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Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History


Abramelin

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15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Post that in the Doggerland thread, and I will reply.

I don't care whether you reply.

Doug

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Doug1066 said:

1- That first post mentions Atlantis.

2- Carthage was founded by Phoenicians.

3- Are you trying to say that this thread has nothing to do with Phoenicians?

 

4- I have long surmised that  Philistines = Pelest = Palestinians = Sea People.

Doug

1- Indeed. People 'find' Atlantis everywhere. But it was nothing but a mentioning of Atlantis.

It's getting boring.

2- I know, and that fact has nothing to do with the attacks of the Sea People which took place long before Carthage was settled.

3- It IS about Phoenicians, and about the question why they were able to stay out of harms way during the attacks of the Sea People.

4- Read the thread. You're not the only one.

Edited by Abramelin
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On 3/19/2024 at 4:04 PM, Doug1066 said:

I don't care whether you reply.

Doug

You once started a thread about the true date of the Biblical Flood. You posted the results of your investigations, and it was an interesting read.

Now suppose someone starts questioning the ethnicity of Noah, and/or his sons, and then your thread deviates for pages on end without adressing the topic.

You'd be happy with that derailment of the thread you started?

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54 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

You once started a thread about the true date of the Biblical Flood. You posted the results of your investigations, and it was an interesting read.

Now suppose someone starts questioning the ethnicity of Noah, and/or his sons, and then your thread deviates for pages on end without adressing the topic.

You'd be happy with that derailment of the thread you started?

That's a fact of life on UM.  I learned to put up with it.

Why are you continuing this irrelevant line of questioning?

Doug

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Posted (edited)
39 minutes ago, Doug1066 said:

That's a fact of life on UM.  I learned to put up with it.

Why are you continuing this irrelevant line of questioning?

Doug

To make it perfectly clear: I truelly hate derailments of threads I started.

Edited to add:

Even in threads I didn't start, I often say, "Ok, let's get back on topic".

Edited by Abramelin
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Let's get back on topic.

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  • 1 month later...
7 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I can’t remember if I’ve seen these two double outside looking bird items from Scandinavia before…

https://www.academia.edu/24174809/Scandinavian_Background_of_Greek_Mythic_Cosmography_The_Sun_s_Water_Transport

IMG_1515.png

IMG_1516.jpeg

The Amber Road was active during the Neolithic, maybe earlier and it's well known the Nordic Bronze Age had Mediterranean ties. But the Proto Indo-Europeans were Sun Worshippers so it was a "common origin" thing there.

The goose symbolism is Uralic/ Steppe though.

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5 hours ago, Piney said:

The Amber Road was active during the Neolithic, maybe earlier and it's well known the Nordic Bronze Age had Mediterranean ties. But the Proto Indo-Europeans were Sun Worshippers so it was a "common origin" thing there.

The goose symbolism is Uralic/ Steppe though.

Yes, it’s to do with the double bird head boats used by the Sea People…

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

Yes, it’s to do with the double bird head boats used by the Sea People…

Unfortunately, most Mycenaean era ships did not have bird heads on their prow.

 https://www.academia.edu/1476176/Yasur_Landau_A_2010_On_Birds_and_Dragons_A_Note_on_the_Sea_Peoples_and_Mycenaean_Ships_In_Cohen_Y_Gilan_A_and_Miller_J_L_eds_Pax_Hethitica_Studies_on_the_Hittites_and_their_Neighbours_in_Honor_of_Itamar_Singer_Wiesbaden_399_410

Edited by atalante
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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, atalante said:

These are not Mycenaean. Here’s another one I found. They are European double bird head ship images.

Looking for the two bird heads looking out from either side, as the ones I linked.

This Villanovan funerary urn has one too, exactly like the one in Denmark. It’s right down the bottom.

IMG_1525.jpeg

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Piney said:

The Amber Road was active during the Neolithic, maybe earlier and it's well known the Nordic Bronze Age had Mediterranean ties. But the Proto Indo-Europeans were Sun Worshippers so it was a "common origin" thing there.

The goose symbolism is Uralic/ Steppe though.

Geese are found in Etruscan symbology a lot too.

This is one of my fave mirrors with all the characters, even Menelaus paying Helen money, the goose is behind, on end, up top.

IMG_1526.gif

Edited by The Puzzler
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It seems more and more likely the bird headed boats of the Sea People were European. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)
On 7/10/2023 at 7:16 PM, Abramelin said:

Another quote:

It’s either an intricate forgery, or the archaeological find of the decade. A team of scholars of the ancient Luwian language have deciphered a 29-meter-long hieroglyphic inscription from the Late Bronze Age more than 3,000 years ago, which is the only contemporary account of the fall of the Hittite Empire and the rapacious conquering of the biblical “Sea Peoples” as far south as Ashkelon.

And the back story of what may prove to be a missing link in the understanding of Levantine civilization is equally interesting.

Only in June of this year, Swiss geoarcheologist Dr. Eberhard Zangger, president of the Luwian Studies foundation, was made aware of a 15-centimeter stack of documents — illustrations and translation notes — about the limestone frieze which was originally found in 1878 in the village of Beyköy, approximately 34 kilometers north of Afyonkarahisar in modern Turkey.

Does anyone here have a link to a better site about that Hittite hieroglyphic inscription?

I don't think Mellaart was a fraud. He copied the script from some photo (?) of a rock wall inscripted in a language - Luwian - he knew nothing about.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/history-articles/stone-inscription-troy-42342/

 

An interview with Woudhuizen:

https://luwianstudies.org/interview-fred-woudhuizen-question-whether-hieroglyphic-inscription-beykoy-might-forged/

Wiki about Woudhuizen:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Woudhuizen

 

I assume the whole of that Luwian text about the confederation of sea peoples must be translated by now.

Anyone?

Edited by Abramelin
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45 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I don't think Mellaart was a fraud. He copied the script from some photo (?) of a rock wall inscripted in a language - Luwian - he knew nothing about.

https://www.zmescience.com/science/history-articles/stone-inscription-troy-42342/

 

An interview with Woudhuizen:

https://luwianstudies.org/interview-fred-woudhuizen-question-whether-hieroglyphic-inscription-beykoy-might-forged/

Wiki about Woudhuizen:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Woudhuizen

 

I assume the whole of that Luwian text about the confederation of sea peoples must be translated by now.

Anyone?

Smithsonian had a article on the Luwian account of the Sea Peoples and Luwian Studies.Org might still be around.

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20 minutes ago, Piney said:

Smithsonian had a article on the Luwian account of the Sea Peoples and Luwian Studies.Org might still be around.

I'll try to find it.

It would be the only account, aside of Medinet Habu and Ugarit (or was it Byblos??) that tells us about those sea raids in the Med near the end of the Bronze Age.

 

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10 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I'll try to find it.

It would be the only account, aside of Medinet Habu and Ugarit (or was it Byblos??) that tells us about those sea raids in the Med near the end of the Bronze Age.

 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/3200-year-old-inscription-lost-language-and-lot-doubt-180965244/

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/inscription-deciphered-luwian-turkey-troy

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Posted (edited)
On 5/2/2024 at 7:09 AM, The Puzzler said:

.......Here’s another one I found. They are European double bird head ship images.

Looking for the two bird heads looking out from either side, as the ones I linked.

This Villanovan funerary urn has one too, exactly like the one in Denmark. It’s right down the bottom.

IMG_1525.jpeg

Homer's Phaeacians (and their city-state Scheria) may have been a Minoan colony at Corfu (Corcyra) in the Adriatic sea --- near the place where the Amber Road reached the Mediteranean Sea.

from https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-quarterly/article/abs/scheria-of-the-odyssey/08864F0E8D99D1016825B9EBFCD86AF6

I shall endeavour to show that Homer describes a real people, and that Scheria can be fitted into the Mediterranean world, as we now know it, of the latest Minoan or Mycenaean period, and is in fact a Minoan settlement in Corcyra.

 

From a different link, Ptolemy's map (2nd century AD) seems to show tribes related to Shardana and Shekesh (sea peoples) near Corfu (Corcyra), but on the mainland of Illyria.  https://cogniarchae.com/2018/07/01/origins-of-the-sea-peoples-the-sherden-the-shekelesh-the-peleset/

mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcogniarchae.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F06%2Fsardiotae-siculotae.jpg&t=1717236936&ymreqid=3453cafd-c5bc-1b5b-2c0a-d1008b010000&sig=JABfCjxSyvydW7AB92G8tA--~D

 

 

Edited by atalante
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, atalante said:

Homer's Phaeacians (and their city-state Scheria) may have been a Minoan colony at Corfu (Corcyra) in the Adriatic sea --- near the place where the Amber Road reached the Mediteranean Sea.

from https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/classical-quarterly/article/abs/scheria-of-the-odyssey/08864F0E8D99D1016825B9EBFCD86AF6

I shall endeavour to show that Homer describes a real people, and that Scheria can be fitted into the Mediterranean world, as we now know it, of the latest Minoan or Mycenaean period, and is in fact a Minoan settlement in Corcyra.

 

From a different link, Ptolemy's map (2nd century AD) seems to show tribes related to Shardana and Shekesh (sea peoples) near Corfu (Corcyra), but on the mainland of Illyria.  https://cogniarchae.com/2018/07/01/origins-of-the-sea-peoples-the-sherden-the-shekelesh-the-peleset/

mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcogniarchae.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F06%2Fsardiotae-siculotae.jpg&t=1717236936&ymreqid=3453cafd-c5bc-1b5b-2c0a-d1008b010000&sig=JABfCjxSyvydW7AB92G8tA--~D

 

 

The map supposedly shows the Shardana according to your source.

But I think you/your source are/is wrong:

Screenshot_20240601-174703_Firefox.thumb.jpg.0a21e76d9482a1f2bb64ec15d9b9faad.jpg

It shows an island called, "Scardona" or "Seardona".

And it looks nothing like Sardinia.

Edited by Abramelin
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5 hours ago, atalante said:

Homer's Phaeacians''   (and their city-state Scheria) may have been a Minoan colony at Corfu (Corcyra) in the Adriatic sea --- near the place where the Amber Road reached the Mediteranean Sea.

And how does your source explain that the Phaeacians had ships that were steered using thought only?

 

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The map supposedly shows the Shardana according to your source.

But I think you/your source are/is wrong:

Screenshot_20240601-174703_Firefox.thumb.jpg.0a21e76d9482a1f2bb64ec15d9b9faad.jpg

It shows an island called, "Scardona" or "Seardona".

And it looks nothing like Sardinia.

Abramelin,

The people names resembling Sea Seoples groups are underlined with orange marking.  And like I posted, they are on the mainland, NOT an island.

mail?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcogniarchae.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F06%2Fsardiotae-siculotae.jpg&t=1717236936&ymreqid=3453cafd-c5bc-1b5b-2c0a-d1008b010000&sig=JABfCjxSyvydW7AB92G8tA--~D

Edited by atalante
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And how does your source explain that the Phaeacians had ships that were steered using thought only?

 

Abramelin,

The article by A. Shewan was published in 1919.  He probably did not know about navigating with "brailed sails" instead of rudders.  Modern writers tend to accept that the Sea Peoples used a superior new type of sails, brailed sails.  (So Homer could use poetic license to say that the Phaeacian ships, with newly-invented brailed sails, could steer themselves using thoughts only.)

Shewan proposed that the Minoans, in the earlier era of shore-hugging sailing, would have used Corcyra as their next stopping point toward the west, after Ithaca. 

 

from:  https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/263076.pdf

It need not surprise us if we hear of a Minoan settlement in Corcyra. I have already argued that the island could not have been overlooked. It would be "useful for the coasting voyage to Sicily." See Burrows (p. 13, and p. 208, n. 6) on the possibility of "genuine Minoan traditions in the island." Corcyra would in fact be the Minoan traders' next landing-place after leaving Ithaka, which was the final port of call in Greece, on the voyage to the west, like Sicily and Sardinia farther on (Peet, ut supra, p. 420). Cf. Thompson on Leukas in Liverpool Annals (IV, 133). A Minoan settlement would be inevitable in an island so attractive and so incomparably situated as Corcyra.

Edited by atalante
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Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

And how does your source explain that the Phaeacians had ships that were steered using thought only?

 

They knew where they were going…..how did Homer “write” The Iliad if he was a blind bard…questions, questions…

Edited by The Puzzler
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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, atalante said:

Abramelin,

The article by A. Shewan was published in 1919.  He probably did not know about navigating with "brailed sails" instead of rudders.  Modern writers tend to accept that the Sea Peoples used a superior new type of sails, brailed sails.  (So Homer could use poetic license to say that the Phaeacian ships, with newly-invented brailed sails, could steer themselves using thoughts only.)

Shewan proposed that the Minoans, in the earlier era of shore-hugging sailing, would have used Corcyra as their next stopping point toward the west, after Ithaca. 

 

from:  https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/263076.pdf

It need not surprise us if we hear of a Minoan settlement in Corcyra. I have already argued that the island could not have been overlooked. It would be "useful for the coasting voyage to Sicily." See Burrows (p. 13, and p. 208, n. 6) on the possibility of "genuine Minoan traditions in the island." Corcyra would in fact be the Minoan traders' next landing-place after leaving Ithaka, which was the final port of call in Greece, on the voyage to the west, like Sicily and Sardinia farther on (Peet, ut supra, p. 420). Cf. Thompson on Leukas in Liverpool Annals (IV, 133). A Minoan settlement would be inevitable in an island so attractive and so incomparably situated as Corcyra.

I like these thoughts…the Adriatic has been underlooked. the sea people even look like those who would have come from there. (In my mind) 

We hear very little of these countries, even now, in the news, the only thing I know is Kosovo had a terrible war with Bosnia and Serbia, I know Melania Trump is from Slovakia…and I’m quite well read…. all these places we know VERY LITTLE of….BUT yes, it was part of the Po Valley….the places Etruscans started from, the area the amber came to, the Western areas of Greece hold the secrets of all of the Gracae. I couldn’t stop reading of Illyrians, Googling the Adriatic. The old stories of Poseidon from there, between Italy and Greece, from Central Europe, very old indeed. This is very interesting.

We have the Polish Lusatian people, the Slavics, Slovakians…the myth of Phaethon, in the Po, possibly from Estonia…travelled down…maybe we are indeed missing something here that ties it all together. 

Edited by The Puzzler
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2 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

They knew where they were going…..how did Homer “write” The Iliad if he was a blind bard…questions, questions…

That's because he didn't write it. It was put on paper much later.

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