Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Piney]

12 hours ago, acute said:

Vague and subject to interpretation?

I'm pretty certain I know exactly what's happening! 

And wishes it was you. 

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

You need sails to be "sailors". We were "paddlers". 

These guys used sails:

https://accessgenealogy.com/florida/chontal-maya-putun-maya.htm

 

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2022 at 8:16 PM, Autistocrates said:

Wikipedia isn't the most reliable source, simply becausr anybody could go there and alter already existing claims.

And that's why I always check the notes and references. Yes, anybody can add anything to a wikipage, but if it's nonsense or unproven, it gets edited out the next day. Wikipages are not anymore like Wikipedia started.

[Piney]

21 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

These guys used sails:

https://accessgenealogy.com/florida/chontal-maya-putun-maya.htm

 

The Arawak-Taino traders who canoed to Georgia and the Carolinas might of used sails.

[Abramelin]

On 9/22/2022 at 8:16 PM, Autistocrates said:

Here, a closer look at that vague and subject-to-interpretation mural:

And read what others made of it:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Circumcision-scene-from-the-tomb-of-Ankh-ma-Hor-Saqqara-Sakkara-Egypt-2-500-3-000-BC_fig2_278660669

[Abramelin]

26 minutes ago, Piney said:

The Arawak-Taino traders who canoed to Georgia and the Carolinas might of used sails.

My ex is of Arawak descent, ànd I have a book about the Taíno. I'll check the latter one first...

Edited to add: it's a Dutch book, and the very first text (in Dutch) is a quote from Columbus and it goes, translated, something like this:

"They are convinced that I and these ships came straight from the heavens. And that's not because they are ignorant or stupid, for they have a sharp intelligence and sail all the seas of this area."

Edited September 24, 2022 by Abramelin

[Piney]

41 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

My ex is of Arawak descent, ànd I have a book about the Taíno. I'll check the latter one first...

Edited to add: it's a Dutch book, and the very first text (in Dutch) is a quote from Columbus and it goes, translated, something like this:

"They are convinced that I and these ships came straight from the heavens. And that's not because they are ignorant or stupid, for they have a sharp intelligence and sail all the seas of this area."

There's been a Arawak-Taino cultural revival among Puerto Ricans. 

[Piney]

54 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And that's why I always check the notes and references. Yes, anybody can add anything to a wikipage, but if it's nonsense or unproven, it gets edited out the next day. Wikipages are not anymore like Wikipedia started.

I've had Wiki pages deleted on me just because they were controversial.

But yes you need citations for everything.

[Abramelin]

8 hours ago, Piney said:

I've had Wiki pages deleted on me just because they were controversial.

But yes you need citations for everything.

Your pages may have been controversial, but if you want those pages to stay as you intended, you need to add links to reliable references.

Nowadays critics watch wiki pages like hawks. If they have a chance to put you down, they won't hesitate for a second.

[Alchopwn]

On 9/23/2022 at 4:40 PM, Piney said:

I don't disagree. But a leather sail would not do well in the open ocean crossing . It would rot, especially if it was sewn with plant based twine and stiffen from the sun and salt air over a long period and the Celts only sailed during the day and navigated using the coastline. 

I wanted to add from earlier that I think Oak Island was a Basque fishing station where they interacted with the Mikmak. 

Hmm... I dunno.  You can scrape leather pretty thin and flexible.  Remember, against all odds, the Vikings used woolen sails, and somehow, having washed wool and seen it swell and then shrink, and how much water it takes on, I figure if you can cross the ocean with a woolen sail like a Viking, or a paper sail like the Chinese, or beaten palm fronds like the Polynesians, maybe leather isn't the worst thing I've ever heard of.  I mean, it's no spinnaker silk, but...

[Piney]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Your pages may have been controversial, but if you want those pages to stay as you intended, you need to add links to reliable references.

Nowadays critics watch wiki pages like hawks. If they have a chance to put you down, they won't hesitate for a second.

I had all my ducks in a row. Every fact with a citation.

But it was about the Muslim Crusade against Buddhism. 

[Abramelin]

On 9/23/2022 at 8:40 AM, Piney said:

I don't disagree. But a leather sail would not do well in the open ocean crossing . It would rot, especially if it was sewn with plant based twine and stiffen from the sun and salt air over a long period and the Celts only sailed during the day and navigated using the coastline. 

Ok. So you mentioned leather sails used by the Veneti, and the De Bello Gallico, and it's indeed there.

But then I also searched for a wikipage about these Veneti:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_(Gaul)

Quote:

Recently a study in France has shown that there is a remarkable correlation between the geographical distribution of a genetic disease (Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Dysplasia (ARVD)) and the different Venetian settlement sites: Vistula basin, Adriatic Gulf and Armorican Massif in particular. This highlights the migratory flow of this people through the ages from their initial settlement site in Asia Minor from the 13th century BC.

Wtf??

So I downloaded the paper from the link (it's right after 'Recently' from my quote).

The title: "Sur la trace des Vénètes Histoire de la diffusion de la dysplasie ventriculaire droite arythmogène (DVDA) à travers l’Europe" by Herbert.

And this is written in the beginning of the paper:

"Les Vénètes sont un ensemble de peuples indo-européens ayant migré à partir du XIIIe siècle avant J.-C., de la mer Noire vers l’Europe centrale, septentrionale et occidentale sans se mélanger aux autres populations rencontrées. La répartition actuelle en Europe Occidentale de la DVDA se superpose assez fidèlement aux foyers de peuplement vénètes : bassin de la Vistule, golfe de l’Adriatique et Massif Armoricain en particulier."

In English:

"The Veneti are a group of Indo-European peoples who migrated from the 13th century BC, from the Black Sea to central, northern and western Europe without mixing with other populations they encountered. The current distribution in Western Europe of the DVDA is superimposed fairly faithfully on the Venetian population centers: basin of the Vistula, Gulf of the Adriatic and Armorican Massif in particular."

A map from the pdf:

These Veneti originated quite close from the Phoenician homeland, ànd started their migration during the time of the Sea Peoples.

 

[Piney]

18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Ok. So you mentioned leather sails used by the Veneti, and the De Bello Gallico, and it's indeed there.

But then I also searched for a wikipage about these Veneti:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_(Gaul)

Quote:

Recently a study in France has shown that there is a remarkable correlation between the geographical distribution of a genetic disease (Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Dysplasia (ARVD)) and the different Venetian settlement sites: Vistula basin, Adriatic Gulf and Armorican Massif in particular. This highlights the migratory flow of this people through the ages from their initial settlement site in Asia Minor from the 13th century BC.

Wtf??

So I downloaded the paper from the link (it's right after 'Recently' from my quote).

The title: "Sur la trace des Vénètes Histoire de la diffusion de la dysplasie ventriculaire droite arythmogène (DVDA) à travers l’Europe" by Herbert.

And this is written in the beginning of the paper:

"Les Vénètes sont un ensemble de peuples indo-européens ayant migré à partir du XIIIe siècle avant J.-C., de la mer Noire vers l’Europe centrale, septentrionale et occidentale sans se mélanger aux autres populations rencontrées. La répartition actuelle en Europe Occidentale de la DVDA se superpose assez fidèlement aux foyers de peuplement vénètes : bassin de la Vistule, golfe de l’Adriatique et Massif Armoricain en particulier."

In English:

"The Veneti are a group of Indo-European peoples who migrated from the 13th century BC, from the Black Sea to central, northern and western Europe without mixing with other populations they encountered. The current distribution in Western Europe of the DVDA is superimposed fairly faithfully on the Venetian population centers: basin of the Vistula, Gulf of the Adriatic and Armorican Massif in particular."

A map from the pdf:

These Veneti originated quite close from the Phoenician homeland, ànd started their migration during the time of the Sea Peoples.

 

This is actually looks like the gene flow of Anatolian Farmers which someone made quite a mess of.

@cormac mac airt What's the real pattern abuelo?

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Piney said:

This is actually looks like the gene flow of Anatolian Farmers which someone made quite a mess of.

@cormac mac airt What's the real pattern abuelo?

Did this gene flow of Anatolian farmers not happen long before 1300 bce?

[Piney]

30 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Did this gene flow of Anatolian farmers not happen long before 1300 bce?

Celts were entering Anatolia about the time of Alexander. Not going the other way before that.

And "Wende" is a blanket term for a group of mixed Slavs living near the Germans.

I'm way confused by the map.....

[SHaYap]

The Peloponnesian conflict might have something to do with the spread up north... 

Quote

Bryn Mawr College

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu › ...

A war like no other : how the Athenians and Spartans fought ...

 

Victor Hanson argues that the Peloponnesian War was “like no other” because of the number of lives lost in its battles. His book thus involves an extended ...

 

 

 

SuperSummary

https://www.supersummary.com › s...

A War Like No Other Summary - SuperSummary

 

A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War is Victor Davis Hanson's 2005 book that takes an in-depth...

 

...

~

 

[cormac mac airt]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

This is actually looks like the gene flow of Anatolian Farmers which someone made quite a mess of.

@cormac mac airt What's the real pattern abuelo?

Hello Piney one can’t, OR SHOULDN’T confuse the Gallic Veneti with the Italian Veneti the latter of which are mainly Haplogroup R1b and predate anything remotely “Phoenician” by several millennia having likely originated with the influx of Anatolian Farmers after circa 6000 BC. 
 

cormac

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, Piney said:

Celts were entering Anatolia about the time of Alexander. Not going the other way before that.

But it's not even sure these Veneti were Celts.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

one can’t, OR SHOULDN’T confuse the Gallic Veneti with the Italian Veneti

A guy called Herbert, whom I quoted in a former post does.

Did you read his paper which I posted? Yes, it's in French, but Google Translator is great.

[Abramelin]

6 hours ago, SHaYap said:

The Peloponnesian conflict might have something to do with the spread up north... 

~

 

Nowhere near 1300 bce.

[Piney]

43 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

But it's not even sure these Veneti were Celts.

Veneti

Beneti

Benabe

Lenabe 

.........According to my sound shift tornado method, they're Algonquian.

....I'm too far away to hit.......

[Abramelin]

43 minutes ago, Piney said:

Veneti

Beneti

Benabe

Lenabe 

.........According to my sound shift tornado method, they're Algonquian.

....I'm too far away to hit.......

Have one from me.

[SHaYap]

7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Nowhere near 1300 bce.

I won't be all that fixated on time estimates or stretch based on very flimsy speculations.

Back in those days, direction and duration takes on a life of its own. 

~

[Autistocrates]

On 9/24/2022 at 1:02 PM, Abramelin said:

And read what others made of it:

The sculpter was probably some swishy type of whom got kicks from watching teens lodging their foreskins behind their knobs. From here, it doesen't look like it's been snipped

[Piney]

4 hours ago, Autistocrates said:

The sculpter was probably some swishy type of whom got kicks from watching teens lodging their foreskins behind their knobs. From here, it doesen't look like it's been snipped

Can we get back on topic and off the groadiness.....

For Christsakes I'm autistic too!!!! But who cares about who's cutting their winkies...

Edited September 27, 2022 by Piney
Atlantis is a brain fart