In what religion do I fit?

[cormac mac airt]

10 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

fan·ta·sy

[ˈfan(t)əsē]

 

NOUN

1. the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable:

   "his research had moved into the realm of fantasy"

   synonyms:

   imagination · creativity · fancy · invention · originality · vision · speculation · make-believe · daydreaming · reverie
2. music

   a musical composition, free in form, typically involving variation on an existing work or the imaginative representation of a situation or story; a fantasia.

VERB

literary

1. imagine the occurrence of; fantasize about:

   "it is ludicrous to fantasy “disinventing” the hydrogen bomb"

Giving you an “A” for effort. Copy and paste was almost too light to read though. 
 

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

I’ve yet to see anyone purposely will themselves to stop breathing or their heart to stop beating, without repercussions, for say 30 minutes then come back and tell everyone about the experience. Free will indeed. 
 

cormac

[Guyver]

I’ve been off work for two months and ten days now.  I had many things planned to do when I finally got the time I needed to get the jobs done like painting the master bathroom and organizing the files in my office.  Neither of those jobs have gotten done because I have chosen to not do them.  I have the freedom to do them, but not the will. Sigh.

[+Desertrat56]

14 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

I’ve yet to see anyone purposely will themselves to stop breathing or their heart to stop beating, without repercussions, for say 30 minutes then come back and tell everyone about the experience. Free will indeed. 
 

cormac

Sorry to get off track but that reminded me of the biggest reason I hate the star wars movies that started with episode 1.  Some one needed to tell  George Lucas to just forget about episodes 1-3, there was a reason his mentor had him start with 4 way back when he was no body.    No pregnant woman would will herself to die while giving birth no matter how bad things were, because who is going to take care of the baby or babies?    Only a teenage boy would think that is a reasonable plot device.

As for what you said about willing themselves to stop breathing or their heart to stop beating, I have never seen it either.   That is one thing I don't believe actually happens.   Even with the stories of an old married couple dying withing hours of each other, etc.   They may have died within hours of each other but the second one probably was about to die anyway.   It was not a will or my great grandmother would have died the same day her husband died instead of 6 months later, because she was bereft.   

Edited October 12, 2022 by Desertrat56

[Will Due]

 

I just willed myself. 

 

 

[cormac mac airt]

6 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Sorry to get off track but that reminded me of the biggest reason I hate the star wars movies that started with episode 1.  Some one needed to tell  George Lucas to just forget about episodes 1-3, there was a reason his mentor had him start with 4 way back when he was no body.    No pregnant woman would will herself to die while giving birth no matter how bad things were, because who is going to take care of the baby or babies?    Only a teenage boy would think that is a reasonable plot device.

As for what you said about willing themselves to stop breathing or their heart to stop beating, I have never seen it either.   That is one thing I don't believe actually happens.   Even with the stories of an old married couple dying withing hours of each other, etc.   They may have died within hours of each other but the second one probably was about to die anyway.   It was not a will or my great grandmother would have died the same day her husband died instead of 6 months later, because she was bereft.   

Just a note to say that a person actually CAN die of a broken heart. Kind of rare but it does occur. 
 

cormac

[+Desertrat56]

Just now, cormac mac airt said:

Just a note to say that a person actually CAN die of a broken heart. Kind of rare but it does occur. 
 

cormac

Instantaneously?

[cormac mac airt]

7 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Instantaneously?

Nearly so, yes. 
 

ETA:  https://www.unitypoint.org/livewell/article.aspx?id=a7f06d29-de06-4343-bfef-ebb12fc667bd

 

Quote

What is “Broken Heart Syndrome?”

According to the American Heart Association (AHA), broken heart syndrome, or takotsubo cardiomyopathy, is a reaction your heart has to a surge of stress hormones caused by an emotionally stressful event. Broken heart syndrome causes the heart to stop operating normally, resulting in heart failure. During these situations, the body releases an increase of hormones, which temporarily paralyzes your heart and limits its standard functionality.

cormac

Edited October 12, 2022 by cormac mac airt

[+Hammerclaw]

47 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nearly so, yes. 
 

ETA:  https://www.unitypoint.org/livewell/article.aspx?id=a7f06d29-de06-4343-bfef-ebb12fc667bd

 

cormac

It can happen. When I was in the hospital for congestive heart failure, my mother died. After they told me, I had two incidents of grief and wishing to die so intense that it set the heart monitors off and they rushed to my room, belatedly. They ask me what happened, but I didn't tell them. 

[cormac mac airt]

18 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

It can happen. When I was in the hospital for congestive heart failure, my mother died. After they told me, I had two incidents of grief and wishing to die so intense that it set the heart monitors off and they rushed to my room, belatedly. They ask me what happened, but I didn't tell them. 

Although also not life ending I had a similar experience the morning my wife died. I was torn between wanting to be with her and wanting to keep my end of what would be the last promise we would ever make to each other, that being to see our grandson finish his college education in Medical Coding and Business Administration. 
 

cormac

[+joc]

3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

This makes no sense to me.  I define fantasy in this case as something known/strongly justified to not be true.  Let's say that OJ's case is not one where there is knowledge, ultimately we don't know.  As you admit, either the statement 'OJ is a murderer' or 'OJ is not a murderer' is true.  If I believe OJ is a murderer and someone else believes he isn't then logically as you admit one of us a right.  Thus you seem to have 'one of these two beliefs is true and thus unknown 'knowledge', but they are both fantasies', which doesn't work with how I define those terms.

No, we have evidence not just anecdote. Just because a belief does not require any rational basis and may thus maybe be termed 'fantasies', there are a lot of beliefs that do have a rational basis.  I think 'fantasy' is defined by how you are getting to your conclusion, not by how certain you are in the belief or whether it's unproven or not.

In all honesty...I think OJ is guilty.  Just saying...

Provable in court is not the same thing as provable by science.

I will now ask some questions...

Isn't everything, even the 'mental' actually physical?  What really is mental?  Isn't everything 'mental' actually derived from the physicality of our brains?  I.e.  the neurons firing in the brain, the chemical reactions that happen in our brain because of them, the creation of memories of our five senses?  Is belief fantasy because it cannot be provably shown to be true?  Or is belief fantasy because it is all in our head.  Consciousness is a funny thing.  Do rocks have consciousness?  Rocks are all physical...but so are are our brains.  Where does mental begin and physical end ...or does it?

@XenoFish talks about the Reality Tunnel.  I get that, except that our perceptions seem to be all born of a physical interaction in our brains.  So, where do you draw the line?  What is mental reality, what is physical reality.  It seems to be a blur.  How do we know that rocks or the sand in the desert or the 'outer space' between the stars do not experience some consciousness.  What is it exactly about our brains....and/or  the brains of a goldfish that makes consciousness a thing  or not?   Is it Life that is conscious and nothing else?  I tend to think it is the amount of grey matter in our brains...but if all of that grey matter is all physical...what is mental?

I like talking to you because you actually think.  And thinking is what (I think) is actually consciousness. Do rabbits experience consciousness? Or is it only the coyote chasing them? Or either?  What is it exactly that makes humans conscious?  All of these questions are one's I think about all the time.  Interested, truly interested what your thoughts are.

[XenoFish]

Any organism that has some type of perception experience the world around them. The blue I see might not match the same hue that you do. Given different eyes it might not even be blue. Of course such questions beg asking "what is the true color of things?".

Even the taste and smell of thing vary between each of us.

Then we can through the use of imagination recall something so strongly that we experience it. Thinking about the smell of a cigarette then a phantom smell occurs. Same for a taste or touch, even a visual hallucination (like a ghost). 

All manufactured through thought. Of course those things being what they are, we have to ask what is real. 

I experienced the placebo effect at the hospital Saturday. They prepared my good arm for the morphine then something to knock me out. Once the first needle was in I felt a wave of relief. Even though nothing had been given yet. 

All through the power of belief. 

[+Hammerclaw]

45 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Although also not life ending I had a similar experience the morning my wife died. I was torn between wanting to be with her and wanting to keep my end of what would be the last promise we would ever make to each other, that being to see our grandson finish his college education in Medical Coding and Business Administration. 
 

cormac

That's alright. Only a fool seeks death, for it will find us all, in the end.

[Guyver]

1 hour ago, joc said:

1. In all honesty...I think OJ is guilty.  Just saying...

2. Rocks are all physical...but so are are our brains.  Where does mental begin and physical end ...or does it?

@XenoFish

i numbered two of your points for brevity.  On point one = same.

On point two?  Excellent question.

 

[jmccr8]

13 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I think after you get older, the ability to recognize misinformation is increased.

 

 

 

Hi Will

Are you sure of that? Do you understand target groups because criminals and marketing do. It would depend on what age group of old you are inferring and what their education, mental/emotional state they are in and if there are any medications involved. Door to door insurance or other salesman target the married women during a present/pitch because they will likely be the deciding factor.

Never go shopping for furniture with your wife with her girlfriend/sisters or you will be sitting on a couch you don’t like and isn’t comfortable.

Older people unfamiliar with tech often get scammed online and then there are tele-preachers that target the old with guilt, forgiveness and eternal live for their savings.

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

I just willed myself. 

 

 

Freed Willie did you 

[+Sherapy]

6 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

So in other words, you used the possession a free will to decide to go on a diet.

You didn't have to rewire your brain to do that, did you?

 

 

Anytime one does something consistently and long enough the brain will wire a new neural pathway, yet, the old path will still be there. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Sherapy

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Sorry to get off track but that reminded me of the biggest reason I hate the star wars movies that started with episode 1.  Some one needed to tell  George Lucas to just forget about episodes 1-3, there was a reason his mentor had him start with 4 way back when he was no body.    No pregnant woman would will herself to die while giving birth no matter how bad things were, because who is going to take care of the baby or babies?    Only a teenage boy would think that is a reasonable plot device.

As for what you said about willing themselves to stop breathing or their heart to stop beating, I have never seen it either.   That is one thing I don't believe actually happens.   Even with the stories of an old married couple dying withing hours of each other, etc.   They may have died within hours of each other but the second one probably was about to die anyway.   It was not a will or my great grandmother would have died the same day her husband died instead of 6 months later, because she was bereft.   

Hi Desertrat

I took care of the apartment block I lived in when I first moved here while the owner went to Hong Kong for a month. I had a fellow come up and said he hadn’t seen the neighbours for a while and there was a strong smell on his floor. It ended up I called the cops to come in with me and found the couple dead. She was older and in poor health and they both were daily drinkers. She died on the bed and he probably drank himself to death sitting in the recliner in the living room likely died days after her and called no one about her death.

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Will Due said:

 

Okay but deciding to take advice from the doctor was a freewill decision to do so wasn't it? 

 

 

No Will, I exercised  personal agency. Not any different than using agency in the selection of my husband, having kids,  a career, etc. Free Will is the philosophical position that nothing external/internal influences our decisions. As I stated earlier, free will in the sense you are advancing it doesn’t apply in this context or many others. 
 

 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Sherapy

[+joc]

3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Any organism that has some type of perception experience the world around them. The blue I see might not match the same hue that you do. Given different eyes it might not even be blue. Of course such questions beg asking "what is the true color of things?".

Even the taste and smell of thing vary between each of us.

Then we can through the use of imagination recall something so strongly that we experience it. Thinking about the smell of a cigarette then a phantom smell occurs. Same for a taste or touch, even a visual hallucination (like a ghost). 

All manufactured through thought. Of course those things being what they are, we have to ask what is real. 

I experienced the placebo effect at the hospital Saturday. They prepared my good arm for the morphine then something to knock me out. Once the first needle was in I felt a wave of relief. Even though nothing had been given yet. 

All through the power of belief. 

For some reason that reminds me of something my father told me once.  When he was a kid, on a rare occasion  my grandmother would make each one of them two cherry pies.  He said that he could never really enjoy the first pie because of his anticipation for the second.

The mind is a strange thing.  Human existence is a strange thing.   The more I think I understand, the more I realize that I don't understand anything...Like the layers of an onion...we peel back only to find, more onion, and when we get to the bottom of the onion, there isn't any more onion to peel back.  No more answers, no more onion.  What part of human existence is not an enigma?

[+Sherapy]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

For some reason that reminds me of something my father told me once.  When he was a kid, on a rare occasion  my grandmother would make each one of them two cherry pies.  He said that he could never really enjoy the first pie because of his anticipation for the second.

The mind is a strange thing.  Human existence is a strange thing.   The more I think I understand, the more I realize that I don't understand anything...Like the layers of an onion...we peel back only to find, more onion, and when we get to the bottom of the onion, there isn't any more onion to peel back.  No more answers, no more onion.  What part of human existence is not an enigma?

The facts are in general Neuroscience doesn’t know a lot about the mind. Love your posts. 

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, joc said:

The mind is a strange thing.  Human existence is a strange thing.   The more I think I understand, the more I realize that I don't understand anything

Hi Joc

I don’t really concern myself about why I exist just what I do with my existence. I observe the world both physical and other humans around me as well as myself so most of the questions in my life are about how and why I interact with them. Nothing mystical but man times fascinating nonetheless as I tend not to make things absolutes but recognize commonalities that are reliable.

I am content to learn knowing that I cannot understand or know everything and apply what I have learned to a constructive purpose. 

[+joc]

7 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Joc

I don’t really concern myself about why I exist just what I do with my existence. I observe the world both physical and other humans around me as well as myself so most of the questions in my life are about how and why I interact with them. Nothing mystical but man times fascinating nonetheless as I tend not to make things absolutes but recognize commonalities that are reliable.

I am content to learn knowing that I cannot understand or know everything and apply what I have learned to a constructive purpose. 

I am not really concerned about why I exist or that I exist.  I'm not even concerned about what to do with my existence.  Nor am I concerned about what happens to my existence after I cease existing.  

I will never be content with believing that real questions cannot be answered.  And I know I am not the only one asking these questions.  I would imagine that there are scientists working on AI that contemplate the same things.  The reason that things don't fit neatly into some equation for explaining 'mental' may simply be that 'mental' is a myth.  We live in a physical universe.  Is WIFI physical?  Of course it is.  Do we call WIFI 'mental'?  Of course not.  So why are the connections that happen in our brain that give rise to consciousness not physical as well?  I feel pretty confident that we will figure all of that out at some point.  

Meanwhile, I will just keep wondering about the thoughts that go on in our heads.

Edited October 13, 2022 by joc

[+joc]

On 10/6/2022 at 12:11 PM, Will Due said:

the main purpose of this short and temporary life.

Temporary life.  Life isn't temporary.  Life is permanent.  From the beginning of life on planet Earth...there has never been a time when life on Earth didn't exist.  Life is permanent.  

Death is also permanent.  From the beginning of life on planet Earth, there has never been a living thing that didn't die, nor has there ever been a dead thing that came back to life.

Somewhere along the way, you walked into the Belief Maze.  You have been wandering around in there looking for the truth for a long time.  There is no truth in the Belief Maze...only dead ends.  

 

[+Desertrat56]

10 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Desertrat

I took care of the apartment block I lived in when I first moved here while the owWowner went to Hong Kong for a month. I had a fellow come up and said he hadn’t seen the neighbours for a while and there was a strong smell on his floor. It ended up I called the cops to come in with me and found the couple dead. She was older and in poor health and they both were daily drinkers. She died on the bed and he probably drank himself to death sitting in the recliner in the living room likely died days after her and called no one about her death.

Wow, that is sad.   I wonder if they just didn't have any more relatives.   Or if they were heavy drinkers everyone had quit coming to check on them.    That happens a lot with heavy drinkers, they don't want anyone around so they are nasty tempered.