted to I could go to any computer and continue playing those saves.  This is an option I believe you can turn off, I sometimes will get a message concerning a conflict between what I have stored locally and what is stored on the cloud, almost always my local copy is the most recent.  So let's say we're all one consciousness or whatever in a simulation and for whatever reason the whole simulation is sometimes updated, let's say it happens in our sleep.  When the simulation is updated it changes all the cloud saves too, which are our memories and consciousness that get synced every night.  We wake up and normally our mind has been restored to/boots up with the updated cloud save, and thus all of a sudden some people remember Dolly without braces and all of our reality has changed to fit that.  However some people waking up maybe are stuck with their local save, the sync failed that has the braces-less Dolly update, so we continue on remember how the simulation was before the software update which was with braces.  During the next sync our local memory overwrites the latest cloud version and we continue on remembering braces and having MEs.

Whew that was hard, now that the skeptics cap is back on let me be the first to properly deal with the 'arguments' above...

Nah, it's a memory issue.

Well, I think this whole subject is so challenging we all need to think with both types of hats. Maybe I am more drawn to the fragmented timelines as I remember in Near Death Experiences people were shown alternate timelines where they saw the consequences of where making a different life decision would have led. Some of the experts I listen to under my tin foil hat talk of how major decisions can cause a branch in the timeline so we can later evaluate life's lessons. And then where do these timelines come from and go? Seems impossible if reality is created out of matter but then they tell me it is all 'thoughts of consciousness' creating the seeming illusory matter. It's all thoughts of an infinite consciousness...so.....

Perhaps the rabbit hole is real....but I'll still concern my self more with leading and happy, loving peaceful life. 

[papageorge1]

27 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Perhaps but a lot of the time 'certainty' isn't merely a feeling, like 'beliefs' they usually have something more objective to support them.  People for instance have good reason to be more certain about the location of the work office they've worked at for decades than 30 seconds from a 40 year old movie.  We can't provide a unit of measure for certainty but we can still compare likelihoods and degree of objective support.

Bzzzt, sorry you are still not familiar enough with the relevant science to know whether I'm underestimating or overestimating our memory processing ability.  There's no defense required yet, 'this I accept as a false memory but this I don't because more people say how sure they are of the accuracy of their old memory' is still in the 'claim' stage.  You are trying to draw a very fine line between the false memories you accept and the false memories you don't with no relevant expertise and no guidelines on how to differentiate them.  To me there's a whole scientific question concerning the relation between feelings of certainty of memories and the actual accuracy of those memories, something I'd guess would be difficult to study.  But you seem to be assuming that based on how sure someone feels that it makes the memory necessarily more accurate, that's not in evidence yet.

OK and well we do have that University of Chicago paper. I think the takeaway from that was that they don't have ready explanations for all of this. Some of the results were challenging for them to explain. New thinking is allowed.

[acute]

2 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

New thinking is allowed.

.....unless it gets canceled. 

[papageorge1]

36 minutes ago, acute said:

.....unless it gets canceled. 

New thinking cancel culture runs strong on this forum….

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

Some of the experts I listen to under my tin foil hat talk of how major decisions can cause a branch in the timeline so we can later evaluate life's lessons.

And they base this theory on what exactly?  'So we can later evaluate life's lessons' seems even more far-fetched, it's so human/intelligence-centric, practically religious. 

Anyway, what makes these 'experts' experts exactly?  Are there experts on timeline branches?  What are their qualifications?

[the13bats]

8 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Nope, but guarenteed they will all be braceless.   It is how it works.

 

Thats correct memory is a very failible thing well proven to be, we have yet to prove the ME is anything past a silly name given to poor memory coined by a profiteer.

[the13bats]

7 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

The 'Mandela Effect' term is for a mass glitch

No, its not its a cheesy expression cooked up for profit trying to make poor memories more than they really are eaten up by the credulous.

[the13bats]

9 hours ago, Mattacaster said:

I remember Dolly having braces. But... It wasn't from an officially released VHS or DVD or Blu Ray or laser disc or anything like that. It was when it was broadcast on TV when I was a kid, when they would edit movies for time and content. My dad is a huge Bond fan but we didn't own any movies. He would record them off of TV. Could it have been a slightly different version than officially released?

I told my brother about a time watching Jaws 2 (again off of broadcast TV when I was a kid). The police copter that comes out to rescue the kids and gets attacked by Jaws. This version however shows extra footage of Jaws attacking the copper chopper from under water, not just from an aerial view. But that shot is not included on my DVD box set. My bro says that sometimes they shoot extra footage to be used in edited versions of the film (back in the day at least). Which makes sense. I mean how much extra footage is in the LOTR extended cuts? But I digress. 

Back to the other Jaws. Could they have filmed 2 or more versions of this scene, with and without braces? I know according to the embedded video above that the actress denies every having braces used in the filming. But that was what? 40-50 years ago? Who remembers everything? Am I having a Mandela effect about Jaws 2, too? I'm going to say “no”.

No to jaws 2 you can quickly find the scene of the chopper pilot under water on youtube.

As far as holy grail deleted jaws scenes excuse my drama, in the first jaws when mike and his buddies are in the "pond" and the guy in rowboat looses his leg all we see is mike in the water scared but that was a horrendous scene that is mosty lost the actors talk about, while jaws is chewing on the boat man swimming away the boatman grabs up mike carries him a ways then pushes him away from the shark as it finishes him off that gives a better explaination to mikes reaction.

This has been hacked and shopped back together but mostly lost forever.

Many TV edits add footage i loved the film the deep and the tv cut answers many questions the orginal left out, as far as last time i looked the tv edit has never been released to purchase.

[the13bats]

9 hours ago, zep73 said:

I chose the one where her lips were furthest apart, but here's a few others

Very intriguing, i use an old note5 and crap vision i do not have my phone very bright the last couple shots show she has large dark space between her teeth and up on s big screen a little tooth reflection sure it could give the impression of braces where one would have expected them to be.

[zep73]

5 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Very intriguing, i use an old note5 and crap vision i do not have my phone very bright the last couple shots show she has large dark space between her teeth and up on s big screen a little tooth reflection sure it could give the impression of braces where one would have expected them to be.

Back when I saw it it was the mid 80's and on an old time 24 inch screen, sitting 2-3 meters away.
There were black bars on top and bottom of the picture, making it even smaller.

Edited August 11, 2022 by zep73

[Alchopwn]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:55 AM, Liquid Gardens said:

I 'remember' Dolly having braces in this scene, and finding out she didn't last night triggered a Mandela Effect, a stronger one than my previous Berenstain Bears ME. 

Dolly DEFINITELY had braces in MY reality thank you very much and frankly I demand to go back there (assuming it wasn't nuked to ashes).  That being said, and given how silly this version of reality is, how the hell didn't this version of reality get nuked?

[the13bats]

So why are all alleged example of ME obscure meaningless tripe, if a girl wore brace if Simmons had a headband, or McMahon really worked for PCH, its never anything big and world changing epic.

[Essan]

2 hours ago, the13bats said:

So why are all alleged example of ME obscure meaningless tripe, if a girl wore brace if Simmons had a headband, or McMahon really worked for PCH, its never anything big and world changing epic.

That's because they erase all the important memories, like the Russians dropping an atomic bomb on Berlin in 1944, JFK being the first man to play electric guitar on the Moon in 1972,  or Waterworld winning 19 Oscars and spawning 7 sequels, including Waterworld VI:  The Search for the Last Roll of Toilet Paper - which remains the biggest box office hit of all time and is estimated to have been seen in the cinemas by every person who has ever lives at least twice.     But sometimes trivial ones get missed.   Hence we still remember that New Zealand used to be somewhere else, even though no-one actually knows what New Zealand is. 

[papageorge1]

14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

And they base this theory on what exactly?  'So we can later evaluate life's lessons' seems even more far-fetched, it's so human/intelligence-centric, practically religious. 

Actually, reality in this thinking becomes a play/drama of consciousness and humans are one form through which consciousness experiences. Yes, it's all about conscious experiencing.

 

14 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Anyway, what makes these 'experts' experts exactly?  Are there experts on timeline branches?  What are their qualifications?

They are 'experts' in my judgment and many others that respect knowledge gained from beyond the level of the physical senses and instruments (yes, allegedly). We are more than physical matter and can experience more than the physical.

 

Skeptic Hats: Matter is primary and consciousness is a derivative of matter

Tin Foil Hats: Consciousness is primary and matter is a derivative of Consciousness

Edited August 11, 2022 by papageorge1

[papageorge1]

3 hours ago, the13bats said:

So why are all alleged example of ME obscure meaningless tripe, if a girl wore brace if Simmons had a headband, or McMahon really worked for PCH, its never anything big and world changing epic.

I'm thinking these trivial things are just side effects of a process of speeding up the improvement of humanity. If the anomalies are trivial enough the process is best to go forward.