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Legalese - a foreign language


Dreamer screamer
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https://www.b****ute.com/video/mOLxaUBrLqbT/

A judge has admitted that the language they use in court is NOT English but legalese - a foreign language.   

So how can anyone be determined crazy or not fit for society in a court room if they don't even speak English??       It is the equivalent of going to anther country and seeking justice when you don't know the language. 

How can we learn what is right and wrong when the system is not in English???   

What is Psychology?By Dr. Saul McLeod, updated 2019


Psychology is the scientific study of the mind and behavior, according to the American Psychological Association. Psychology is a multifaceted discipline and includes many sub-fields of study such areas as human development, sports, health, clinical, social behavior and cognitive processes.

Yet the law uses another language NOT English, and yet law has been in society for hundreds of years.   How are we suposed to get on with one another if we all don't speak the same language?

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29 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

A judge has admitted that the language they use in court is NOT English but legalese - a foreign language.   

That is exactly why when you go to court you have an advocate, well versed in legalese, to speak on your behalf, it’s called having a lawyer.

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Just now, Grey Area said:

That is exactly why when you go to court you have an advocate, well versed in legalese, to speak on your behalf, it’s called having a lawyer.

But you are still in a foreign language, they don't speak English.   The judge and the lawyer are speaking legalese - NOT English.    So where did this foreign language come from and why is it in America, Britain, and Australia?    In fact probably in Europe too.   What foreign language is it???

“they were taken to court for breaking the law”
2.  statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present

So if you are in observation and see a law being broken how do you know they have actually broken the law?  If a car drives through a red light, that doesn't make the Driver a criminal.  Why would I need to speak to a lawyer if I get arrested that is going to speak a foreign language if I have to go to court?  

Everyone is affected by the law, in every country now the police are a strong force.  Philosophy teaches why people break the law, but did they know it was a foreign language being used?

If you argue in a court of law the judge can automatically send you down with a psyche evaluation.    But how can you talk to the judge if you don't speak the lingo???   The judge can simply go "I don't understand him and his arguments for and against, he's crazy."  Because the defendant didn't know he had to speak Legalese when he/she was using English. 

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2 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

But you are still in a foreign language, they don't speak English.   The judge and the lawyer are speaking legalese - NOT English.

I would suggest it is more of a dialect personally.

4 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So if you are in observation and see a law being broken how do you know they have actually broken the law?

You report it to the authorities and let them investigate.

5 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

If a car drives through a red light, that doesn't make the Driver a criminal. 

No because driving through a red light would not be subject to criminal law.

You could find yourself appearing before a civil magistrate though.

7 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Why would I need to speak to a lawyer if I get arrested that is going to speak a foreign language if I have to go to court?  

Because a lawyer is an expert in law, just like if you had to visit the doctor, you could choose to take someone who might understand medical issues better.  Advocacy is not limited to the legal system.

You could also choose to forgo your right to representation and represent yourself. The judge will ensure you are able to do this.

12 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Everyone is affected by the law, in every country now the police are a strong force.  Philosophy teaches why people break the law, but did they know it was a foreign language being used?

This is a stupid question, of course they know it is a difficult area, that is the reason lawyers exist.

 

15 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

If you argue in a court of law the judge can automatically send you down with a psyche evaluation.

The judge cannot automatically do this, they have to have justification for this, and will likely be following advice from an expert.

18 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

But how can you talk to the judge if you don't speak the lingo???   The judge can simply go "I don't understand him and his arguments for and against, he's crazy."

That’s not how it works… At all.  The judge, and advocates will of course speak English.

Criminal courts employ a jury of peers.  They will decide whether the defendant is guilty or not.  They need to understand the proceedings.

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You on this nonsense again.

Let's pretend legalese is a foreign language (it's actually specialized terminology), what country is it from?

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Interesting you bring up Psychology, because by your logic it (and every other field of science) is also a foreign language.

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3 minutes ago, Grey Area said:
Quote

I would suggest it is more of a dialect personally.

No....we want facts, NOT guessing.  Law doesn't do guessing.

Quote

 

You report it to the authorities and let them investigate.

 

You say Authorities.  MEANING: a person or organization having political or administrative power and control.

An Organization?  Power corrupt, absolutel power corrupt absolutely.  How do we know the  authorites have too much power? 

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No because driving through a red light would not be subject to criminal law.

Precisely!  but yet you would have to face some penalty charge???  So are you bowing to some foreign power?

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You could find yourself appearing before a civil magistrate though.

So is the red light going to take you to court?  Under common law you have to injure another human being for it to be a crime.

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Because a lawyer is an expert in law, just like if you had to visit the doctor, you could choose to take someone who might understand medical issues better.  Advocacy is not limited to the legal system.

Like I said, you have to speak a foreign language in your own country? how do americans that are patriotic feel about this?

 

Quote

You could also choose to forgo your right to representation and represent yourself. The judge will ensure you are able to do this.

But how can you represent yourself when you don't know how to speak a 'foreign language'?  Most people assume when they go to court they're speaking English. Is this deceptive?

 

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This is a stupid question, of course they know it is a difficult area, that is the reason lawyers exist.

Lawyers exist because common sense doesn't?

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The judge cannot automatically do this, they have to have justification for this, and will likely be following advice from an expert.

Yes they can.  If you ask too many questions they can do what they like in their court room.

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That’s not how it works… At all.  The judge, and advocates will of course speak English.

No... the judge admitted in the video that they speak Legalese which is a foreign language.   They may sound like they are speaking English, but unless you ask for a definition, they may have another definitoin which is different in legalese.     Request and required are synonymous in legalese. 

 

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Criminal courts employ a jury of peers.  They will decide whether the defendant is guilty or not.  They need to understand the proceedings.

 

Anything can be said with freedom to have opinions and actions in society.  However, when it comes to deciding whether something happened, the jury are the only ones to decide whether it happened or not.   For instance: If I punch you in the face, no one around, but the bruises and blood are there and you want to take me to court, I could make anything up to get out of it.  How will the jury decide whether this happened or not???  There is no evidence and I could give a convincing story i was somewhere else.   What If the Jury says not guilty, does this mean I never punched you???  So this incident didn't happen in reality, and you made it all up, who determines truth??   legally this was satifsified, authority is satisifed that the law was followed.   Yet who decided this was ok??? what authority stated this was ok??? some foreign language??   Who is this foreign language?

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18 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Interesting you bring up Psychology, because by your logic it (and every other field of science) is also a foreign language.

So who or what is this foreign language?  Can you point to it??  is it tangiable? does it breath? does it exist?    is it just a making of some crazy mind?

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20 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

You on this nonsense again.

Let's pretend legalese is a foreign language (it's actually specialized terminology), what country is it from?

"As you know council, i really don't speak English, we speak another language it's legalese."    So English is not spoken in a court of law??  It's an American court in AMERICA!!!  

Specialized terminology??

Yes, a foreign language called legalese.  A foreign language in a court if America.   THe patriots must be like,    WHAT???? 

America is full of different people, yet they're all under Legalese NOT a English language.

The only place where I have found a foreign language and legal system is here in chicago manual of styles.

11.147 GLOSSES IN ASL
The written-language transcription of a sign is called a gloss. Glosses are words from the spoken
language written in small capital letters: WOMAN, SCHOOL, CAT. (Alternatively, regular capital letters
may be used.) When two or more written words are used to gloss a single sign, the glosses are
separated by hyphens. The translation is enclosed in double quotation marks.
The sign for "a car drove by" is written as VEHICLE-DRIVE-BY.
One obvious limitation of the use of glosses from the spoken/written language to represent signs is
that there is no one-to-one correspondence between the words or signs in any two languages.

This is under foreign languages.  

Glosses

What is GLOSSA?

Lat. A gloss, explanation, or interpretation. The glossce of the Roman law are brief illustrative comments or annotations on the text of Justinian's collections,made by the professors who taught or lectured on them about the twelfth century,(especially at the law school of Bologna,) and were hence called "glossators." These glosses were at first inserted in the text with the words to which they referred, and were called "glossc B intcrlineares;" but afterwards they were placed in the margin,partly at the side, and partly under the text, and called "glossce marginales." A selection of them was made by Accursius, between A. D. 1220 and 12G0, under the titleof "Olossa Ordin- aria," which is of the greatest authority. Mackeld. Rom. Law,

This is where a foreign language gets it authority from, glossa.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

However, when it comes to deciding whether something happened, the jury are the only ones to decide whether it happened or not.

Yes that is literally the Jury's only job!

 

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

For instance: If I punch you in the face, no one around, but the bruises and blood are there and you want to take me to court, I could make anything up to get out of it.

Well, yes and no.

Jesus, have you never watched a police procedural or courtroom drama?

If you punched me (pretending i didnt punch you back much harder), I would call the police they would collect evidence, my bruises as well as the likely corresponding evidence on your own fist.  The police would complete their investigation and present it to the crown prosecution service, who would decide whether the evidence was sufficient to secure a conviction.  You could try to talk your way out of it, this would require explaining away the evidence, but all that would be before it got to court.

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

How will the jury decide whether this happened or not???

They listen to the testimony of the involved parties and make a decision.

 

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

There is no evidence and I could give a convincing story i was somewhere else.

If there is no evidence, it probably wouldnt go to court.

 

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

What If the Jury says not guilty, does this mean I never punched you???  So this incident didn't happen in reality, and you made it all up, who determines truth??

Not guilty could mean a number of things.  So it could indeed mean that the jury thinks the whole incident has been made up, but if it has got that far, it's likely that the question of an assault has been evidenced.

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

legally this was satifsified, authority is satisifed that the law was followed.

Yes, regardless of the outcome, the justice system has served it's purpose.

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Yet who decided this was ok??? what authority stated this was ok???

No one person or authority, laws have been made and developed for hundreds of years.

 

1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

some foreign language??   Who is this foreign language?

Dont be silly 

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Yes that is literally the Jury's only job!

Have you seen 12 angry men?

Well, yes and no.

Quote

 

Jesus, have you never watched a police procedural or courtroom drama?

If you punched me (pretending i didnt punch you back much harder), I would call the police they would collect evidence, my bruises as well as the likely corresponding evidence on your own fist.  The police would complete their investigation and present it to the crown prosecution service, who would decide whether the evidence was sufficient to secure a conviction.  You could try to talk your way out of it, this would require explaining away the evidence, but all that would be before it got to court.

 

it was a hypothetical, no need to bring EGO into it...   But stil down to Jury to decide if it happened.   

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They listen to the testimony of the involved parties and make a decision.

A decision?   so this still doesn't mean there is justice.

Quote

If there is no evidence, it probably wouldnt go to court.

It has to go to court. 

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No one person or authority, laws have been made and developed for hundreds of years.

It takes one person to write law.   I would argue thousands of years.

Rome soldiers are the equivalent of the police today?  think about it.

Quote

Dont be silly 

look at the post above your one.  I think I have shown where authority comes from??????

Rome?

Who and what resides in Rome???  who has the highest LEGAL authority in Rome???

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Suzie dent a lexicographer on countdown was asked a question about words and where they come from; her reply was that words originate and come from Latin.   

Legalese meaning: the undoing of Gods work.

So of course all our doctors and solicitors and philosphy came from Rome and europe and has been spreading across the world.  These are very dogmatic views held for a very long time. 

So when the Judge stated it's not English, but yet English is made up of french words like cheque, where American uses check.   As a British man I would see check and think what?:huh:  only until I get a definition do I know what that word means. 

So If someone said "have you got that check" I would understand what they were talking about, but written down would be like what?

gloss
verb uk
gloss verb [T] (EXPLAIN)
to provide an explanation for a word or phrase:
 
Even te bible used to have a glossary to help explain words and meanings.  We always find glossary : an alphabetical list of words relating to a specific subject, text, or dialect, with explanations; a brief dictionary.
 
Yet why don't we find legalese is not English???  
 
How comes philosophy nevers talks about this?

 

 

 

 

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Yes, regardless of the outcome, the justice system has served it's purpose

Where did that come from?

magna carta 1215 section 39

39

No free man is to be arrested, or imprisoned, or disseised, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any other way ruined, nor will we go against him or send against him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.

So the first legal document to make sure everyone that has a wrong donw to them is judged by his peers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/magna-carta-sell-faversham-council-town-hall-kent-a9213491.html

Outrage as town proposes selling its Magna Carta for £20m to fund office refurbishments

Magna Carta is one of the founding articles of English Common Law and the British constitution

Not really good philosphy to live by, to sell the fundmental rights of slaves.. I mean humans to fund council refurbishment.  

 

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16 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Where did that come from?

magna carta 1215 section 39

39

No free man is to be arrested, or imprisoned, or disseised, or outlawed, or exiled, or in any other way ruined, nor will we go against him or send against him, except by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.

So the first legal document to make sure everyone that has a wrong donw to them is judged by his peers.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/magna-carta-sell-faversham-council-town-hall-kent-a9213491.html

Yes Magna Carta was an important step in establishing civil rights, it would be largely ignored for significant periods in British history.

19 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Outrage as town proposes selling its Magna Carta for £20m to fund office refurbishments

Magna Carta is one of the founding articles of English Common Law and the British constitution

Not really good philosphy to live by, to sell the fundmental rights of slaves.. I mean humans to fund council refurbishment.  

The document being sold would be sad, but that doesn’t have any bearing on your assertions.

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39 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Suzie dent a lexicographer on countdown was asked a question about words and where they come from; her reply was that words originate and come from Latin.   

Legalese meaning: the undoing of Gods work.

So of course all our doctors and solicitors and philosphy came from Rome and europe and has been spreading across the world.  These are very dogmatic views held for a very long time. 

So when the Judge stated it's not English, but yet English is made up of french words like cheque, where American uses check.   As a British man I would see check and think what?:huh:  only until I get a definition do I know what that word means. 

So If someone said "have you got that check" I would understand what they were talking about, but written down would be like what?

gloss
verb uk
gloss verb [T] (EXPLAIN)
to provide an explanation for a word or phrase:
 
Even te bible used to have a glossary to help explain words and meanings.  We always find glossary : an alphabetical list of words relating to a specific subject, text, or dialect, with explanations; a brief dictionary.
 
Yet why don't we find legalese is not English???  
 
How comes philosophy nevers talks about this?

 

 

 

 

Many professions will have their own vocabulary.  In the legal sector, this is important as legal cases work on precedents, legal judgements made in the past that may resemble a case being used currently.  However, you don’t want to go over a whole case, so instead you use a reference word that will indicate which case law precedent you are citing. A common example of this is Fraser/Gillick competence, or Miranda rights.  Both of these are the names of the cases in which a legal process was established.

Other professions use their own vocab, the military being a good example.  Fire in the hole, Danger close etc etc.

Its all understandable English that is contextual, understood by those trained to use it.

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Other professions use their own vocab, the military being a good example.  Fire in the hole, Danger close etc etc.

Its all understandable English that is contextual, understood by those trained to use it.

fire in the hole is a military term to express the fact that a grenade is about to go off and to warn people, so it is informal speech.

Diglossia defintiion

diglossia
/dʌɪˈɡlɒsɪə/
 
noun
Linguistics
noun: diglossia
  1. a situation in which two languages (or two varieties of the same language) are used under different conditions within a community, often by the same speakers. The term is usually applied to languages with distinct ‘high’ and ‘low’ (colloquial) varieties, such as Arabic.
     
    So we have formal and informal language.  If I did something wrong under contact, I would get a formal warning.   If I did something wrong without contract I would not bother about the consequences.
     
    Years ago the English had there own language called the cockney language.  Not many people could actually read back then nor were interested in reading as survival was more important.   So the English culture were used to each other and the way they spoke.   A type of informal language everyone knew what they were talking about.  Today it has vanished as people are more speaking Proper grammatical English.  But yet we are still believing the law is English when it is clearly not English, but a foreign language.
     
     
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13 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So who or what is this foreign language?  Can you point to it??  is it tangiable? does it breath? does it exist?    is it just a making of some crazy mind?

Foreign languages breath(sic)?  Are you trying to be intelligible or just making stupid noises?

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12 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Yes, a foreign language called legalese.  A foreign language in a court if America.   THe patriots must be like,    WHAT???? 

What country is the foreign language from?

 

12 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

America is full of different people, yet they're all under Legalese NOT a English language.

The only place where I have found a foreign language and legal system is here in chicago manual of styles.

11.147 GLOSSES IN ASL
The written-language transcription of a sign is called a gloss. Glosses are words from the spoken
language written in small capital letters: WOMAN, SCHOOL, CAT.

This is an example of typography, we've been over this before.

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1 minute ago, Rlyeh said:

Foreign languages breath(sic)?  Are you trying to be intelligible or just making stupid noises?

Foreign language - what is it then because as I have shown -

What is GLOSSA?

 

Lat. A gloss, explanation, or interpretation. The glossce of the Roman law are brief illustrative comments or annotations on the text of Justinian's collections,made by the professors who taught or lectured on them about the twelfth century,(especially at the law school of Bologna,) and were hence called "glossators." These glosses were at first inserted in the text with the words to which they referred, and were called "glossc B intcrlineares;" but afterwards they were placed in the margin,partly at the side, and partly under the text, and called "glossce marginales." A selection of them was made by Accursius, between A. D. 1220 and 12G0, under the titleof "Olossa Ordin- aria," which is of the greatest authority. Mackeld. Rom. Law,

This was found in Chicago manual of styles under 'foreign languages'

glossator

(ɡlɒˈseɪtə)

n
1. (Journalism & Publishing) Also called: glossarist, glossist or glossographer a writer of glosses and commentaries, esp (in the Middle Ages) an interpreter of Roman and Canon Law
 
Where does a judge who isn't speaking English get their authority???   The judge admitted it's legalese NOT English!!   So what is Authority??  If it legalese, what is it??
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19 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

What country is the foreign language from?

Looking at the facts from chicago manual of styles, it appears to be from Rome.   Why is rome ruling America and Australia??  If after 1776 Britain lost the war and America gained its indepedence from Britain did they use the bill of rights 1689?  

Quote

This is an example of typography, we've been over this before.

Typography is the art of arranging letters and text in a way that makes the copy legible, clear, and visually appealing to the reader. It involves font style, appearance, and structure, which aims to elicit certain emotions and convey specific messages. In short, typography is what brings the text to life.

But legalese is NOT English.  So what definitions are the judges using to bring life to their world?    Have we walked into a fantasy world when walking into a court room?

Why are they using a different style or typography? 

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The scholars of the 11th- and 12th-century legal schools in Italy, France and Germany are identified as glossators in a specific sense. They studied Roman law based on the Digesta, the Codex of Justinian, the Authenticum (an abridged Latin translation of selected constitutions of Justinian, promulgated in Greek after the enactment of the Codex and therefore called Novellae), and his law manual, the Institutiones Iustiniani, compiled together in the Corpus Iuris Civilis. (This title is itself only a sixteenth-century printers' invention.) Their work transformed the inherited ancient texts into a living tradition of medieval Roman law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossator

So if America is America, why is Italy, France and Germany which is a foreign language to America running America and Australia?   The judge stated - it's legalese NOT English.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Roman_law

Medieval Roman law is the continuation and development of ancient Roman law that developed in the European Late Middle Ages. Based on the ancient text of Roman law, Corpus iuris civilis, it added many new concepts, and formed the basis of the later civil law systems that prevail in the vast majority of countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_law_(legal_system)

Civil law is a legal system originating in mainland Europe and adopted in much of the world. The civil law system is intellectualized within the framework of Roman law, and with core principles codified into a referable system, which serves as the primary source of law. The civil law system is often contrasted with the common law system, which originated in medieval England, whose intellectual framework historically came from uncodified judge-made case law, and gives precedential authority to prior court decisions.

So civil law is a legal system of legalese that is not English but rules the world which came from the medieval England,   So it came from England, but is not English???  

Of course, the magna carta 1215 was the first ever legal document ever to exist, signed under duress by the barons but made void by the pope.     So if we follow the logic, the pope declared it null and void, so why does the pope have any say in England?

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30 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Foreign language - what is it then because as I have shown -

No where is there any mention of a foreign language.

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GLOSSATOR. A commentator or annotator of the Roman law. One of the authors of the Gloss.

Gloss

An annotation, explanation, or commentary on a particular passage in a book or document, which is ordinarily placed on the same page or in the margin to elucidate or amplify the passage.

Has man created his own language that is not English??

Legalese

Slang; technical jargon used by attorneys that is often beyond the comprehension of the nonlawyer.

States enact "plain English" laws that require the translation of legalese into everyday language to permit consumers to understand thei insurance policies, deeds, mortgages, leases, credit card financing agreements, and other legal documents.

jar·gon

n.

1. The specialized language of a trade, profession, or similar group, especially when viewed as difficult to understand by outsiders

So Legalese is plain English that requires translation of leglaese.    So they claim it is plain English, but to which it is NOT!!! as the judge clearly stated, "Legalese is not English!"

A special language?  so the law system uses a 'special language'.  So every trade has its own language which makes sense because a painter uses paint and colours.  A craftsman would use his specialised language for his tools.    A lawyer would use 'specialised language' that seems to be of roman descent?   What is in Rome?  The Vatican!?

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How does a foreign language breathe?

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30 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Looking at the facts from chicago manual of styles, it appears to be from Rome.   Why is rome ruling America and Australia??  If after 1776 Britain lost the war and America gained its indepedence from Britain did they use the bill of rights 1689?

Wow.  I can't tell if you're playing stupid.

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