Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Windowpane]

Wiki on the Maykop culture.

[Piney]

16 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I found the book a few houres ago, by accident (I moved an old couch, and there it was).

And ... forget it.

It was a book my mother gave me for my birthday a couple of weeks after my father had died ( - we both had the same birthday - ) in 1977.

She had bought it for me, months before, because she knew I loved ancient history and reading.

The book's title: "De grootste mysteries aller tijden" (The greatest mysteries of all times), and the publisher was Reader's Digest.

To make a long story short: the article said Russian scientists had found an inscription in Phoenician script, but in an ancient Abchazian language. It was supposedly about the trip of the Argonauts.

The accompanying photo of the script looked nothing like the Phoenician script....at all. Much more like Sumerian pictographs.

I have those Reader's Digest books. They published more than one.

They aren't known for accuracy. 

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, Piney said:

I have those Reader's Digest books. They published more than one.

They aren't known for accuracy. 

I know, but I was 20 years old, and internet and PCs was something of the future.

Heh, just think: I remembered reading a very short article in some book, 45 years ago.

[Piney]

15 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

Wiki on the Maykop culture.

I agree they were a non IE culture who were hybridized with the Indo-Europeans. I also think they spoke a ancestral Caucasian language.

[Piney]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

I know, but I was 20 years old, and internet and PCs was something of the future.

Heh, just think: I remembered reading a very short article in some book, 45 years ago.

I got them when I still believed all the alternative silliness. 

[The Puzzler]

On 1/6/2023 at 12:01 AM, Abramelin said:

I know, but I was 20 years old, and internet and PCs was something of the future.

Heh, just think: I remembered reading a very short article in some book, 45 years ago.

I might even have that one. I like them, good, basic information.

[The Puzzler]

On 9/19/2022 at 4:49 AM, Abramelin said:

"Relentless attacks by groups known as the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC virtually destroyed all the major powers of the Mediterranean, and cleared the way for the rise of the Greeks, Romans and Western civilization.[i]

 Surprisingly for such a pivotal moment in world history, the origin and identity of the Sea Peoples are still widely debated. Many theories have been advanced to explain these times, and their participants have been declared to come from Anatolia, or the Aegean, or even Atlantis. We will consider the various theories, as well as a new composite view which does not appear to have been considered previously. An important element mentioned by many sources, and yet given consideration by virtually none, is the simple fact that—in the midst of a cataclysm which destroyed almost every city in the eastern Mediterranean area—the Phoenician cities remained untouched. This turns out to be one of the keys which help to unlock the mystery of the Sea Peoples—an event which changed the course of history."

Source:

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

 

I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce.

Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion?

Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so.

Did they pay the invaders?

What?

 

Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians.

That can't be a coincidence, right?

 

No, it can’t. They probably were the Sea People. 

[The Puzzler]

Here’s why…they appeared without trace, possibly coming from elsewhere or always there, from the time Herodotus states they say they arrived there, or archaeological  evidence that seems to show they were indigenous and the culture rose at 1200BC. He states they started trade with Assyria immediately. So we don’t even really know.  They weren’t attacked because  their major cities weren’t built at that time, they but they settled at the later time of the Sea People invasions, after taking this area without having to destroy anything.

They had ties with Crete, Europe, Greece and Libya in mythology and reality.

BUT the telling is, in the Pharoahs count of circumcised penises. He may have been counting his own men, to find traitors. Or he may have been counting “Syrio-Phoenicians”….the only others to circumcise in the Mediterranean sphere, except Egyptians and Ethiopians, at that time. ‘Herodotus’.

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Again, I haven’t read the whole thread and off to bed but thought I’d add that. I find it a very telling thing tbh.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

No, it can’t. They probably were the Sea People. 

Right, and after they fought the Egyptians they happily traded with them afterwards.

Not very likely.

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

BUT the telling is, in the Pharoahs count of circumcised penises. He may have been counting his own men, to find traitors. Or he may have been counting “Syrio-Phoenicians”….the only others to circumcise in the Mediterranean sphere, except Egyptians and Ethiopians, at that time. ‘Herodotus’.

Herodotus also reports, however, that "the Phoenicians, when they come to have commerce with the Greeks, cease to follow the Egyptians in this custom, and allow their children to remain uncircumcised."^[35]

Archaeological or further literary records do not support that circumcision was truly widespread among Semites.^[43] In the case of the Phoenicians, it has been proposed that Herodotus and successors like Aristophanes might have mistaken Jews for them, as Biblical sources describe Phoenicians and other peoples like the Philistines as uncircumcised.^[44] Roman authors do not mention circumcision in Carthage or other Phoenician settlements in Africa,^[43] even although it would have added to the colourful Punic stereotype entertained in Roman literature.^[45] Other authors believe Phoenicians abandoned the practice at some point,^[46] although it might have not fully died out, as proved by Philo's record.^[42]

[The Puzzler]

16 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I might even have that one. I like them, good, basic information.

Actually mine is The Worlds Last Mysteries. Probably similar.

[Piney]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Actually mine is The Worlds Last Mysteries. Probably similar.

Jesus!!! Frank Joseph (aka Collin) the Jewish Neo-Nazi pedophile who was mocked openly in the Blues Brothers!

Burn that book! 

[The Puzzler]

On 2/10/2023 at 6:44 PM, Piney said:

Jesus!!! Frank Joseph (aka Collin) the Jewish Neo-Nazi pedophile who was mocked openly in the Blues Brothers!

Burn that book! 

“Covington, his rival for NSPA "power", made the fortuitous discovery (while rifling through Collin's desk) that the half-Jewish fuehrer also had a weakness for pedophilia and did not hesitate to photograph his dalliances with a number of young boys. As a result, Collin was sent to prison.”

Fortuitous is the key word here. Set up is the second.

“Collin was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, where he attended local schools. His father, Max Frank Collin, was born Max Simon Cohn in Munich, Germany, on August 23, 1913,^[6] the son of Jewish parents who were murdered in The Holocaust, and was a survivor of Dachau concentration camp.”

Wiki.

Your words are contrived belief, you have no idea of his life. Let’s keep on track.

Edited February 11, 2023 by The Puzzler

[atalante]

A 2023 paper by Sturt Manning has identified a three year period of severe drought (1198-1196 BCE) that seems to have caused the Hitites to abandon their capital city.   https://www.academia.edu/96552545/Severe_multi_year_drought_coincident_with_Hittite_collapse_around_1198_1196_BC?email_work_card=title

This three years of severe drought, with simultaneous major disruptions and weakness throughout the Hittite empire, would be a detonator that led to the legendary Trojan War, and the incursions of the Sea Peoples.   

Edited February 11, 2023 by atalante

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, atalante said:

A 2023 paper by Sturt Manning has identified a three year period of severe drought (1198-1196 BCE) that seems to have caused the Hitites to abandon their capital city.   https://www.academia.edu/96552545/Severe_multi_year_drought_coincident_with_Hittite_collapse_around_1198_1196_BC?email_work_card=title

This three years of severe drought, with simultaneous major disruptions and weakness throughout the Hittite empire, would be a detonator that led to the legendary Trojan War, and the incursions of the Sea Peoples.   

I read that more than an hour ago.

But there was more going on than a severe drought:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/249093-what-happened-around-1200-bce/

[Piney]

24 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

“Covington, his rival for NSPA "power", made the fortuitous discovery (while rifling through Collin's desk) that the half-Jewish fuehrer also had a weakness for pedophilia and did not hesitate to photograph his dalliances with a number of young boys. As a result, Collin was sent to prison.”

Fortuitous is the key word here. Set up is the second.

“Collin was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois, where he attended local schools. His father, Max Frank Collin, was born Max Simon Cohn in Munich, Germany, on August 23, 1913,^[6] the son of Jewish parents who were murdered in The Holocaust, and was a survivor of Dachau concentration camp.”

Wiki.

Your words are contrived belief, you have no idea of his life. Let’s keep on track.

I know my ancestors, the Adena weren't Japanese Celts.

I also know a Nazi is a massive piece of ****, and one whose parent was Jewish Holocaust survivor doesn't deserve anyone's attention or money.....

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, Piney said:

I know my ancestors, the Adena weren't Japanese Celts

Are you absolutely sure about that??

[The Puzzler]

44 minutes ago, atalante said:

A 2023 paper by Sturt Manning has identified a three year period of severe drought (1198-1196 BCE) that seems to have caused the Hitites to abandon their capital city.   https://www.academia.edu/96552545/Severe_multi_year_drought_coincident_with_Hittite_collapse_around_1198_1196_BC?email_work_card=title

This three years of severe drought, with simultaneous major disruptions and weakness throughout the Hittite empire, would be a detonator that led to the legendary Trojan War, and the incursions of the Sea Peoples.   

I think the Hittites put their money into the Mycenaeans and features like The Lions Gate were built then.

[Thanos5150]

On 2/10/2023 at 12:44 AM, Piney said:

Jesus!!! Frank Joseph (aka Collin) the Jewish Neo-Nazi pedophile who was mocked openly in the Blues Brothers!

Burn that book! 

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

Yve. Buddy. You've got to read something other than these fringe sources man. You have the interest so why you nearly without exception gravitate towards the least reliable elements is a mystery. The author you site, for example, not only at a brief glance gets several minor details wrong, is Frank Joseph. The Frank Joseph also known as Frank Collin:
 

Quote

Before starting his writing career as Frank Joseph, Frank Joseph Collin was the head of the National Socialist Party of America, an offshoot of the National Socialist White People's Party. Under his leadership, the Nazi Party of America achieved notoriety and fame when it tried to stage a march in Skokie, a largely Jewish suburb of Chicago. The attempts to organise a march and the response of the local government ultimately led to a case heard by the Supreme Court.

He lost his position in the party he founded after being convicted of child molestation in 1979.

As a white supremacist and self-described Nazi, Frank Joseph mostly writes about the hypothesis that European peoples migrated to North America before Columbus, and that all Native American civilizations were initiated by descendants of white people.

In 1987 he wrote his first book about Atlantis.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest this is not the most reliable source and as a matter of principle not someone that should be cited by anyone ever.

[Piney]

7 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Quoting myself from elsewhere:

Yve. Buddy. You've got to read something other than these fringe sources man. You have the interest so why you nearly without exception gravitate towards the least reliable elements is a mystery. The author you site, for example, not only at a brief glance gets several minor details wrong, is Frank Joseph. The Frank Joseph also known as Frank Collin:
 

Quote

Before starting his writing career as Frank Joseph, Frank Joseph Collin was the head of the National Socialist Party of America, an offshoot of the National Socialist White People's Party. Under his leadership, the Nazi Party of America achieved notoriety and fame when it tried to stage a march in Skokie, a largely Jewish suburb of Chicago. The attempts to organise a march and the response of the local government ultimately led to a case heard by the Supreme Court.

He lost his position in the party he founded after being convicted of child molestation in 1979.

As a white supremacist and self-described Nazi, Frank Joseph mostly writes about the hypothesis that European peoples migrated to North America before Columbus, and that all Native American civilizations were initiated by descendants of white people.

In 1987 he wrote his first book about Atlantis.

I am going to go out on a limb and suggest this is not the most reliable source and as a matter of principle not someone that should be cited by anyone ever.

Since my last name is Joseph, I've had people connect me with that dumpster case. Which really p***es me off.

I think Nazis should be treated as terrorists, traitors and hung or shot at Leavenworth .....

[Thanos5150]

20 minutes ago, Piney said:

I think Nazis should be treated as terrorists, traitors and hung or shot at Leavenworth .....

You could hang them first and then shoot at them. Make a day of it. 

[atalante]

On 2/11/2023 at 6:45 AM, The Puzzler said:

I think the Hittites put their money into the Mycenaeans and features like The Lions Gate were built then.

Puzzler,

iirc the Lion Gate at Mycenae is considered to be built ca 1275 BCE (but that is long before the era of Sea Peoples invasions).

The neo-Assyrian empire had crippled the Hittite empire decisively in the 1237 BCE Battle of Nihirya.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Nihriya

Tukulti-Ninurta reigned in Assyria, ca. 1243-1207 BCE -- but after the Battle of Nihriya, Tukulti-Ninurta turned Assyria's attention eastward, and conquered nearly all of Mesopotamia.

 

Hittite king Tudhalia IV (who reigned ca. 1245-1215 BCE) acted to re-invigorate the Hittite empire -- after losing the Battle of Nihriya, and while the neo-Assyrians were focusing on Mesopotamia.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tudḫaliya_IV 

Tudhaliya IV doubled the size of the Hittite capital city Hattusa, and built lavish temples.  https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/ancient-cultures/ancient-near-eastern-world/the-last-days-of-hattusa/

 

Gerard Gertoux supplies an important detail about the Bronze Age Collapse, a detail that Wikipedia has missed (up to now). i.e. Tudhaliya IV annexed the prolific copper mining island Cyprus into the Hittite empire.  (At that time, Cyprus had been supplying large amounts of copper to most neighboring countries and empires.  Eventually the later Hittite kings stopped Cyprus's copper from being sold to the Mycenaeans, although these were bronze Age Mycenaeans, who needed copper).

The world stage was then set for efforts by the Mycenaeans to invade the Levant (i.e. the Trojan War; and Homer's epic Odyssey; and the Sea Peoples invasions), aiming for Aegean groups to regain access to Cyprus's copper.   

 

quoting Gertoux from:

https://www.amazon.com/Trojan-War-Chronological-Historical-Archaeological/dp/1329750667?asin=1329750667&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1

A precise chronological reconstruction, using a few absolutely known dates, shows that the annexation of the kingdom of Cyprus (Alashia), closely linked to the Mycenaean world, by the Hittite King Tudhalia IV played a role of detonator in the confrontation between a Greek heterogeneous confederation, consisting of pirates and privateers on one side, and a set of vassal kingdoms of the Hittite empire, such as Troy and Ugarit, on the other.  This struggle to control a vital sea path from Crete to Egypt, via Cyprus, which ended in a complete mutual destruction in 1185 BC, the climax of the famous Trojan War, had begun 10 years earlier.

Edited February 13, 2023 by atalante

[Abramelin]

Baal-Hammon (god of the Carthaginians) :

 

The Philistines (Medinet Habu) :

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

On 9/18/2022 at 8:49 PM, Abramelin said:

"Relentless attacks by groups known as the Sea Peoples around 1200 BC virtually destroyed all the major powers of the Mediterranean, and cleared the way for the rise of the Greeks, Romans and Western civilization.[i]

 Surprisingly for such a pivotal moment in world history, the origin and identity of the Sea Peoples are still widely debated. Many theories have been advanced to explain these times, and their participants have been declared to come from Anatolia, or the Aegean, or even Atlantis. We will consider the various theories, as well as a new composite view which does not appear to have been considered previously. An important element mentioned by many sources, and yet given consideration by virtually none, is the simple fact that—in the midst of a cataclysm which destroyed almost every city in the eastern Mediterranean area—the Phoenician cities remained untouched. This turns out to be one of the keys which help to unlock the mystery of the Sea Peoples—an event which changed the course of history."

Source:

https://phoenician.org/sea_peoples/

 

I started this thread because I have always wondered why the Phoenician cities remained out of harms way during the invasion of the (Land and) Sea Peoples around 1200 bce.

Whatever did they do to protect themselves from the invasion?

Or did they participate in the invasion? I don't think so.

Did they pay the invaders?

What?

 

Just this: the Phoenicians became the rulers of the Mediterranean sea right after the defeat of the Sea Peoples by the Egyptians.

That can't be a coincidence, right?

 

An interesting respons:

https://peripluscd.wordpress.com/2013/03/05/chronicle-4-phoenicias-stroke-of-fortune/