Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[Antigonos]

4 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

 

Desparate people do desparate things, and attacking a country already troubled by many conflicts but also known for its riches could have been a target.

Absolutely. Look at what Alaric and the Goths did to Rome.

[The Puzzler]

10 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I think it hàs something to do with the Sea People, as long as we assume 'it' started somewhere in northern Europe, and then spreaded south and east.

People went on the move for gods know what reason. They knew - like Antigonos explained - of the situation in the Hittite empire, the one they knew from its riches.

Desparate people do desparate things, and attacking a country already troubled by many conflicts but also known for its riches could have been a target.

This is ridiculous…3 days later…..lol

OK, say it was relative, so what? It didn’t offer much insight….and the Northern Europeans are another story than internal Mesopotamia strife.

 

[Abramelin]

3 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Herodotus mentions how the Phoenicians, upon arrival in Tyre immediately began trade with the Assyrians….but anyway…

I discovered that they were at variance with the Greeks, because they said that the temple had been built when Tyre had been founded, and that this happened 2,300 years ago.

https://www.livius.org/sources/content/herodotus/herodotus-on-the-temple-of-melqart/

https://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Herodotus/2a*.html#44

And that's 2,300 years BEFORE Herodotus.

So around 2,700 yr BCE.

 

Assyria was a major ancient Mesopotamian civilization which existed as a city-state from the 21st century BC to the 14th century BC, then to a territorial state, and eventually an empire from the 14th century BC to the 7th century BC.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria

 

Edited March 16 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

.and the Northern Europeans are another story than internal Mesopotamia strife.

It was about the Hittites. Not Mesopotamia.

[Antigonos]

8 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

This is ridiculous…3 days later…..lol

OK, say it was relative, so what? It didn’t offer much insight….and the Northern Europeans are another story than internal Mesopotamia strife.

 

There was no major internal Mesopotamian strife ever from the earliest Ubaid culture to Akkad or to Sumer and Elam, or later to Assyria and Babylon.

[Antigonos]

On 2/7/2024 at 6:01 AM, docyabut2 said:

 

Edited March 16 by Antigonos

[Abramelin]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:51 PM, atalante said:

Puzzler,

This small date range (1198-1196 C) for collapse of the Hittite capital city ties together nicely with an 1192 C date for destruction of Ugarit by the Sea Peoples.  Ugarit had been part of the Hittite empire.  So instability within the empire would be an opportune time to invade Ugarit. 

Thanks Atalante.

[docyabut2]

 

The Mediterranean nearly dried up. A cataclysmic flood?

[Doug1066]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:57 AM, The Puzzler said:

And how bout the paintings in Sweden being 25 metres higher now than when they were drawn…or was that feet?…Anyway whichever it was, that’s a huge sea level drop, the sea was that much higher, just in the Bronze Age…

imagine it getting so much colder, the sea level dropped by that much…

So, it wasn’t flooding, it was receding water, as it got colder…exposing land where ocean had been…this in itself, could have caused all sorts of issues, loss of harbours, inability to sail areas they once had, loss of resources, cold, damp former land, bogs, brings sickness, darkness, famine, migrations…

Isostatic rebound.

Doug

[docyabut2]

The reasons for the catastrophic and wide spread political as well as physical collapse in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean areas that define the end of the Bronze age ca. 1225 BC to 1175 BC remain a major enigma. It has been attributed by historian to attacks by outsiders with the most favored group being the (enigmatic) so-called sea people. Unfortunately there is no real evidence for this

.s. This would suggest that a major ‘‘earthquake storm'' may have occurred in the Late Bronze Age Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean during the years 1225-1175 . This ‘‘storm'' may have interacted with societal, political and economic forces at work in these areas c. 1200 

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009EGUGA..11.3280N/abstract

 

 

Edited March 16 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

 

today many historians and Archeaologists have proposed several reasons why the Western Aegean and the Near East was thrust into a dark age.

The main reasons put forth are:

1)Volcanic eruptions
2) Earthquakes
3) Climate change
4)Human migration
5) Social disintegration

 

The influence of climatic change on the Late Bronze Age Collapse and the Greek Dark Ages

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440312000416

 

 

 

Edited March 16 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

 

The Mediterranean nearly dried up. A cataclysmic flood?

May the gods have mercy on your pour soul.

Docy, that happened 5 million years ago!!!

 

These are your 'Sea People' of 5 million years ago:

🤣

Edited March 16 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

30 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

The reasons for the catastrophic and wide spread political as well as physical collapse in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean areas that define the end of the Bronze age ca. 1225 BC to 1175 BC remain a major enigma. It has been attributed by historian to attacks by outsiders with the most favored group being the (enigmatic) so-called sea people. Unfortunately there is no real evidence for this

.s. This would suggest that a major ‘‘earthquake storm'' may have occurred in the Late Bronze Age Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean during the years 1225-1175 . This ‘‘storm'' may have interacted with societal, political and economic forces at work in these areas c. 1200 

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009EGUGA..11.3280N/abstract

 

 

Already posted.

[docyabut2]

Sorry all but just trying to find out what cause a catastrophic and the collapse of the civilizations and started the sea peoples

Edited March 16 by docyabut2

[The Puzzler]

12 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

Isostatic rebound.

Doug

Quite true…but the geological conditions would be the same…land drying up, becoming uplifted and risen, so the sea was now lower…

These changes were not lost on the first hand people.

[The Puzzler]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It was about the Hittites. Not Mesopotamia.

So you don’t think the Assyrians taking over Babylon affected the Hittite Empire? 
Each of these powerful kingdoms had their own political agendas…each affecting the others. 

[The Puzzler]

12 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

today many historians and Archeaologists have proposed several reasons why the Western Aegean and the Near East was thrust into a dark age.

The main reasons put forth are:

1)Volcanic eruptions
2) Earthquakes
3) Climate change
4)Human migration
5) Social disintegration

 

The influence of climatic change on the Late Bronze Age Collapse and the Greek Dark Ages

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440312000416

 

 

 

All of these things probably occurred, as Plato tells us…the Hellenes remembered the PHaethon myth….a time of cataclysm. Does it equate to this time period? Seemingly but maybe not. 

[The Puzzler]

14 hours ago, Antigonos said:

Absolutely. Look at what Alaric and the Goths did to Rome.

I know, I love the story/history of how Alaric and his Goths fell Rome. Payback time.

How different our World would have been without Alaric.

Edited March 17 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Thanks Atalante.

For what? The small date range? Which doesn’t include the date of what you thought was relevant to the Sea People…admit it, you know that 1390BC has nothing to do with any Sea People event including any attacks on Ugarit. It’s 1150BC we are looking at here. The mentions in the text spoken of in this topic, .belong to 200 years before a Sea People attack…the Hittites were sitting ducks their whole time and reign, internal rebellions, outside rebellions, Egyptian, Assyrian, Aramean…no one liked them…

 

Edited March 17 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

24 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

For what? The small date range? Which doesn’t include the date of what you thought was relevant to the Sea People…admit it, you know that 1390BC has nothing to do with any Sea People event including any attacks on Ugarit. It’s 1150BC we are looking at here. The mentions in the text spoken of in this topic, .belong to 200 years before a Sea People attack…the Hittites were sitting ducks their whole time and reign, internal rebellions, outside rebellions, Egyptian, Assyrian, Aramean…no one liked them…

 

It's about instability in the Hittite empire. And that instability lasted for more than a couple of ages.

[The Puzzler]

2 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

It's about instability in the Hittite empire. And that instability lasted for more than a couple of ages.

True. I think they were a very unstable “empire”.

it’s possible they aligned with mainland Greeks too much and this also contributes to their downfall…we don’t see too much about it but imo there was certainly Hittite to Mycenaean influence and trade..Mycenae fell because the Hittites fell…or did the Hittites fall because Mycenae fell…? all like dominoes, one felling the next one down.

[Abramelin]

12 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

True. I think they were a very unstable “empire”.

it’s possible they aligned with mainland Greeks too much and this also contributes to their downfall…we don’t see too much about it but imo there was certainly Hittite to Mycenaean influence and trade..Mycenae fell because the Hittites fell…or did the Hittites fall because Mycenae fell…? all like dominoes, one felling the next one down.

The story about Troy may not even be  Mycenaean, originally:

 

For thousands of years, Homer's Iliad and Odyssey were the oldest epic stories that Europeans know of. But is it possible that Homer was, in turn, influenced by the stories of other civilizations to the east of Greece? We are joined by Mary Bachvarova, an expert on both the ancient Greek and Hittite traditions, to explore this fascinating question. This is episode 42 of the "Ancient Greece Declassified" podcast. For the complete list of episodes (in audio form) visit http://greecepodcast.com

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From Hittite to Homer: The Anatolian Background of Ancient Greek Epic

Mary R. Bachvarova

This book provides a groundbreaking reassessment of the prehistory of Homeric epic. It argues that in the Early Iron Age bilingual poets transmitted to the Greeks a set of narrative traditions closely related to the one found at Bronze-Age Hattusa, the Hittite capital. Key drivers for Near Eastern influence on the developing Homeric tradition were the shared practices of supralocal festivals and venerating divinized ancestors, and a shared interest in creating narratives about a legendary past using a few specific storylines: theogonies, genealogies connecting local polities, long-distance travel, destruction of a famous city because it refuses to release captives, and trying to overcome death when confronted with the loss of a dear companion. Professor Bachvarova concludes by providing a fresh explanation of the origins and significance of the Greco-Anatolian legend of Troy, thereby offering a new solution to the long-debated question of the historicity of the Trojan War.

https://books.google.nl/books/about/From_Hittite_to_Homer.html?id=wxd-CwAAQBAJ&source=kp_book_description&redir_esc=y

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/from-hittite-to-homer/36829C2F85CAA9115CA281AD635C3E32

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A review:

https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2016/2016.11.14/

Edited March 17 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Oh wow, will read!

[The Puzzler]

Okely dokely….wasted a good 100 minutes there…hmm…what to make of it……the obvious?

 

[Doug1066]

On 3/17/2024 at 2:24 AM, The Puzzler said:

so the sea was now lower…

Relative to the adjacent land, yes.  In absolute terms, no.

Doug