Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Hmmmm....

Reread, please, what I posted about the etymology of "Canaan" and "Punic" .

 

Anyway, this will not bring us any further in the investigation about why the Phoenicians stayed out of harm's way during the raids of the Sea Peoples.

That’s true, it won’t.

My first answer was my answer. They were allies of the Sea People but not part of the invasions.

[The Puzzler]

14 minutes ago, Antigonos said:

They may have at some point during the three hundred year era of Ptolemaic rule. 

Well, yes.

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

That’s true, it won’t.

My first answer was my answer. They were allies of the Sea People but not part of the invasions.

And I wonder about that: why would the Phoenicians support the attack of the Sea Peoples on Egypt, and at the same time Egypt being their main trading destination?

[The Puzzler]

7 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

And I wonder about that: why would the Phoenicians support the attack of the Sea Peoples on Egypt, and at the same time Egypt being their main trading destination?

I personally think Egypt was being too heavy handed in claiming the area they claimed as theirs. The Phoenicians had plenty of trading partners, I don’t think Egypt was a big deal trading partner to them. They were after much greener fields. Egypt offered them little.
In fact Herodotus states they first started trading with Assyria.

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Egypt offered them little.

They copied Egyptian gods, they copied Egyptian habits of burrying their dead.

They had traded with Egypt for more than two millennia.

[The Puzzler]

11 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

They copied Egyptian gods, they copied Egyptian habits of burrying their dead.

They had traded with Egypt for more than I don’t see Baal in Egyptian religion but anyway….

I don’t see Baal in Egyptian mythology, I dont see any PHoenician God in Egyptian mythology, or visa versa, maybe you know something I don’t.

And, At 1200BC I don’t see them trading with Egypt for two millenia prior to that time.

And things change in an instance either way,.

The Lukka and the Hittites are proof of that. The Hittites had their ships in Lukka….but Lukka was a Sea People ally.

It’s all too late. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

3 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

It’s all too late. 

It is.

I'll reply to you when you wake up next morning.

[atalante]

22 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Eqwesh, Lukka, Shekelesh, Sherden, Teresh 

who were all these peoples ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

A more intriguing group of Sea Peoples is the 1176 BC group of invaders, whom Greek epics considered to be Greeks.  

 

A late phase (ca 1176 BCE) of Egypt's Sea Peoples era involved 4 of the Sea Peoples' names that had NOT attacked Egypt (in Egyptian writings) before the reign of Ramsess III -- the Denyen, Tjekker, Peleset, and Weshesh  (reference, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Primary_documentary_records )

Greek myths about events ca. 1176 BCE had 3 clearly cognate endonyms related to Egypt's sea peoples -- the Greek names  Danaoi, Teucer, and Pleisthenes.  And Greco-Roman myths also discussed a 4th cognate person, Ulysses (Odysseus), whose name was cognate with Egypt's Weshesh sea peoples name.   note: Egyptian language had no sound for the letter L, so the name Ulysses was cognate with the Egyptian name Weshesh. 

Homer used the name Danaoi to represent the Greeks in general; the Greek name Danaoi corresponds to Egypt's Denyen.

Mythical Greek Teucer colonized Cyprus after the end of the legendary Trojan War.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teucer The Greek name Teucer corresponds to Egypt's Tjekker.

The Greek name Pleisthenes corresponds to Egypt's name Peleset. 

 

The Greek biography for Pleisthenes sheds some light on various activities in the Sea Peoples era.  One of the Greek characters named Pleisthenes was the son of an emergency royal marriage between Atreus and Aerope, from the ruling houses of Mycenae and Crete -- a mythical marriage that occurred after Crete's king Minos, together with virtually all of Crete's navy, perished suddenly when Minoans interacted with a ruler of Sicily.  

Sicily itself is a cognate of the Egyptian Sea Peoples name Shekelesh.  Presumably, some classical era Greeks were using their mythical biography (about Pleisthenes) to indicate that Egypt's Shekelesh (Sicilians) had been a powerful, perhaps superior, military threat to both Cretans and Mycenaeans.  Egypt's Shekelesh had attacked Egypt ca 1208 BCE in the reign of Merenptah; but the Shekelesh were not named in the 1176 BCE invasion of Egypt during the reign of Ramesses III.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Primary_documentary_records 

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by atalante

[Antigonos]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

 

The Greek biography for Pleisthenes sheds some light on various activities in the Sea Peoples era.  One of the Greek characters named Pleisthenes was the son of an emergency royal marriage between Atreus and Aerope, from the ruling houses of Mycenae and Crete -- a mythical marriage that occurred after Crete's king Minos, together with virtually all of Crete's navy, perished suddenly when Minoans interacted with a ruler of Sicily.  

Sicily itself is a cognate of the Egyptian Sea Peoples name Shekelesh.  Presumably, some classical era Greeks were using their mythical biography (about Pleisthenes) to indicate that Egypt's Shekelesh (Sicilians) had been a powerful, perhaps superior, military threat to both Cretans and Mycenaeans.  Egypt's Shekelesh had attacked Egypt ca 1208 BCE in the reign of Merenptah; but the Shekelesh were not named in the 1176 BCE invasion of Egypt during the reign of Ramesses III.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Primary_documentary_records 

 

 

Sicily itself began being colonized by archaic Greeks in the 8th century BC centuries prior to the classical era.

[docyabut2]

 I have to agree with someone here ,the Phoenicians s were the only sea people that .control  the med  sea. They came out of their cities and colonies  along the sea coasts to take out the Hittes and Egypt gave them some land when they attack them and all the other sea peoples were all just captures by the Phoenicians.

 

[Abramelin]

5 hours ago, atalante said:

Egyptian language had no sound for the letter L, so the name Ulysses was cognate with the Egyptian name Weshesh. 

The Egyptians had 1 hieroglyph for the letters L and R. Ulysses would become something like Uryshes.

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

 I have to agree with someone here ,the Phoenicians s were the only sea people that .control  the med  sea. They came out of their cities and colonies  along the sea coasts to take out the Hittes and Egypt gave them some land when they attack them and all the other sea peoples were all just captures by the Phoenicians.

 

You have source for that?

Because it's the first time I ever read about the Phoenicians behaving like that around 1200 BCE.

[Wepwawet]

15 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I don’t see Baal in Egyptian mythology, I dont see any PHoenician God in Egyptian mythology, or visa versa, maybe you know something I don’t.

And, At 1200BC I don’t see them trading with Egypt for two millenia prior to that time.

And things change in an instance either way,.

The Lukka and the Hittites are proof of that. The Hittites had their ships in Lukka….but Lukka was a Sea People ally.

It’s all too late. 

Baal was worshipped in Egypt, as was Hauron. Baal was associated with Set, and Ramesses II associated himself with both gods, and had a statue of himself with Hauron in his falcon form.

The Egyptians had been trading with Byblos since the OK, and Byblos is in what became known as Phoenicia.

The Baal imported from Caanan may be a version of Set, perhaps exported hundreds of years earlier, along with Hathor, to Byblos.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Wepwawet
typo

[The Puzzler]

1 hour ago, Wepwawet said:

Baal was worshipped in Egypt, as was Hauron. Baal was associated with Set, and Ramesses II associated himself with both gods, and had a statue of himself with Hauron in his falcon form.

The Egyptians had been trading with Byblos since the OK, and Byblos is in what became known as Phoenicia.

The Baal imported from Caanan may be a version of Set, perhaps exported hundreds of years earlier, along with Hathor, to Byblos.

Right, I thought it meant, literally Baal…Set, yes.

The foreign God.

Was Ramesses II really a Canaanite I wonder…..

[The Puzzler]

11 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You have source for that?

Because it's the first time I ever read about the Phoenicians behaving like that around 1200 BCE.

I’m at this point too….the Phoenicians only rose at that time, I’m not even sure we can call any pre 1200BC point of that culture Phoenician….

If anything, as I’ve stated numerous times, the people of the areas of Phoenicia in 1150BC, worked the system…by accomodating the Sea People attacks…creating a vacuum for them to become the trading power in the East and then West Mediterranean.

Why did they fall out with the Egyptians…? I explained that also….maybe where the etymology ‘treacherous’ comes from….they were know for this…..the Canaanites of Byblos, Tyre and Sidon were patsies for the Egyptians, they became self-ruled, autonomous, and didn’t care for Egyptian power plays, they cared for money and trade and because the world by this time, as today, is ruled by money, they opted out of the Egyptian side, who offered them nothing but eventual overthrow of this area. The Battle of Kadesh and Hittite alliance from the Egyptians as well as a rising state of Israel, were proof of this. 

[Wepwawet]

10 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Was Ramesses II really a Canaanite I wonder…..

The Year 400 Stela indicates that he may at least have believed that his family was descended from the Hyksos, and being from the Delta this is possible.

[atalante]

3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

The Year 400 Stela indicates that he may at least have believed that his family was descended from the Hyksos, and being from the Delta this is possible.

Wepwawet,

Your link says that the Year 400 Stele commemorated an early Egyptian king (before the Hyksos invasion) who had venerated Seth of Ombos. 

"..... a pharaoh named Aapehtiseth Nubti[1][4] (“Great is the strength of Seth, he of Ombos”)"   

Presumably this explained that Seti I, the father of Rameses II, rejected the Set deity of the Hyksos -- and venerated instead Egypt's pre-Hyksos concept for Set. 

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet,

Your link says that the Year 400 Stele commemorated an early Egyptian king (before the Hyksos invasion) who had venerated Seth of Ombos. 

"..... a pharaoh named Aapehtiseth Nubti[1][4] (“Great is the strength of Seth, he of Ombos”)"   

Presumably this explained that Seti I, the father of Rameses II, rejected the Set deity of the Hyksos -- and venerated instead Egypt's pre-Hyksos concept for Set. 

Allthough Set was not completely persona non grata, it's notable that from Set Peribsen to Seti I, only one king had the name Set, and that was Set Meribre. I would say that due to the murky events of the 2nd Dynasty it was anathema for a king to use Set as a name, and so I think that Seti I, presuming he knew about what happened in the 2nd Dynasty, and we cannot know what they knew of their own history, using Set as a name to "venerate" a pre Hyksos Set would be to reverse the end of the  "Set ascendancy" of the 2nd Dynasty, and I don't think that was his intention. Interestingly, the Year 400 Stela takes us back to just about the reign of Set Meribre in the 13th Dynasty, and not long before the Hyksos arrive, or rise up, depending on your view of how they gained power.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Wepwawet

[The Puzzler]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:33 PM, Wepwawet said:

The Year 400 Stela indicates that he may at least have believed that his family was descended from the Hyksos, and being from the Delta this is possible.

This all got me going….not nec about Ramesses II being a Canaanite but…..

The story of the Hyksos in the Delta at Avaris, having contact with Minoans….with Avaris being a TRADE route to the Levant, how they may have continued on to be Phoenicians…from the trading Canaanite element….that they had ISLANDS in the Nile Delta….that they were eventually perceived as enemies of Egypt….how Ahmose kicked them out eventually…

All this had shades of a similar event with the Sea People….which lends to my original idea…400 years after these events….is that this area lends itself to being similar at the Sea People attacks….not by people of all over the Med. but people close to them, who lived in the same areas, relics of Canaanites from a repeat of history…who allied with Libyans….interesting 

[The Puzzler]

[Wepwawet]

8 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

This all got me going….not nec about Ramesses II being a Canaanite but…..

The story of the Hyksos in the Delta at Avaris, having contact with Minoans….with Avaris being a TRADE route to the Levant, how they may have continued on to be Phoenicians…from the trading Canaanite element….that they had ISLANDS in the Nile Delta….that they were eventually perceived as enemies of Egypt….how Ahmose kicked them out eventually…

All this had shades of a similar event with the Sea People….which lends to my original idea…400 years after these events….is that this area lends itself to being similar at the Sea People attacks….not by people of all over the Med. but people close to them, who lived in the same areas, relics of Canaanites from a repeat of history…who allied with Libyans….interesting 

Despite the Egyptians use of the name Hyksos, and it only appearing in Egyptian usage, I think it safe to say that they knew exactly who they were and were they came from. I think we sometimes tie ourselves in knots over all these names applied to various peoples when the reality may be that, to some extent, they are slang terms, terms of abuse, rather as if in 3,000 years time the only reference in surviving records to Germans was the French insult "Boche", and everybody will scratch their heads wondering who the Boche were. I think the massive expansion into the Levant at the start of the 18th Dynasty is also a clue as too were the Hyksos were from, and the Egyptians were just making sure they never caused them trouble again. Fast forward to the 20th Dynasty and Egyptian control is not what is was, so the sharks circle, though I'm in the camp that thinks there were pressures from further away driving populations into the Levant and to Egypt, and greed, nothing like greed to wage war.

[Thanos5150]

30 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

I think the massive expansion into the Levant at the start of the 18th Dynasty is also a clue as too were the Hyksos were from, and the Egyptians were just making sure they never caused them trouble again. 

One would think the expansion of the Levant into Egypt during the MK and 2IP leading up to Hyksos rule may have been a tip off as well. 

[Wepwawet]

44 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

One would think the expansion of the Levant into Egypt during the MK and 2IP leading up to Hyksos rule may have been a tip off as well. 

In another thread was was some discussion about "The Dialogue of Ipuwer and the Lord of All", and while the work I think can be dismissed as an account of the Hyksos invasion as it is a cautionary tale about how things can go wrong, some parts may perhaps be inspired by events. It does stike me that it is very specific about a serious disruption to trade with Byblos, and Crete for that matter, and I'll quote from the translation by Roland Enmarch.
 

Quote

 

O, yet builders have trained as field labourers:

Those who were with the god's boat are yoked [........]

and no one has travelled north to Byblos today.

What may we do about pines for our mummies,

with whose products priests are buried,

and with the oil whereof the great are embalmed?

From as far as Crete they do not come!

 

It is tempting to read this as inserting real events into the tale, and if it does, then it would be a cause for the Egyptians to take action to secure their trade with Byblos. Perhaps Senusret III moved against the Shechem because they were threatening Byblos, if by causing instability in the region if not direct attack. Ipuwer is also dated, as best it can be, to the reign of Senusret III.

[atalante]

16 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

Despite the Egyptians use of the name Hyksos, and it only appearing in Egyptian usage, I think it safe to say that they knew exactly who they were and were they came from. I think we sometimes tie ourselves in knots over all these names applied to various peoples when the reality may be that, to some extent, they are slang terms, terms of abuse, rather as if in 3,000 years time the only reference in surviving records to Germans was the French insult "Boche", and everybody will scratch their heads wondering who the Boche were. 

The capital city of the First Intermediate Period had a main deity who was a sheep god (Heryshaf).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heryshaf

So the 2nd Intermediate Period could be slandered in Egypt, by nicknaming the 2nd IP as Shepherd Kings, Hyksos.  i.e. a rerun of the First Intermediate Period.

 

[The Puzzler]

22 hours ago, atalante said:

The capital city of the First Intermediate Period had a main deity who was a sheep god (Heryshaf).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heryshaf

So the 2nd Intermediate Period could be slandered in Egypt, by nicknaming the 2nd IP as Shepherd Kings, Hyksos.  i.e. a rerun of the First Intermediate Period.

 

Amun was a Libyan sheep looking God, wasn’t he? 
Maybe he was the real ‘ram in a thicket’……or maybe it was Heryshaf? 
More food for thought atalante.

“The most ancient seat of his worship appears to have been Meroe, where he had a much revered oracle;³ thence it was introduced into Egypt, where the worship took the firmest root at Thebes in Upper Egypt, which was therefore frequently called by the Greeks Diospolis, or the city of Zeus.^4”

^”Herodotus relates a story to account for the ram's head:¹¹ Heracles wanted to see Zeus, but the latter wished to avoid the interview; when, however, Heracles at last had recourse to entreaties, Zeus contrived the following expedient: he cut off the head of a ram, and holding this before his own head, and having covered the remaining part of his body with the skin of the ram, he appeared before Heracles. Hence, Herodotus adds, the Thebans never sacrifice rams except once a year, and on this one occasion they kill and flay a ram, and with its skin they dress the statue of Zeus (Ammon); by the side of this statue they then place that of Heracles.”

^{https://pantheon.org/articles/a/ammon.html}

Jason and the Argonauts, Ethiopians in Colchis…it’s not really relevant, just interesting.

Edited April 19, 2023 by The Puzzler