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Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians: A Critical Turning Point in History


Abramelin

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Hello,

A while ago i began to research many different areas of interest with Chatgpt. It feels like having an army of experts in all possible fields of science and technology, but to the point:

Quote
Mario: There has been identified an European mitochondrial haplogroup, U5b2c1, in the north of Africa, belonging to an ancient Phoenician. Can you tell where the European mitochondrial haplogroup, U5b2c1 came from?
 

Chatgpt: The European mitochondrial haplogroup U5b2c1 is believed to have originated in Europe, specifically in the region that is now Scandinavia, during the Paleolithic era. This haplogroup is found at low frequencies in Europe today, but it has been associated with ancient populations such as the Saami people of northern Scandinavia and the ancient Germanic people.

The presence of the U5b2c1 haplogroup in a Phoenician individual from North Africa suggests that this person may have had European ancestry or that there may have been some gene flow between European and North African populations in the past. However, it is important to note that the presence of a single haplogroup in one individual does not necessarily provide definitive evidence of population migration or intermixing. Further research and genetic analysis would be needed to better understand the origins and distribution of this haplogroup in different populations.

 
Mario: Can you please provide at least ten links to literature related to the topic?
 

Chatgpt: Certainly, here are ten links to literature related to the topic of European mitochondrial haplogroup U5b2c1:

  1. "Genetic evidence for an origin of the Armenians from Bronze Age mixing of multiple populations" by Marc Haber et al. (2015) - https://www.nature.com/articles/ng.3390

  2. "Ancient DNA reveals matrilineal continuity in present-day Poland over the last two millennia" by Alicia R. Martin et al. (2020) - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19036-8

  3. "Mitogenomic diversity in Tatars from the Volga-Ural region of Russia" by Anastasia D. Ignatyeva et al. (2018) - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-28847-9

  4. "The Genetic Legacy of the Expansion of Turkic-Speaking Nomads across Eurasia" by Yunusbayev et al. (2015) - https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(15)00426-8

  5. "Insights into the Genetic History of Jewish Populations from Genome-Wide Association Studies" by Gil Atzmon et al. (2010) - https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(10)00452-3

  6. "Ancient human genomes suggest three ancestral populations for present-day Europeans" by Iosif Lazaridis et al. (2014) - https://www.nature.com/articles/nature13673

  7. "A rare haplogroup of mtDNA identified in the Iranian plateau" by Farnaz Zahrai et al. (2011) - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0026288

  8. "Mitochondrial DNA analysis of the human remains from Zhirendong, South China" by Qiaomei Fu et al. (2013) - https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms3923

  9. "The Genetic Diversity of the Gypsies (Romani People) and the Peopling of Europe" by Cristian Capelli et al. (2001) - https://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(07)63203-6

  10. "The impact of recent events on human genetic diversity" by Mark Stoneking (2000) - https://www.nature.com/articles/35041645

No one really knows where they came from, although they were one of greatest early Mediterranean civilizations. They were known for being great voyagers, and skillful people and which are thought to have created the first Alphabet.

But the reason why i am posting this is really that i think the so called Phoenicians could have been the Finns (Finnish) after all. There are many other reasons, which i am sure Abramelin and others won't agree with, so therefore i leave it there and wait for your enlightened commentaries, before saying anything else...

Quote

[...] we actually know little about the Phoenicians other than what was written about them by the Greeks and Egyptians [1].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880306/

Edited by Mario Dantas
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10 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

Hello,

A while ago i began to research many different areas of interest with Chatgpt. It feels like having an army of experts in all possible fields of science and technology, but to the point:

No one really knows where they came from, although they were one of greatest early Mediterranean civilizations. They were known for being great voyagers, and skillful people and which are thought to have created the first Alphabet.

But the reason why i am posting this is really that i think the so called Phoenicians could have been the Finns (Finnish) after all. There are many other reasons, which i am sure Abramelin and others won't agree with, so therefore i leave it there and wait for your enlightened commentaries, before saying anything else...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4880306/

Hello Mario. And why not?

The Doggerlanders were certainly U5 type….into Saami, Finland and Estonia, a core area is the Franco Cantabrian refuge for the split of U5 to Berber, and Saami…

Phoenicians are Finns, that’s a big Motza ball.

I’ll tell you what I found, the word Mycenae, an apparent non Greek, Pelasgian word, can only be translated into Finnic, using Linear B origin, with a meaning of City of (Death) the dead…lMycenae does seem that to me.

Edited by The Puzzler
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On 4/20/2023 at 6:48 AM, The Puzzler said:

Hello Mario. And why not?

The Doggerlanders were certainly U5 type….into Saami, Finland and Estonia, a core area is the Franco Cantabrian refuge for the split of U5 to Berber, and Saami…

Phoenicians are Finns, that’s a big Motza ball.

I’ll tell you what I found, the word Mycenae, an apparent non Greek, Pelasgian word, can only be translated into Finnic, using Linear B origin, with a meaning of City of (Death) the dead…lMycenae does seem that to me.

Thanks, i appreciate your interest.

Phoenician toponyms could have been derived from Finland/Sweden region, in this case.

Just to give an example regarding some Phoenician city states with similar names as in Tyre/Tyresö or Simyra/Simris i found yesterday:

Quote
Mario: Can you name some Phoenician city states?

Chatgpt: The Phoenicians were an ancient civilization that inhabited the coastal areas of the eastern Mediterranean, particularly in what is now Lebanon, Syria, and Israel. The Phoenicians were known for their seafaring skills and their important role in trade and commerce in the ancient world. Here are some of the major Phoenician city-states:

  1. Byblos
  2. Tyre
  3. Sidon
  4. Arwad
  5. Berytus (Beirut)
  6. Tripolis
  7. Simyra
  8. Sarepta
  9. Ugarit
  10. Carthage (located in what is now Tunisia, North Africa)

 
Mario: Do you know Simris, in Sweden? Can you state any important archaeologic, cultural and historic aspects related to the area?

Chatgpt: Yes, Simris is a village located in southeastern Sweden, in the county of Skåne. Here are some of the important archaeological, cultural, and historical aspects related to the area:

  1. Prehistoric monuments: There are several prehistoric monuments in the Simris area, including several Bronze Age burial mounds and stone circles. One of the most famous is the Kiviksgraven (Kivik Cairn), a large Bronze Age burial mound located near the village of Kivik, which is about 10 kilometers southeast of Simris. The Kivik Cairn is one of the largest prehistoric monuments in Sweden, and is believed to date back to around 1400 BCE.

  2. Viking Age settlements: There is evidence of Viking Age settlements in the Simris area, including several rune stones that date back to the 10th and 11th centuries CE. One of the most notable is the Stora Hammar stone, which is located near the village of Simris and features an inscription in Old Norse that describes the exploits of a Viking warrior named Hróðfari.

  3. Agriculture and horticulture: The Simris area is known for its agricultural and horticultural traditions, particularly its apple orchards and vineyards. The village is home to several small-scale organic farms and wineries that specialize in producing artisanal wines, ciders, and other products.

  4. Coastal location: Simris is located on the coast of the Baltic Sea, and the area has a long history of maritime trade and fishing. The village is situated near several small harbors and fishing villages, and there is evidence of fishing and seafaring in the area dating back to prehistoric times.

Mario: And Tyresö, Sweden?

Chatgpt: Yes, Tyresö is a municipality located in the county of Stockholm, Sweden. Here are some important aspects related to the area Cultural history:

The Tyresö area has a rich cultural history that dates back to prehistoric times. Archaeological excavations have uncovered evidence of settlements and burial grounds from the Bronze Age and Iron Age, and there are several ancient monuments and stone circles in the area.

 

Quote

Toponyms are an important part of cultural heritage and can provide valuable insights into the history and geography of a particular region. They can also help to preserve and promote local traditions and identity, as well as serving as markers of historical events or landmarks. In addition, toponyms can be used as a tool for geographical research, as they provide information about the distribution and movement of people and cultures throughout history.

"The Power of Place Names: Landscape, Identity and Memory in the Modern Middle East" edited by Reeva Simon and Eleanor Tejirian. This book examines the role of toponyms in shaping cultural identity and memory in the modern Middle East. (https://www.routledge.com/The-Power-of-Place-Names-Landscape-Identity-and-Memory-in-the-Modern/Simon-Tejirian/p/book/9781138185546)

 

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On 4/19/2023 at 11:36 PM, Mario Dantas said:

A while ago i began to research many different areas of interest with Chatgpt. It feels like having an army of experts in all possible fields of science and technology,

https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt

Limitations

ChatGPT sometimes writes plausible-sounding but incorrect or nonsensical answers. 

And so on.

:P

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20 hours ago, Mario Dantas said:

Thanks, i appreciate your interest.

Phoenician toponyms could have been derived from Finland/Sweden region, in this case.

Just to give an example regarding some Phoenician city states with similar names as in Tyre/Tyresö or Simyra/Simris i found yesterday:

 

"The Power of Place Names: Landscape, Identity and Memory in the Modern Middle East" edited by Reeva Simon and Eleanor Tejirian. This book examines the role of toponyms in shaping cultural identity and memory in the modern Middle East. (https://www.routledge.com/The-Power-of-Place-Names-Landscape-Identity-and-Memory-in-the-Modern/Simon-Tejirian/p/book/9781138185546)

 

I don’t think it’s that strange,,,who were the Gutians? The Phrygians….with names into Phoenician and surrounds…

The word Helios itself, an entered God with “IE” type is, hel in Finnish is a hot round disc,a Sun,  a hot stone, a stove. Rather than hel, hidden, shell, cel, ceiling true IE word…The Hellenes could even account for translation into Finnish tbh. Ones that hide. Maybe their was  a Finno Ugric language still floating in Pelasgians…travelling down from the Urals,  it’s in Hungary so why not anywhere else indeed?

Edited by The Puzzler
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@Abramelinits true lol….don’t give me that face!

No one knows who Pelasgians were…no one can read Linear A, no one knows who the Sea People are….basically no ones knows freak all.

I think it’s true. That North Sea (Doggerlander) remnants made their way into the Aegean and surrounds and bought their language and mythology.

Its why there is books called Troy in England or whatever it is….these are age old stories set wherever you like, even back to England…Doggerland. Sorry, wrong thread but get my meaning I’m sure.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Tacitus says the people who trade Amber in Niorthern Europe, specifically the Estonians speak the same language as the folk of Briton. 
whereas Tacitus wrote Germania in the first century. Tacitus, however, describes the language of Aestii as closer to that spoken in Britain than that spoken by other neighbouring tribes.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti

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8 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

  Are you all saying the Phoenicians returned to Egypt as the Hyksos to get more of their lands ? 

Not very likely imo.

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Something else:

The Medinet Habu murals depict many warriors on many ships battling against the Egyptians on ships. Many of those ships must have sunk during the battles.

Where are those sunken ships? The bottom of the Nile, the Nile delta and the Med near the delta must be littered with ancient shipwrecks.

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Next: where do these warriors show up in the records about the Sea Peoples?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollensevalleybattlefield

Quotes:

Various artifacts found in the box suggested that its owner was from South-Central Europe and had traveled hundreds of miles to the battlefield.[21]

(...)

The battle seems to coincide with a period of heightened militancy 3,250 years ago, as metal became increasingly scarce north of the Alps and populations seem to have moved.[7]

(...)

According to the researchers at the site, this would have been an astounding feat for the time, probably enabled by a central government. This would mean that socio-political development in Central Europe was more advanced and more bellicose than previously assumed,[7] roughly at a time when Egypt and the Hittites concluded their famous peace treaty. The well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to this picture of Bronze Age sophistication, pointing to the existence of a trained warrior class and suggesting that people from across Europe joined the bloody fray.

According to archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen, the battle would have taken place during an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. At around this time, the Mycenean civilization of ancient Greece collapsed, while the Sea Peoples who had devastated the Hittites were defeated in ancient Egypt. Not long after the battle at Tollense valley, the individual scattered farmsteads of northern Europe were replaced by concentrated and heavily fortified settlements.[2]

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57 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Next: where do these warriors show up in the records about the Sea Peoples?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollensevalleybattlefield

Quotes:

Various artifacts found in the box suggested that its owner was from South-Central Europe and had traveled hundreds of miles to the battlefield.[21]

(...)

The battle seems to coincide with a period of heightened militancy 3,250 years ago, as metal became increasingly scarce north of the Alps and populations seem to have moved.[7]

(...)

According to the researchers at the site, this would have been an astounding feat for the time, probably enabled by a central government. This would mean that socio-political development in Central Europe was more advanced and more bellicose than previously assumed,[7] roughly at a time when Egypt and the Hittites concluded their famous peace treaty. The well-preserved bones and artifacts add detail to this picture of Bronze Age sophistication, pointing to the existence of a trained warrior class and suggesting that people from across Europe joined the bloody fray.

According to archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen, the battle would have taken place during an era of significant upheaval from the Mediterranean to the Baltic. At around this time, the Mycenean civilization of ancient Greece collapsed, while the Sea Peoples who had devastated the Hittites were defeated in ancient Egypt. Not long after the battle at Tollense valley, the individual scattered farmsteads of northern Europe were replaced by concentrated and heavily fortified settlements.[2]

Very good, yes.

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12 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

  Are you all saying the Phoenicians returned to Egypt as the Hyksos to get more of their lands ? 

I’m saying…the precursors of Phoenicians who inhabited Egypt at Avaris as the Hyksos, pre Phoenician but same type,of Canaanite people…who had this trading post in the Delta, to trade from Canaan to Egypt, were in a sense…entitled even at the Sea People time, to inhabit this land. Much like Yahweh gave the Israelites back land, much like the United Nations gave it back…it doesn’t seem a take of new land but of old lands.

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On 4/19/2023 at 5:11 AM, The Puzzler said:

Amun was a Libyan sheep looking God, wasn’t he? 
Maybe he was the real ‘ram in a thicket’……or maybe it was Heryshaf? 
More food for thought atalante.
 

Puzzler,

tbh, Amun does not seem similar to Heryshaf.

A better match is the Resheph/Irshappa gods of the Middle East, who are known in archaeology beginning ca 3200 BCE at Ebla.  But the Resheph deities seem to be bogeys; so they were probably scattered remnants of a more ancient cult.

The following article says Resheph deities probably became known in Egypt during the 13th dynasty. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resheph#Egyptian_reception

Edited by atalante
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On 4/22/2023 at 2:27 PM, The Puzzler said:

@Abramelinits true lol….don’t give me that face!

No one knows who Pelasgians were…no one can read Linear A, no one knows who the Sea People are….basically no ones knows freak all.

I think it’s true. That North Sea (Doggerlander) remnants made their way into the Aegean and surrounds and bought their language and mythology.

Its why there is books called Troy in England or whatever it is….these are age old stories set wherever you like, even back to England…Doggerland. Sorry, wrong thread but get my meaning I’m sure.

"My" story about Doggerland takes place some 5000 years before anything Troyan...

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On 4/22/2023 at 7:07 AM, Abramelin said:

https://openai.com/blog/chatgpt

Limitations

ChatGPT sometimes writes plausible-sounding but incorrect or nonsensical answers. 

And so on.

:P

Yes that is true but when you ask for links to peer-review scientific papers, it can be incredibly extensive and assertive. Have you tried it yet? Not for the faint of heart, i guess...

When i first started, i spent a week searching and understanding what it actually was. Basically, the information available on the web is its database, and it (AI) can intelligently articulate that information pretty well. In fact so well that that is why the founders of AI are so scared of it.

Although in my view every public administration, educational center, companies, NGOs, should be empowered with this exceptionally great knowledge that has come to us. Nevertheless, the duality in life can be a b****.

I managed to "co-produce" more than 100 pages of scientific answers to specific problems, regarding Greenland being Atlantis, in less than two weeks...

But in the end it errs as we do too, and one important thing is to phrase and rephrase the question, in order to be as clear as possible.

Edited by Mario Dantas
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4 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m saying…the precursors of Phoenicians who inhabited Egypt at Avaris as the Hyksos, pre Phoenician but same type,of Canaanite people…

The Phoenicians were Canaanites, yes.

The Hyksos (AE: "foreign kings") were very probably Canaanites, or more generally: Semites.

What you are doing is like saying the Danes are Iberians because both are Europeans.

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4 minutes ago, Mario Dantas said:

I managed to "co-produce" more than 100 pages of scientific answers to specific problems, regarding Greenland being Atlantis, in less than two weeks...

I'll bet that the AI produced answers you didn't like.

If it confirmed your theory about Greenland, then by that it also confirmed what I posted about this AI before, heh.

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I thought this little titbit about the identity of one of the tribes of the Sea Peoples was rather interesting:

Merneptah states that he defeated the invasion, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners. To be sure of the numbers, among other things, he took the penises of all uncircumcised enemy dead and the hands of all the circumcised, from which history learns that the Ekwesh were circumcised, a fact causing some to doubt they were Greek.[80]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Edited to add:

Why would the Greeks be circumsized?

The habit started in the deserts as a hygienic practise. And then it became a religious thing.

Another edit:

I just read Puzz already posted that in post #203.

Final edit:

But if these Ekwesh were indeed Achaeans, then the influence of the Phoenicians/Semites on these bearers of early European civilization was a tad more than most presentday Greeks and Hellenists will be able to stomach, lol!

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)

Edited by Abramelin
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@docyabut2

You assumed that the "Teresh" were Thyrenians. But these 'Teresh' were called 'Teresh of the sea' by the Egyptians.

As far as I know these Thyrenians were Etruscans (?), and these Etruscans had been in contact with Egypt.

Meaning: these Thyrenians were not 'of the sea' and so the Teresh were not the same people as the Thyrenians.

 

Edited to add:

Hmm.... this is getting complicated:

Tyrrhenians (Attic Greek: Τυῤῥηνοί Turrhēnoi) or Tyrsenians (Ionic: Τυρσηνοί Tursēnoi; Doric: Τυρσανοί Tursānoi[1]) was the name used by the ancient Greeks authors to refer, in a generic sense, to non-Greek people, in particular pirates.[2]

Edited by Abramelin
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9 hours ago, atalante said:

Puzzler,

tbh, Amun does not seem similar to Heryshaf.

A better match is the Resheph/Irshappa gods of the Middle East, who are known in archaeology beginning ca 3200 BCE at Ebla.  But the Resheph deities seem to be bogeys; so they were probably scattered remnants of a more ancient cult.

The following article says Resheph deities probably became known in Egypt during the 13th dynasty. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resheph#Egyptian_reception

correction of date:  2200 BCE at Ebla.

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8 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The Phoenicians were Canaanites, yes.

The Hyksos (AE: "foreign kings") were very probably Canaanites, or more generally: Semites.

What you are doing is like saying the Danes are Iberians because both are Europeans.

Essentially correct. The Phoenicians and the Hebrews were both Canaanite in origin. The Phoenicians were already an established civilization well prior to the onset of the Hyksos and their migration into Egypt. At no point in AE texts or inscriptions were the two conflated as being one and the same. The Philistines, a separate group, were either Aegean or Mainland Greek in origin and possibly related to some, but not all, of the named groups falling under the general term”Sea Peoples”. 
 

cormac

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14 hours ago, Abramelin said:

You would probably love it if you knew where this Tollense Valley is located.

But that "ancient battle" may have been nothing but a heist:

https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com/2015/07/tollense-battle.html?m=1

Oh I knows where it is mate, I made a You Tube on it lol. Will read yr link ASAP.

 

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