Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

And…Egyptians called then ‘fenkui’ I believe, I don’t know if they had this name before the Greeks but it seems to me, Egyptians would hardly use a Greek variant of a name for them…but that Greeks took this name into their language..for them, from the Egyptian name. 

Not that long ago I found out they called the Canaanites "Retjenu":

https://books.google.nl/books?id=2R1JEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT36&lpg=PT36&dq=retjenu+meaning&source=bl&ots=KBPvo6TaV3&sig=ACfU3U2R6wzG39M_TxqHXrbajaPQvmQ_IQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS-bujsPT6AhXIgf0HHaR0DvwQ6AF6BAgJEAE#v=onepage&q=retjenu meaning&f=false

[docyabut2]

Eqwesh, Lukka, Shekelesh, Sherden, Teresh 

who were all these peoples ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Edited April 14, 2023 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

On 4/7/2023 at 11:33 PM, The Puzzler said:

Just on the hats/helmets…it seems these people were more relative to Lebanon than Libya as this scene is from the Battle of Djahy, in Southern Lebanon. He fought two battles, Ramesses III, one there and one in the Nile Delta,  but these pictures are from the said Djary battle.

”Prior to the battle, the Sea Peoples had sacked the Hittite vassal state of Amurru which was located close to the border of the Egyptian Empire. This gave Ramesses III time to prepare for the expected invasion. As he states in an inscription from his mortuary temple at Medinet Habu: "I equipped my frontier in Zahi (Djahy) prepared before them."^[3] The Hittitologist Trevor Bryce writes that the Sea Peoples' "land forces were moving south along the Levantine coast and through Palestine when they were confronted and stopped by Ramesses' forces at the Egyptian frontier in Djahy in the region of later Phoenicia".”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Djahy

Sea Peoples in conflict with the Egyptians in the battle of Djahy

It looks like the  Phoenicias only have  the feather helmets and the Tyrrhenians only have the  helmets with the horns.and also looks like they are fighting each other .

[docyabut2]

 

[docyabut2]

https://www.google.com/search?q=tyrrhenian+sea+peoples+pictures+&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwiDobLftqr-AhXpLt4AHfclBukQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=tyrrhenian+sea+peoples+pictures+&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQDFCCEFiUlgFgirYBaABwAHgAgAGAAYgBgwiSAQM5LjKYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=k9Q5ZMOLMund-L

 

YP98uYyA4&bih=654&biw=1344&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS631US633#imgrc=jVfCrGeZhmSvBM

Edited April 14, 2023 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

[jmccr8]

10 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Eqwesh, Lukka, Shekelesh, Sherden, Teresh 

who were all these peoples ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Hi Docy

Not sure Sea People we’re ever one cultural group and maybe more of a diverse group of like thinkers.

[The Puzzler]

18 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Not that long ago I found out they called the Canaanites "Retjenu":

https://books.google.nl/books?id=2R1JEAAAQBAJ&pg=PT36&lpg=PT36&dq=retjenu+meaning&source=bl&ots=KBPvo6TaV3&sig=ACfU3U2R6wzG39M_TxqHXrbajaPQvmQ_IQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiS-bujsPT6AhXIgf0HHaR0DvwQ6AF6BAgJEAE#v=onepage&q=retjenu meaning&f=false

Yes…I have heard of that.

I make notes in what I read and I do have ‘fenkui’ in my notes…but I don’t have a link…I’m sure it’s mentioned in the Wiki Sea People article though…Keftui being Crete and the Fenkui being Phoenicians when I noted this…

 

[The Puzzler]

21 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Yes. But they called themselves "Kh'nn" or Canaanites.

Some say the term "Punic" came from the way their neighbours the Hebrew called them: ponim. This means "heads" or "faces", and maybe because of the heads on their coins.

Another explanation is the way they called their goddess Tanit: Tanit phane Ba'al, or Tanit the face of Baal.

Faithless, treacherous….could be the actual meaning of Phoenicians….nothing to do the murex shell…or red or purple.

: of or relating to Carthage or the Carthaginians 

 

2

: FAITHLESS, TREACHEROUS 

The word “Punic” is Latin.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Punic#:~:text=Pu·nic ˈpyü-nik,Punic

 

Etymology

Adjective

Latin punicus, from Poenus inhabitant of Carthage; akin to Greek Phoinix Phoenician

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Eqwesh, Lukka, Shekelesh, Sherden, Teresh 

who were all these peoples ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

That’s the big question…

I think the only definitive one is the Lukka…at the time of the Sea People attack the Hittite King says his ships are in the Lukka lands…making him helpless…so my guess is that maybe the Lukka actually used the Hittite ships to attack them and Egypt.

By one hundred years later from 1274..1174BC is the time of the Sea People attacks, after they had turned against the Hittites.

”Soldiers from the Lukka lands fought on the Hittite side in the famous Battle of Kadesh (c. 1274 BC) against the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramesses II. A century later, the Lukka had turned against the Hittites. The Hittite king Suppiluliuma II tried in vain to defeat the Lukka. They contributed to the collapse of the Hittite Empire.^{[citation needed]}

The Lukka are also known from texts in Ancient Egypt as one of the tribes of the Sea Peoples, who invaded Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean in the 12th century BC.^[2][5]”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

Faithless, treacherous….could be the actual meaning of Phoenicians….nothing to do the murex shell…or red or purple.

That was the opinion of the Romans, their enemies...

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

The word “Punic” is Latin.

Of course it is.

But the Phoenicians were around long before the Romans even were an enitity.

I go for the Hebrew etymology; the Hebrew and Phoenicians were close kin, and so were their languages.

[The Puzzler]

5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Of course it is.

But the Phoenicians were around long before the Romans even were an enitity.

I go for the Hebrew etymology; the Hebrew and Phoenicians were close kin, and so were their languages.

What’s the Hebrew etymology? Men/people of the lowlands…? ……..

”The native name of Phoenicia was Kendan (Canaan) or Kna, signifying Lowland, so named in contrast to the adjoining Aram, i.e., Highland, the Hebrew name of ...” 

The Latin words of Greek origin were only adjusted to their own language,  not created differently in context.

BUT somehow I could see Greek version and fenkui etc etc being relative, maybe rather than what I linked….or red, purple…to the people of the lowlands….the fens lol 

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, The Puzzler said:

What’s the Hebrew etymology? Men/people of the lowlands…? ……..

 

Hmm.. you already responded to that post:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/10/#comment-7562018

And yes, Canaan did mean something like "low land".

No much 'fens' in ancient Canaan I assume, heh.

Edited to add:

Wiki:

The etymology is uncertain. An early explanation derives the term from the Semitic root knʿ, "to be low, humble, subjugated".^[12] Some scholars have suggested that this implies an original meaning of "lowlands", in contrast with Aram, which would then mean "highlands",^[13]

Edited April 15, 2023 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Hmm.. you already responded to that post:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/10/#comment-7562018

And yes, Canaan did mean something like "low land".

No much 'fens' in ancient Canaan I assume, heh.

 

I knew you’d get me on that..no fens as we know them….but at 1200BC…maybe there was.

Even if not, it was a joke, hence my lol….but lowlands, for sure.

The real point here is the name PHoenician in Hebrew etymology meant lowland.

Much like the Netherlands I imagine…..should I lol again….? lol

 

[Abramelin]

1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

The real point here is the name PHoenician in Hebrew etymology meant lowland.

Much like the Netherlands I imagine…..should I lol again….? lol

No, the name Phoenician/Punic had a different etymology.

It's what they called themselves, Kh'nn, or Canaan-ites that means lowland.

Yep "Netherlands"...

[The Puzzler]

18 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Hmm.. you already responded to that post:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/360724-sea-peoples-and-the-phoenicians-a-critical-turning-point-in-history/page/10/#comment-7562018

And yes, Canaan did mean something like "low land".

No much 'fens' in ancient Canaan I assume, heh.

 

That was a different response. What did fenkui mean…men of the lowlands. It’s just odd how fen is in the world….which is a low land area. Where’s Alewyn when I need him? 

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

5 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

No, the name Phoenician/Punic had a different etymology.

It's what they called themselves, Kh'nn, or Canaan-ites that means lowland.

Yep "Netherlands"...

But does it really have a different etymologY?  All words are concepts, like the PHoenician alphabet into Greek…..the concept is always the same, the pronunciation of the word changes, depending on the word for the concept…

alpha, ox, beta, house, delta door, opening, camel, I mean gimel,….it’s all the same, even within seemingly unassociated languages.

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

29 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

That was a different response. What did fenkui mean…men of the lowlands. It’s just odd how fen is in the world….which is a low land area. Where’s Alewyn when I need him? 

Fenkui or whatever must have been a borrowing from the Greeks.

Foiniki was the word in Greek as far as I remember, and it looks a lot like the later Roman Punic. And thàt was - according to me - a borrowing from the Hebrews ('ponim', or an abbreviation of the Phoenician 'Thanit PHANE Ba'al') who often traveled with the Phoenicians.

It had, however, nothing to do with 'low lands'. Thàt etymology belongs to Canaan, or Kh'nn.

[Antigonos]

Φοινικκικος is the modern Greek term. It may be different in ancient Greek.

[The Puzzler]

27 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Fenkui or whatever must have been a borrowing from the Greeks.

Foiniki was the word in Greek as far as I remember, and it looks a lot like the later Roman Punic. And thàt was - according to me - a borrowing from the Hebrews ('ponim', or an abbreviation of the Phoenician 'Thanit PHANE Ba'al') who often traveled with the Phoenicians.

It had, however, nothing to do with 'low lands'. Thàt etymology belongs to Canaan, or Kh'nn.

Fenkui may have been a borrowing from the Greeks….but that was my point, do you really think Egyptians took on a Greek variation of the name…or is the term PHoenician really the same as the term for Canaanites….people of the low lands….seems likely to me. This is how people are named, not people of the red shell they trade…imo That’s why I used Netherlands as an example…people of the low lands. 

Canaanite is the same word…PHoenician. In context. The word fen can be related to the Veneti…people who lived in  low lands, areas. the word is the same, just different variations. Ven, fen, phen, to Canaan…Kh’nn…sounds like a version of fen to me….say it again Kh’nn….

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Antigonos]

2 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Fenkui may have been a borrowing from the Greeks….but that was my point, do you really think Egyptians took on a Greek variation of the name

They may have at some point during the three hundred year era of Ptolemaic rule. 

[Abramelin]

6 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Fenkui may have been a borrowing from the Greeks….but that was my point, do you really think Egyptians took on a Greek variation of the name…or is the term PHoenician really the same as the term for Canaanites….people of the low lands….seems likely to me. This is how people are named, not people of the red shell they trade…imo That’s why I used Netherlands as an example…people of the low lands. 

Canaanite is the same word…PHoenician. In context. The word fen can be related to the Veneti…people who lived in  low lands, areas. the word is the same, just different variations. Ven, fen, phen, to Canaan…Kh’nn…sounds like a version of fen to me….say it again Kh’nn….

Hmmmm....

Reread, please, what I posted about the etymology of "Canaan" and "Punic" .

 

Anyway, this will not bring us any further in the investigation about why the Phoenicians stayed out of harm's way during the raids of the Sea Peoples.

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Hmmmm....

Reread, please, what I posted about the etymology of "Canaan" and "Punic" .

 

Anyway, this will not bring us any further in the investigation about why the Phoenicians stayed out of harm's way during the raids of the Sea Peoples.

That’s true, it won’t.

My first answer was my answer. They were allies of the Sea People but not part of the invasions.

[The Puzzler]

14 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

They may have at some point during the three hundred year era of Ptolemaic rule. 

Well, yes.